What if you KNEW there was a God.

[Thanda]

Why would an atheist be moved by the scenario you proposed in the OP?

Why wouldn't he be?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And what would you do with those questions.

Ask God directly.

Would you start praying and asking God for clarity or would you just not be interested in talking to him?

If you consider "asking God questions directly" to be prayer, then I suppose so, yes. But I wouldn't throw myself at God's mercy, and I wouldn't take any response I intuited as a genuine response. If God can completely, unambiguously reveal their existence, then they should be able to clearly, unambiguously answer my questions without me throwing myself at their mercy.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Regardless of the carrot/stick, to say 'it wouldn't change me', requires not integrating the new reality into your thoughts. Right and wrong would be objective and based on God's will and applying your own morality would be objectively wrong. It wouldn't be heroic resistance, it would be harmful corruption.

Doesn't this way of thinking seem entirely immoral, though? If you believe in morality by decree, then you don't actually believe in morality. You just believe in the dictation of rules. I will continue to believe that just because God says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so, and that my duty as a human being is above all else to my fellow human beings - not to God. I will continue to live by my own moral standards, which I believe are based on what is best for humanity. That is vastly superior to any morality that is set up by the dictates of an omniscient ruler.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why wouldn't he be?

Well, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to be. I'm just not that kind of person.

Now, give me a clear, unquestionable manifestation of, say, Isis or Krishna or Baldur... and now you got my attention and interest!

 

[Thanda]

Well, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to be. I'm just not that kind of person.

Now, give me a clear, unquestionable manifestation of, say, Isis or Krishna or Baldur... and now you got my attention and interest!

But remember you are not an atheist, you are an anti-theist. So that makes you a little different doesn't it?

 

[LuisDantas]

But remember you are not an atheist, you are an anti-theist. So that makes you a little different doesn't it?

I am an atheist, Thanda, trust me.

What leads you to assume otherwise? Do you see anti-theism as somehow at odds with atheism?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well yes, errors and additions aside.

For the purposes of this thought experiment, is the story of the death of David and Bathsheba's son one of these "errors and additions"? Is the flood?

Being that you would now know that God lives - anything you were unsure of you could ask him if you were willing to pray.

The fact that I could ask doesn't mean I would find the explanation satisfactory. I think it's reasonable to expect that monstrous acts have monstrous motives.

 

[Thanda]

Doesn't this way of thinking seem entirely immoral, though? If you believe in morality by decree, then you don't actually believe in morality. You just believe in the dictation of rules. I will continue to believe that just because God says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so, and that my duty as a human being is above all else to my fellow human beings - not to God. I will continue to live by my own moral standards, which I believe are based on what is best for humanity. That is vastly superior to any morality that is set up by the dictates of an omniscient ruler.

While I agree with most of this it is important to realise that you doing-what's-best-for-humanity morality is just as arbitrary as God's morality (assuming for a moment that God's morality is arbitrary). I have heard some people whose morality is just doing what's best for their family. Other's also want to do what's best for nature others. Others stop with their country. It is all arbitrary and none is more praiseworthy than the other.

So what Augustus was saying (not saying I agree with him) is that he would rather use God's arbitrary morality since that one at least guarantees him safety from a lifetime of torment.

And that is not such a weird thing either considering that most of us abide by rules at work or in our state or country which we don't always agree with but we don't want to wind up jobless or in jail.

 

[jonathan180iq]

And what if you just misunderstood God?

Well yes, errors and additions aside. Being that you would now know that God lives - anything you were unsure of you could ask him if you were willing to pray.

I imagine most murderous lunatics have very good reasons for why they do what they do, right?

 

[Thanda]

I am an atheist, Thanda, trust me.

What leads you to assume otherwise? Do you see anti-theism as somehow at odds with atheism?

Not at odds, but different. From what I have been able to gather atheist don't believe in God because they have no proof. Your calling yourself an anti-theist means you have antagonism towards those that hold a belief in God regardless of the basis of that belief. I think most atheist would agree that that position is not representative of most of them.

 

[Thanda]

For the purposes of this thought experiment, is the story of the death of David and Bathsheba's son one of these "errors and additions"? Is the flood?


The fact that I could ask doesn't mean I would find the explanation satisfactory. I think it's reasonable to expect that monstrous acts have monstrous motives.

Remember the title of the thread is about knowing there is a God. Now that you KNOW (not just believe) what would you do?

If you have already made up your mind that he is evil then I guess it would be well for you to continue to ignore him.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

While I agree with most of this it is important to realise that you doing-what's-best-for-humanity morality is just as arbitrary as God's morality (assuming for a moment that God's morality is arbitrary). I have heard some people whose morality is just doing what's best for their family. Other's also want to do what's best for nature others. Others stop with their country. It is all arbitrary and none is more praiseworthy than the other.

I would say that all of those forms of morality you listed are superior to God's morality, since each of them requires some actual thought, consideration and reason rather than just the following of a strict edict. Any morality which is decided upon by a thinking mind based on an understanding of the world around them and drawn from experience and empathy is inherently superior to a morality based on the dictates and mandates handed down by a supernatural agency whose motivations we may never truly understand.

So what Augustus was saying (not saying I agree with him) is that he would rather use God's arbitrary morality since that one at least guarantees him safety from a lifetime of torment.

Then that isn't morality. It's just self-interest. If I chose to obey the laws of my oppressive government and sell-out my close friends and family members who are members of the resistance in order to avoid persecution for myself, I am not acting in a moral fashion. I would be acting in a highly immoral fashion. Following the dictates of other entities (God or otherwise) for personal gain regardless of what those dictates are is inherently immoral.

And that is not such a weird thing either considering that most of us abide by rules at work or in our state or country which we don't always agree with but we don't want to wind up jobless or in jail.

But when those rules make personal demands that we deem to be wrong or immoral, we reform those laws. Those laws are capable of change, and we are capable of not adhering to rules or laws that we believe are immoral. See my example above. Doing so may be rational to an extent, but it is certainly not moral or correct.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not at odds, but different. From what I have been able to gather atheist don't believe in God because they have no proof.

That is one of several possible reasons, many of them mutually compatible.

Your calling yourself an anti-theist means you have antagonism towards those that hold a belief in God regardless of the basis of that belief.

No, that is not at all true, either. I have no idea why you hold such an understanding of anti-theism.

Mine is that anti-theism is discouraging belief in deities of any kind. In my case, because I find the concept unhealthy and of dubious benefit.

The God of Abraham most of all, admitedly. It is almost custom-made to be disbelieved in.

I think most atheist would agree that that position is not representative of most of them.

I may well take that bet.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Not at odds, but different. From what I have been able to gather atheist don't believe in God because they have no proof.

Not quite. An atheist is ANYONE who doesn't believe in God, REGARDLESS of their reasons.

Your calling yourself an anti-theist means you have antagonism towards those that hold a belief in God regardless of the basis of that belief.

I'm not certain that's the definition of anti-theism, but then I've never seen an especially consistent definition of anti-theism anyway. In any case, anti-theism as you define it and atheism as it is defined are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be both.

I think most atheist would agree that that position is not representative of most of them.

An atheist doesn't have to be representative of atheists to be one. I doubt that majority of theists would agree that a polytheist or deist's position is representative of them, but that doesn't make them not theists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Remember the title of the thread is about knowing there is a God. Now that you KNOW (not just believe) what would you do?

I think I've already said what I'd do:

- if I was convinced that God is good, I'd reject the Bible and follow God.
- if I was convinced that the Bible is true, I'd probably find myself unable to follow God.

If you have already made up your mind that he is evil then I guess it would be well for you to continue to ignore him.

That makes about as much sense as ignoring a loose, rabid pit bull.

It seems like when you started this thread, you assumed that we could reconcile the idea that the Bible is true with the idea that God is worth following. How do *you* do it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not at odds, but different.

"Atheist" and "anti-theist" are as different as "American" and "New Yorker".

From what I have been able to gather atheist don't believe in God because they have no proof. Your calling yourself an anti-theist means you have antagonism towards those that hold a belief in God regardless of the basis of that belief. I think most atheist would agree that that position is not representative of most of them.

And most Americans are not New Yorkers. So what?

 

[Thief]

I wouldn't change a thing.

Whether your God is real or not isn't something I really care about.
If your God was real and If you had empirical evidence, then I would still reject Him.
I wouldn't deny that He exists, however, I wouldn't care that He does.

From my reading of the bible, my personal interpretations, there is nothing for me to respect of your God.
Quite the contrary, I have much to disrespect of Him and his son.

I reject God, real or not.

-

He created me? I didn't ask to be created.
He loves me? Doesn't mean I have to love him back.
I'll go to hell? Seems like a cooler place than heaven anyways.

Hell is cooler than heaven?
now that's a twist!

 

[Thief]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

if ever I saw anyone walk on water....I wouldn't let Him out of my sight.

but certainty is not dealt by what you see.
if so....you are one of the many that can be deceived.......even by yourself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hell is colder than heaven?
now that's a twist!

If the Bible is correct, Heaven is at least 80 degrees Celsius hotter than Hell:

The temperatures of heaven and Hell

 

[Thief]

If the Bible is correct, Heaven is at least 80 degrees Celsius hotter than Hell:

The temperatures of heaven and Hell

love that sunshine!