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What if you KNEW there was a God.

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?


No. Its one thing to believe God exists. Its another to believe IN Him. Just like some people I care not befriend, thr Abrahamic God is no different.

I also do no care for any God to tell me to worship it. That is not a relationship.

I dont care for any God who has killed people in His name. That is not reverence for life He has created and told us with this life we should multiply

I dont care for a God who punishes anyone for lack of belier. Humans punish for crimes done against other people. They are told and if worse, punished after warned for belittling people by verbal harm. There is a process (should be) in American court.

God does not have that.

I dont care that He hides behind His position as "the Creator" to justify doing whatever makes him happy.

I dont care for Gods representatives misleading antitheist to believe this God is good ans justifies his anger by justice; when murder is wrong regardless the motive.

He is not someone I want to befriend even if He, I dont know, twirled the earth with one finger without us burning or freezing to death.

I do not believe Jesus is God. So, Jesus is alright but I find issues with him too. I was his friend. We let on good terms.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
It is all arbitrary and none is more praiseworthy than the other.
This is wholly true. All moral frameworks are arbitrary - all of them... even the ones purported by religion to be Universal and directly from god are nothing more than arbitrary constructs.

So what Augustus was saying (not saying I agree with him) is that he would rather use God's arbitrary morality since that one at least guarantees him safety from a lifetime of torment.
This is similar to Pascal's wager.
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a pretty seriously flawed argument, since it could equally apply to the wrath of the Magic Space Unicorns...

And that is not such a weird thing either considering that most of us abide by rules at work or in our state or country which we don't always agree with but we don't want to wind up jobless or in jail.
Sure, we abide by them because the will of the majority trumps our personal desires. But does that mean that the will of the majority is holy or comes from the perfect breath of a Space Wizard? Of course not - that would be ridiculous. Why then do we pretend like the moral framework of the world's religions comes from a similar place?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Sure, we abide by them because the will of the majority trumps our personal desires. But does that mean that the will of the majority is holy or comes from the perfect breath of a Space Wizard? Of course not - that would be ridiculous. Why then do we pretend like the moral framework of the world's religions comes from a similar place?

Who is this "we" that pretends?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
EDIT

Here are your answers. My comments below.


1. I dont lie and lust is natural, I dont act on it. Knowing God exist may only change out of Fear not love. So it wont be a good relationship. I also dont believe everyone commits sins you mentioned. People do well without belief IN God. Many people do not sin like you listed because they know God doesnt exist.

2. The only thing I can think of that is contrary to scripture is falling in love and marrying my best friend and my companion (if I have one). Love and commitment is not based on gender. It is harsh to deny a blessed marriage because their parts match.

3. That is one thing I cannot agree with God with in addition to below is forbidding me from experience love because i am not heterosexual as if heter. has a different type of love. Rediculous.

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that
video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?
No. Its one thing to believe God exists. Its another to believe IN Him. Just like some people I care not befriend, thr Abrahamic God is no different.

I also do no care for any God to tell me to worship it. That is not a relationship.

I dont care for any God who has killed people in His name. That is not reverence for life He has created and told us with this life we should multiply

I dont care for a God who punishes anyone for lack of belief. Humans punish for crimes done against other people. They are told and if worse, punished after warned for belittling people by verbal harm. There is a process (should be) in American court.

God does not have that.

I dont care that He hides behind His position as "the Creator" to justify doing whatever makes him happy.

I dont care for Gods representatives misleading antitheist to believe this God is good and justifies his anger by justice; when murder is wrong regardless the motive.

He is not someone I want to befriend even if He, I dont know, twirled the earth with one finger without us burning or freezing to death.

I do not believe Jesus is God. So, Jesus is alright but I find issues with him too. I was his friend. We left on good terms.
 
Doesn't this way of thinking seem entirely immoral, though? If you believe in morality by decree, then you don't actually believe in morality. You just believe in the dictation of rules. I will continue to believe that just because God says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so, and that my duty as a human being is above all else to my fellow human beings - not to God. I will continue to live by my own moral standards, which I believe are based on what is best for humanity. That is vastly superior to any morality that is set up by the dictates of an omniscient ruler.


Given the new reality, this is just egotistical and hubristic (something that almost all religions warn against).

You are saying that you are a better judge of morality than the person who created the universe and wrote the rule book on morality. The problem with ethics in real life is that there are no objective answers, so we use a range of tools like reason, culture, religion and tradition to help us come to a conclusion about what is ethical.

Now if it is objectively true that God exists, and that He is the Christian God (in this case) and you asked which was the 'correct' form of Christianity to follow, you introduce a number of fixed reference points into the questions of ethics.

This is the greatest, most reliable evidence possible, that which was created by a perfect being with a level of knowledge and rationality far greater to that of a mere human. Nothing could be more irrational or conceited than ignoring such evidence.

That humanity (arguably a mythical abstraction absent god anyway, but thats another point) would be best served by your 'vastly superior' subjective morality that flagrantly ignores all of the most important objective evidence is ridiculous.

It is far worse than being a flat earther or a young earth creationist who thought cavemen rode dinosaurs.

We are speaking hypotheticals of course, but if a perfect, eternal, all knowing, all powerful God really did exists and really did create you for a purpose, you would still believe that you know more than Him and that this belief is rational?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
If this happened, how do you think it would change you?
I'd be exactly the same, as already fulfilled Biblical prophecy, had God speak to me, a near death experience to verify it all.... Yet even within all that, wouldn't follow everything the Bible teaches, as i don't find its moral view point right in many places.

It has changed me in some ways, from what I'd like to be; as i can't pretend it all isn't real, and ignore that many have been mislead.... Since everything i was told from an early age, is contained within the text....Thus I have spent years trying to reach people. :innocent:
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

Well, I would be thrilled to see how God's finger looks like. And if all other explanations are more miracolus than this event, I would become a Christian, again. I would be a bit skeptical, though. At least for what concerns spiritual entities reflecting photons so that they can be recorded on video.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

I am not aware of indulging in pride and lust or lying. True, sometimes I said that someone's kid is cute, even if he is utterly ugly, but that's about it. I don't think I would preach the Gospel, I would simply show the video. If that is enough evidence then we are done, if not then the Gospel will not add anything.

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

I don't know. But eveything is possible if I am convinced that the God of the Bible exists. I might even start to endorse slavery in order to get closer to His moral high ground, who knows?

Ciao

- viole
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Given the new reality, this is just egotistical and hubristic (something that almost all religions warn against).

You are saying that you are a better judge of morality than the person who created the universe and wrote the rule book on morality.
Not "better" inherently, but at the very least I'm not going to adopt a morality out of convenience when I feel I have better reasons for following the morality that I already do. I can't just suddenly decide to "be okay" with genocide just because God tells me I should be and we arbitrarily designate God the arbiter of morality. If morality can be said to exist objectively in any way, there's no reason to assume that there couldn't be a morality than transcends God. I don't aspire to God's moral system, I aspire to something better, based on what I think are the best possible reasons for it. If God has better reasons, let God communicate those to me and I will change my mind. Otherwise, I'm not going to adopt a morality I find abhorrent just because I want some personal benefit out of it.

The problem with ethics in real life is that there are no objective answers, so we use a range of tools like reason, culture, religion and tradition to help us come to a conclusion about what is ethical.
I don't see how adding God to that problem solves it. You can't just say something is ethically true just because God says so. God is just as capable of being wrong (or, at the very least, lying) as we are.

Now if it is objectively true that God exists, and that He is the Christian God (in this case) and you asked which was the 'correct' form of Christianity to follow, you introduce a number of fixed reference points into the questions of ethics.

This is the greatest, most reliable evidence possible, that which was created by a perfect being with a level of knowledge and rationality far greater to that of a mere human. Nothing could be more irrational or conceited than ignoring such evidence.
I wouldn't be ignoring it - I'd be objecting to it. If someone tells me mass genocide is okay, I'm going to disagree with them - God or otherwise.

That humanity (arguably a mythical abstraction absent god anyway, but thats another point) would be best served by your 'vastly superior' subjective morality that flagrantly ignores all of the most important objective evidence is ridiculous.
But it isn't ignoring the best objective evidence. My morality is based on understanding and empathy, not dictates. You can't just say "This is better because he says it's better", whether or not the "he" involved is God or nor. Morality doesn't work that way.

It is far worse than being a flat earther or a young earth creationist who thought cavemen rode dinosaurs.
No it isn't, because - as I said - I'm not ignoring anything. I'd accept the consequences. I'd just disagree with God. Why would that make me wrong? Why would living a life devoted to my fellow humans, and doing the best I can for them, be doing wrong?

We are speaking hypotheticals of course, but if a perfect, eternal, all knowing, all powerful God really did exists and really did create you for a purpose, you would still believe that you know more than Him and that this belief is rational?
I wouldn't know more than them, but as a free-thinking being I am still capable of telling that supposed being that their standard of morality is wrong. As said above, God is still capable of being wrong or outright lying, even if they are perfect. They do all kinds of contradictory things in the Bible, and their moral position with regards to many issues changed over time. Whose to say God isn't just testing you all as to whether or not you'd blindly follow his instructions rather than acting in a genuinely moral fashion? I'm not saying that is a reasonable possibility, but it's still a possibility. And if that's possible, I don't see any problem with me sticking two fingers up to God and saying "you morality sucks, mine works better".
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?
Let me do some edit to the op.

------------
How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of religion X's God of him peforming his miracles?

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach religion X's Holy book? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the religion X's Holy book teaches - law, moral etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of religion X's God and the accuracy of religion X's Holy book and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?
------------

Now it's done, now you can replace religion X with any religion to prove that that religion is truth religion.

Although it's quite unconvincing proof/arguments i think.
 
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
That's quite a bold asertion. How do you know they are pretending?
Because, as you stated, all moral frameworks are arbitrary and vary depending on any number of circumstances or variables.

So regardless of how sincere anyone believes anything, or how we all derived our personal moral codes, it's all just subjective arbitrary choosing that formulated it. There's not really anything bold about the assertion. It's just how morals work.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Doesn't this way of thinking seem entirely immoral, though? If you believe in morality by decree, then you don't actually believe in morality. You just believe in the dictation of rules. I will continue to believe that just because God says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so, and that my duty as a human being is above all else to my fellow human beings - not to God. I will continue to live by my own moral standards, which I believe are based on what is best for humanity. That is vastly superior to any morality that is set up by the dictates of an omniscient ruler.

So what if....having set Man loose on the earth....and you in charge....(play god for a moment)
and Man isn't turning out to be that spiritual creature you were hoping for.....

Do you flood the earth and start over with just a handful of chosen?
Do you send angels to destroy a trend that undermines social grace?.....Sodom and Gomorrah....
Send prophets one after another....knowing they will be killed?
Turn a blind eye....to all that you can?

but then...you're not God.
you get to sit back and watch the news and post about it being somebody's fault....
and it won't be God's fault....
He seems to be sitting back as well.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Given the new reality, this is just egotistical and hubristic (something that almostall religions warn against).

You are saying that you are a better judge of morality than the person who created the universe and wrote the rule book on morality.
Not better, but as good as.

It's a tenet - perhaps THE most central tenet of the Christian faith - that humanity has acquired knowledge of good and evil. Deny this and you deny Christ's sacrifice.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

I don't think I'd like the biblical God much. It'd be too hypocritical for me to accept/pray to/worship the biblical God.

If there were a God, I'd have to hope the Bible was a corruption of the truth written by men. Seems to me that a lot of the Bible is just a collection of stories and myths. Maybe there is some truth but what are you going to do with it? Pick and choose whatever you like and discard what you don't?

Might as well create your own religious manual and fill it with whatever truths you discover for yourself.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
God is real?

*reaches for AK-47*

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

Does Jesus deliever pizza too?

my gut instinct is "I've flipped" or "there is a crazy person at my door". I'm not closed to the idea of jesus being an extraordinary human being, nor would I dismiss someone purely on the basis of being religious- its more a question of what it does. Anything more in the 'supernatural' realm would take a while for the shock to wear off. I can accept there was a guy called Jesus a long time ago and assuming he was a "good" guy, I suspect his words have been manipulated down the ages. but more than that would take time.

proof of god is still proof whether I like it or not. But I assume its impossible and leave it at that.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you?

it would raise more questions than it answers. I'd go from atheist to misotheist as the "problem of evil" almost certianly means that if god existed he'd be evil, or have a moral system well beyond my immediate comprehension. I'd be willing to accept the possibility of the latter but it would take some time as the notion of "evil" would go beyond the significance of individual suffering to some wider context of a "master plan" but it would mean he's not omnipotent. that I could live with maybe. if he were omnipotent, I'd probably consider becoming a Theistic Satanist. If god is real, so is the devil. We need all the help we can get.

Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust?

I'm bisexual, and support Free Love as coming out caused alot of mental turmoil, so condemning "lust" will be a serious cause problem. I'm a really bad liar as it is, so no worries there.

I did used to pray when I was a kid. I was very lonely, had no freinds and god was the closest thing I had to an imaginery freind. there have been moments even as an atheist when I felt the need to pray, mainly as a way to organise my thoughts, get stuff of my chest and feel some reassurance that there is justice in the world. it's a long story but battling depression asks everything of you and I'm more than aware that emotionally, atheism has its downsides. I respect sincere belief when I see it. a sense that there is order in the universe gives more security for believers to battle their demons. To feel besieged and alone is a form of hell. A loving god would know that.

Would you go preach the gospel?

I'd have to read it first, but after reading Revelations I'd say it's not promising.

Would your political views change?

Drastically. my politics kind of hinges on atheist-humanism in so far as man being the highest authority and determining his own values and is in distinctly Nietzschean territory. Gods existence would be quite a serious intrusion. I flirt with anti-theism, but I don't see the need so long as someone doesn't expect me to believe and behave as they do.

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

It depends on the God. An Omnipotent and Omnipresent god who expects my unquestioning loyalty for simply creating me can f**k off.

But I'd be open to an omniscient and omnibenevolent god. that would be very intresting person to talk too, as I'd have plenty of questions. I prefer a wise god to a powerful one. I don't respect power, but wisdom I can give a fair hearing even if I disagree with it.[/QUOTE]
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Firstly, I would thank Him for letting me know with certainty that He exists (as I've been struggling with this for the past several years). For the most part, I don't think I'd change much. I already go to church and pray every day. I also go out of my way to avoid lying. I'd definitely have a lot of questions for Him though, assuming He'd answer them.
 
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