NathanShepard8888
Member
The hell fire is unquencable "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands." Mark 9.43
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What in the Hell is Hell?
- Thread starter savethedreams
- Start date
The key word here is "quench". When the bible tells us the fire will not be "quenched", it is saying that the fire will not be put out, but rather it will go out on it's on. And in the case of hell fire,,it will burn all there is to burn. Once all is consumed, it will then burn itself out.
If your house caught on fire and the Fire Department came and could not put it out, the headline might read: Fire could not be "quenched", the house was a total loss.
Keep in mind, the lake of fire takes place on the surface of the earth Revelation 20:9. And let's not forget about Sodom & Gomorrah and the "eternal fire" that destroyed those cities. If the fire was "eternal" we would still be able to see the fire and smoke coming from those Cities. So,,it is the consequences of the fire that are eternal, not the fire itself.
roger1440
I do stuff
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[2] Begging the question is closely related to circular reasoning, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
NathanShepard8888
Member
I will go with what the master said about literal, eternal, hell fire.
If you go with what the Master says,,,you will come to the knowledge of the truth,, that the wicked are destroyed. Many have believed in an eternal hell where the wicked are kept and tortured without end because of Satan's first lie in the Garden to Eve: "Ye shall not surely die" Genesis 3:4. Even God tells us that if they would have eaten from the tree of life AFTER they sinned,, they would have "lived forever" Genesis 3:22. Once Satan got men to believe that the soul is immortal,, it was even easier to get them to believe in an Eternal Torture Chamber where God houses the wicked and tortures them forever and ever. You've fallen for it,,,And it sounds as if you no longer care to find out the truth of the matter. Satan is indeed an artful foe.
If any dictator tortured someone,,we would label them a Human Rights Violator as well as a War Criminal. But suddenly,, the loving people of God are okay with their "Master" torturing people without end. And some of their own children will be the victims.
You are not rightly dividing the word of Truth. For you to believe the wicked live forever is a total rejection of God's Truth.
Jay Jay Dee is right, I studied these things intensely years ago, it is gods will for us to KNOW him with ACCURATE knowledge 1 Tim 2:4, the word here in this verse , "KNOWLEDGE" or "FULL KNOWLEDGE" in most bibles, means according to ,Vines dictionary of bible words, Pg, 348, STRONGS # 1922, "Denotes EXACT or full Knowledge, and is a strengthened form of word # 1108, a greater participation by the KNOWER in the object KNOWN, thus more powerfully influencing him" Also, THAYERS GREEK LEXICON on Pg. 237 #1922 puts the meaning as "Precise and correct Knowledge" Thus the New world translation , translates it " ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE" so yes it is of the utmost importance to get it right, it is Gods will ! At Dan 12:4 in a prophecy about the last days, he states that at the close of this system of things, TRUE knowledge would become abundant, many would rove about researching this knowledge. Daniel did not understand what he was writing down, but the angel in vs. 9 stated that this would be kept secret until the time of the END, that no one wicked would understand, but there would be those that do ! WE ARE living in that time, the knowledge is there , if you want it, just takes some work ! Your life depends on it, John 17:3Yes, he addressed the Pharisees directly, but look at what he said about his parables......
Matthew 13:34-35....."All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.” (NASB)
No, he didn't always explain his parables to the people in his audience. He explained them to his apostles. (Matt 13:36)
“Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.
After his explanations he said to them.....
Did you get the sense of all these things?” They said to him: “Yes.” Then he said to them: “That being the case, every public instructor who is taught about the Kingdom of the heavens is like a man, the master of the house, who brings out of his treasure store things both new and old.” (Matt 13:36, 51, 52)
It makes perfect sense when you are not trying to make "hell" fit into Jesus teachings.
I wish I could make you understand how much these teachings were corrupted so long ago that people today think they are Jesus' teachings...I assure you they are not.
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" can only be done whilst someone is alive and has eyes and teeth and emotions.
There are none of those things in Sheol.
This is what Solomon wrote concerning the dead....
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10...."For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
Do you see what he said? The dead don't know anything...they have no emotions....there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol. (The grave)
This is not me saying this....this is God's word telling you this.
The "unquenchable fire" is Gehenna....explained in detail already. The fires of gehenna were kept burning day and night to consume the vast amounts of refuse and dead animals and unworthy humans. It was a metaphor.
The "torment" again has to take place whilst someone is alive. The "lake of fire" in which this "torment" takes place is called "the second death" so rather than a place of eternal torment...it is a place of eternal death. Contemplating going there might get your juices stirring.
Why get mad because someone has answers? You think God wants us to take stabs in the dark about these things?
I became a JW for that very reason...I got answers to all the questions I asked....reasonable, scriptural answers. If there are unanswered questions at this point in time, then we don't have the truth. This close to the end of the system, we have to know the whole truth...not unconnected bits of it. God hasn't hidden it. The knowledge is there for all.
If you know God, then you would know that this teaching goes against everything the Bible says about him. He is a loving Father, not a cruel fiend. He has no need to keep the wicked alive only to torment them forever. Why would he? How is justice served by this?
Let's take Matthew 10:28.....
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Read it again. What does it say? The word translated "hell" in this verse is "gehenna" not hades. What happens to people in this place? They are "destroyed"....not tortured. See what happens when you have a badly translated Bible?
Now Ecclesiastes 12:7......
"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
The body returns to the dust just as God told Adam, but what returns to God is not the soul....it is the spirit.
Another meaning of the word "spirit" is "breath". "Spirit" in Greek is "pneuma" which means wind or breath. In English we use "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" to reveal the real meaning of the word. It isn't what you have been led to believe.
Without that "breath of life" Adam would not have come to life. When humans die, they sleep in the grave awaiting a resurrection. At the resurrection, God refashions the body and returns the spirit by making them breathe again.
Unless you know the true meaning of the things written in the Bible according to their original language and devoid of the misinterpretation by those who corrupted its meaning centuries ago, you will be at the mercy of the devil, who is the one who sowed the weeds of false Christianity in the early centuries. He is the one who has painted God as a cruel torturer. You know in your heart that he is not.
You should be more concerned about how they were misinterpreted in the first place. We did not reinterpret them but we went back to the original meaning. We studied the language and we put the pieces together by allowing the Bible to interpret itself.
We do believe in souls....we just take the Bible's definition. A soul is a living breathing creature...the word in Hebrew is "nephesh" and Greek "psyche" it never means a disembodied spirit. And it is never said to be immortal.
The truth is...someone has to have the answers......Jesus indicated that most people have it wrong. (Matt 7:13, 14)
I had it wrong for many years, but the more I studied the Bible, the more apparent it became that corruption set in a very long time ago and what most people accept as Christian teaching today, is nothing of the sort.
This is not an "I'm right and you're wrong" kinda post...this is me pleading with you and others to see the truth about this subject.
All I can ask is that you pray about it. If these explanations make any kind of sense, follow up with more questions. You deserve answers! ......as we all do.
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Isn't Mark 9:43 a metaphor just as at Matthew 5:29-30 where Jesus is metaphorically speaking. Jesus was Not advocating self-mutilation but stressing being willing to cut out of one's life anything that would be spiritually harmful. Such as cut out the works of the flesh - Galatians 5:19-21
The English word hell translated there is from the word Gehenna. Gehenna was just a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever, Not kept burning forever.
Gehenna comes from the Hebrew word 'geh hin.nom' meaning " Valley of Hinnom" west and south of Jerusalem which was used to incinerate refuse including dead criminal bodies.
So, Gehenna is a fitting symbol of complete destruction - 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31 B - as in the wicked will be: destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
How can biblical hell be eternal when God resurrected the dead Jesus out of hell - Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Acts of the Apostles 2:27 - otherwise Jesus would still be in hell.
Also, how can the Bible's hell be eternal, when everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' KJV resurrected out of hell ?______ Revelation 20:13-14
Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. The definition of the lake of fire is: second death.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' Revelation 21:8
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction. As in the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
NathanShepard8888
Member
They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Matthew 25.46
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery Hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
In this verse, the same word, "eternal," is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, Jude 12-13
Hell is literal, eternal fire. Eternal punishment prepared for Satan and his angels. However the unjust can experience it too in the resurrection.
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery Hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
In this verse, the same word, "eternal," is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, Jude 12-13
Hell is literal, eternal fire. Eternal punishment prepared for Satan and his angels. However the unjust can experience it too in the resurrection.
Nathan,,, The scripture you quoted says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered "eternal fire".
If you believe "eternal fire" burns forever,,, why aren't the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah still ablaze today? Shouldn't we be able to see the flames and the smoke if you believe the fire to be eternal?
Or could it be, that,, it is the consequences of the fire that are eternal and not the fire itself?
NathanShepard8888
Member
So,,,, "eternal fire" killed them in this life,,,and it went out,, but in the next life,, it won't go out and the people won't die?
Is that what you are believing and teaching?
Also,, if the wicked live forever in some flames,,,that would mean sin and sinners will always exist in God's universe?
Are you also teaching that God was not able to purify His universe from sin?
Do you also believe the soul is immortal? Because , if you believe the wicked are conscience and alive forever in hellfire being tortured,, you must also believe the soul does not die?
Do you also believe the soul does not die?
NathanShepard8888
Member
It was Yeshua who taught hell is a place of eternal punishment in hell fire. I am simply posting what he said.
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Mr. Beebe. I must say that although I do not agree with all your theology, I do admire the fact that your denomination gathers to worship without the threat of eternal torture. That is very different from the brand of Christianity I grew up in.
Nathan,, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. Nor are you able to answer the questions that I posed to you.
If you were posting what Jesus said,, you would be able to answer my questions and not be confounded. But you can't. And you have to reject many, many scriptures that says the wicked are destroyed,,turned to ash,, stubble. cut off,,, that they vanish into smoke..... Yet, you somehow believe they don't burn up,, that they have eternally wicked bodies that God's "eternal fire" cannot even burn up? Really?
It seems your mind is made up, and you are determined to ignore scripture and reason and stick to your false teaching that God will torture those who reject Him without end.
Believe as you desire. But God's Bible doesn't agree with you.
That's okay,, I didn't agree with it either when I first heard about it. This is what I Believe: If we are sincere, and ask God to lead us to the truth. He will do it. I can only tell you what the Bible teaches on these topics. I know my bible, and I know in Whom I believe.
"....If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8
Do you know what word is translated "hell" in Mark 9:43-48?
" If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (NASB)
The footnotes in the NASB read "Gehenna" as the Greek word translated "hell" in this passage.
If you knew what "gehenna" was, you would know that it is a metaphor for eternal destruction, not eternal suffering.
"Gehenna" is the valley of Hinnom, which was just outside the walls of Jerusalem. It was the city's garbage dump where dead animals were thrown along with the bodies of executed criminals, burned up along with the city's refuse. Fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (or sulphur) so as to consume everything that was unwanted.
Whatever the fires missed, the maggots would finish off. This is what Jesus spoke about. The Jews knew exactly what he meant.
Jesus was alluding to the fact that anyone consigned to "gehenna" was not worthy of a decent burial and hence had no burial tomb inscribed with name and family lineage. This in turn conveyed the idea that God would not remember them in the resurrection promised when Messiah's kingdom was established. Nothing living ever went into gehenna. It was the symbol for everlasting death, not eternal suffering.