What in the Hell is Hell?

[savethedreams]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

 

[JayJayDee]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

All good points! But from a strictly "Abrahamic" viewpoint "hell" is "Sheol" (Hebrew) or hades (Greek)

The Hebrew Scriptures do not portray Sheol as anything but mankind's common grave. There is no conscious existence in this place. "The dead know nothing" (Eccl 9:5, 10) Belief in an immortal soul that lives on after death is borrowed from pagan religious belief and a desire in man to go on living....somewhere. But in the Bible death is death and return to the ground, just as God told Adam. God gave him breath and he became a living soul...God took his breath away and he died.(Gen 2:7; 3:19) The soul is not immortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

All prospects for future life in the OT were by means of a resurrection back to life on earth in the flesh. Jesus himself demonstrated a few himself. When he brought his friend Lazarus back to life, he told his disciples that he was just "sleeping" (John 11:11-14)

There is no torment after death for all the reason you stated.

 

[Thana]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

No idea.
I suppose you could read Luke 16:19-31 to hear about the rich man's experience of hell. It doesn't go into the detail I think you're wanting though.

Oh and the post above me, It's not an Abrahamic viewpoint, It's a Jehovah's Witness viewpoint. Just thought I should clarify since Jay doesn't look like she will.

Christians (Catholic and Protestant alike) and some Jew's believe in Hell being an actual place. Although their Jewish beliefs say hell is temporary, Whereas Christians believe it to be eternal.

 

[Katzpur]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

I really don't know Jewish, Muslim or Baha'i position on the subject, but the vast majority of Christians do believe in a physical resurrection, or the reuniting of the eternal spirit with a new physical (although not mortal, as we know it) body. For Christians who do believe in a literal fiery Hell (Mormons do not), they totally see the body as feeling "burning fire" and physically suffering torment for eternity. For Mormons, Hell is simply the absence of the glory of God and an existence entirely devoid of His presence -- which, for us, would be Hell enough.

 

[JayJayDee]

No idea.
I suppose you could read Luke 16:19-31 to hear about the rich man's experience of hell. It doesn't go into the detail I think you're wanting though.

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. It cannot be taken literally for very good reasons. Jesus was a Jew, giving an illustration to a Jewish audience. They had no belief in hell as a place of conscious torment. Hell was "sheol" which to a Jew is simply the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10) Jesus did not teach untruths to his Jewish listeners. He used their scriptures to reinforce what he taught. Never did he mention an immortal soul....in fact, there is not one single passage of scripture that mentions those two words side by side...ever. The soul is the mortal person as a whole being.

Oh and the post above me, It's not an Abrahamic viewpoint, It's a Jehovah's Witness viewpoint. Just thought I should clarify since Jay doesn't look like she will.

On the contrary.....it is a very "Abrahamic" view. Christendom's version of "hell" is Greek, not Jewish.
The "Abrahamic" view does not support the existence of human spirits. Spirits mentioned in the scriptures were either angels or demons...neither of which were former sons of Adam. All spiritistic practices were forbidden is Israel. (Deut 18:9-12)

Christians (Catholic and Protestant alike) and some Jew's believe in Hell being an actual place. Although their Jewish beliefs say hell is temporary, Whereas Christians believe it to be eternal.

The modern Jews have a very different belief about hell than the ancient Jews did. The Jewish Scriptures teach resurrection, not the survival of an immortal soul that can feel or see or participate in any kind of "afterlife".
The soul dies when man dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

 

[JFish123]

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery Hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
Eternal fire is real. Jesus said that it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about Hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into Hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important because it saves people from eternal damnation.
Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the Hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).
In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.
This world is full of suffering mainly because of the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
God’s love does not compel Him to eliminate the necessary punishment and consequence for sin, but instead compels Him to offer us a way to avoid this consequence altogether. By offering forgiveness through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross (who took our punishment), God demonstrated His love for us. It cannot be said that a loving God would never create a place like Hell if that same God has provided us with a way to avoid it which is through Jesus Christ.

 

[Thana]

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. It cannot be taken literally for very good reasons. Jesus was a Jew, giving an illustration to a Jewish audience. They had no belief in hell as a place of conscious torment. Hell was "sheol" which to a Jew is simply the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10) Jesus did not teach untruths to his Jewish listeners. He used their scriptures to reinforce what he taught. Never did he mention an immortal soul....in fact, there is not one single passage of scripture that mentions those two words side by side...ever. The soul is the mortal person as a whole being.

I disagree. You call it a parable, But I don't see much of a lesson in it, if it's to be taken figuratively.

On the contrary.....it is a very "Abrahamic" view. Christendom's version of "hell" is Greek, not Jewish.
The "Abrahamic" view does not support the existence of human spirits. Spirits mentioned in the scriptures were either angels or demons...neither of which were former sons of Adam. All spiritistic practices were forbidden is Israel. (Deut 18:9-12)

I guess you just ignore the verses that say "Eternal punishment" then?

The modern Jews have a very different belief about hell than the ancient Jews did. The Jewish Scriptures teach resurrection, not the survival of an immortal soul that can feel or see or participate in any kind of "afterlife".
The soul dies when man dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Well I wouldn't know, Although I'm loathe to take scripture out of context and build an entire theory out of one sentence.

 

[McBell]

Oh and the post above me, It's not an Abrahamic viewpoint, It's a Jehovah's Witness viewpoint. Just thought I should clarify since Jay doesn't look like she will.

JWs are not an Abrahamic belief?
one wonders why you would be so quick to make that claim and then fail to further explain your own odd ball out views?

 

[Thana]

JWs are not an Abrahamic belief?
one wonders why you would be so quick to make that claim and then fail to further explain your own odd ball out views?

JW's are under that umbrella term, But the belief in a metaphoric hell isn't a universal Abrahamic belief, Which is what I wanted to clarify.

 

[JayJayDee]

I disagree. You call it a parable, But I don't see much of a lesson in it, if it's to be taken figuratively.

To a Jewish audience it meant a great deal. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favour with God.

The Pharisees (pictured by the rich man) had that favored position until Christ came. He did not go to the Pharisees with his message because he already knew that they were wicked. He denounced them as hypocrites at every opportunity. The beggar (picturing the common folk whom the spiritual shepherds neglected) changed places when Jesus kindly offered them the opportunity to become his disciples.
The Pharisees were condemned to "gehenna" (eternal death) and the common Jews who had become lost and malnourished, came to life under the loving care of a true shepherd. Both "died" as to their former positions. It is a powerful parable.

I guess you just ignore the verses that say "Eternal punishment" then?

Of course I believe in eternal punishment...I just don't believe that it is conscious. The Jewish view of death was that they would rest in their tombs until the rule of Messiah's kingdom when they believed that God would resurrect them. They had no belief in going to heaven....all of the promises God made to them were on earth. Even as Jesus was being taken up to heaven, they still thought he was going to set up his kingdom there and then. (Acts 1:6)

Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Why would God have to punish the wicked eternally? Why would he bother keeping them in existence only to do that? This is contrary to his justice and his personality.

Have you ever done a study on "gehenna"? This word is translated as "hell" the same as "hades" in most Bibles. Many people have no idea what it means because the two words are treated as if they mean the same thing.....big mistake.

Hades is not gehenna and vice versa. The dead come out of hades when it is emptied by Jesus. (Rev 20:13) death and hades are then hurled into the "lake of fire" (another name for gehenna) Think about it for a moment.....if the lake of fire was a literal place, how could death and hades be thrown in there?

When Jesus spoke about "gehenna" he was alluding to the Valley of Hinnom, which was a huge garbage dump just outside the walls of Jerusalem. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the fire for cremation, not torture. The flames were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulphur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. When a person was not considered worthy of a decent burial he was left without a memorial tomb with his name and family lineage inscribed there. This to a Jew of that time was pictorial of that person not being remembered by God in the resurrection. No tomb = no resurrection. Gehenna therefore pictured eternal death...or as the "lake of fire" is described" as "the second death". This is a death from which no one returns. Satan and his demons will end up there as will any whom God declares as unworthy to become a citizen of his kingdom.

Well I wouldn't know, Although I'm loathe to take scripture out of context and build an entire theory out of one sentence.

This is why we must know what the entirety of scripture says. There is no immortal soul in the OT. There is none in the NT either. Souls are living breathing creatures in the Bible, just like Adam. He was not "given" a soul, but "became" one with the "breath of life". When Adam ceased to breathe, he returned to the dust. The soul Adam was dead.

JW's are under that umbrella term, But the belief in a metaphoric hell isn't a universal Abrahamic belief, Which is what I wanted to clarify.

No...it became an universal Abrahamic belief when the Jews and Christians apostasized from the truth of God's word.
As I said...belief in an immortal soul is Greek...not Hebrew.

 

[DawudTalut]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

Peace be on you. Here are some related quotes.
"According to the Holy Quran, there are three states of existence. The first is the world, the name of which is the first creation and the house of earning. In this world a person earns good or ill. There is progress in good in the hereafter, but that is through the pure grace of God. It has nothing to do with a person's effort.

The second state of existence is called barzukh (Purgatory) . In Arabic idiom barzukh is that which is situated between two things. As this state of existence lies between the first creation and the resurrection, it is called barzukh. This expression has always been used for the intervening state. It thus is a great testimony in support of the existence of the intervening state....

Barzukh is the state when the temporary human formation is dissolved and the soul and the body are separated from each other.... Though this mortal body is separated from the soul after death, yet in the intervening state every soul is temporarily invested with a body so that it might experience the result of its actions. That body is not like the earthly body, but is prepared from light or darkness according to the actions of each person. It might be said that in that state a person's actions serve as his body. In the Word of God, this is mentioned several times and some bodies are described as bright and some as dark, which are prepared from the light or from the darkness of actions. This is a mystery but is not beyond reason. A perfect person can acquire a bright body in this very life, apart from his earthly body, and there are many illustrations of it in the state of visions.

....

Barzukh is followed by a state of existence which is called resurrection. At that stage every soul, good or bad, righteous or disobedient, will be bestowed a body. That day has been appointed for the perfect manifestation of God when every person shall become acquainted fully with the existence of his Lord and shall arrive at the extreme point of his recompense.

.....

The condition of a person after death is nothing new. It is a clear representation of his life in this world. The condition of a person's beliefs and actions, righteous or unrighteous, is hidden inside him in this world and its poison or antidote influences him in a secret way. In the life after death all these will become manifest. One experiences a sample of it in dreams. In a dream, one observes the conditions which prevail at the time in one's body. When one is heading towards high fever, one beholds fire and flames of fire in one's dream and when one is about to suffer from influenza, one finds oneself in water in a dream. Whatever disorder one's body is ready for is personified in one's dreams. The same is the case in the life after death. As a dream produces a change inside us and demonstrates our spiritual condition in a physical form, the same will happen in the life after death and our deeds and their consequences will be physically demonstrated and whatever we carry with us from this world in a hidden manner will all appear openly on our countenances on that day. "
@ https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/chap16/chap16.html
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/essence/chap16/chap16.html

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"To enter heaven it is necessary to have a body, but that body will not be compounded of physical elements inasmuch as the fruits of heaven will not be physical, but will be a new creation. Therefore, the body in heaven will also be a new creation which will be different from the original body."
@https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/chap17/chap17.html
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/essence/chap17/chap17.html

===========


"The concept of hell and heaven in Islam is completely different from the normally held view. Hell and heaven are not two different places occupying separate time and space. According to the Holy Quran, the heaven covers the entire universe. 'Where would be hell then?' enquired some of the companions of the Holy Prophet. 'At the same place', was the answer, 'but you do not have the faculty to understand their coexistence.' That is to say in ordinary human terms, they may seem to occupy the same time-space, but in reality because they belong to different dimensions, so they will coexist without interfering and inter-relating with each other."

"....an unhealthy soul would create an unhealthy body for the new soul of the hereafter...."

"When we refer to mind or soul in comparison to our carnal body, there is a vast difference in the nature of their existence, which is almost inconceivable. "

"There is no way we can measure the distance between the soul and the carnal body. In terms of rarity, the soul even in our crudest perception, is so rare and ultra-refined that in no way can it be likened to the body that it occupies. Now try to conceive the scenario of the birth of a soul within the soul over a period of billions of years. At the end of a long day, we find a soul within a soul, which would have the same comparison in terms of rarity as a human soul here on earth has with the human body. Something similar to this will take place, and in relative terms, the future existence of life would also have two states combined into one entity. In relative terms, one state would be like body and the other like soul. In comparison to our bodies, our soul would appear like a body to the newly evolved essence of existence."

"....each individual creates his own hell or his own heaven, and in accordance with his own state each heaven differs from the other person's heaven, and each hell differs from the other person's hell, though apparently they occupy the same space and time in otherworldly dimensions.

What happens to man's soul between the time of his carnal death and his resurrection on the Day of Judgement? The Holy Prophet (sa) is reported to have said that after our death windows will open up in the grave; for the pious people, windows open from heaven, and for the wicked people they open towards hell. However, if we were to open up a grave, we would not find any windows! So literal acceptance of these words will not convey the true meaning of this subject. It is impossible that the Holy Prophet (sa) should ever misinform us, hence here he had to be speaking metaphorically. Had it not been so, then every time we dig up a grave, we should find windows, either opening into hell, or letting in the fragrant and pleasant air of paradise. But we witness neither of these. So what do the Holy Prophet's words mean?

The grave is actually an intermediary phase of existence between this life and the life to come. Here, spiritual life will progress gradually through many stages until it reaches its ultimate destiny. Then by the Command of Allah, a trumpet will be blown, and the final spiritual form will come into being. In this interim period, different souls would pass through a semblance of heaven or hell before reaching their final stage of perfection, fit and ready to be raised into a completely transformed entity."

"To understand the second creation, we need to understand the way a baby takes shape in a mother's womb. .......more @
Life After Death
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/study-of-islam/life-after-death.html

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Al Islam Ahmadiyya - Media Library - Audio and Video Archive
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/r.php?q=HEAVEN%20HELL%20SOUL%20GRAVE%20RESURRECTION

 

[Thana]

To a Jewish audience it meant a great deal. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favour with God.

The Pharisees (pictured by the rich man) had that favored position until Christ came. He did not go to the Pharisees with his message because he already knew that they were wicked. He denounced them as hypocrites at every opportunity. The beggar (picturing the common folk whom the spiritual shepherds neglected) changed places when Jesus kindly offered them the opportunity to become his disciples.
The Pharisees were condemned to "gehenna" (eternal death) and the common Jews who had become lost and malnourished, came to life under the loving care of a true shepherd. Both "died" as to their former positions. It is a powerful parable.

Why?
Jesus told the Pharisee's how He felt about them and their ways, He was straightforward and didn't need to hide it in a metaphor.

He told parables so that the common people could understand His message, He didn't make them hard to understand or vague or with some secret hidden meaning. And when He was against something or someone, He said so, plainly and fiercely.

Your interpretation makes no sense.

Of course I believe in eternal punishment...I just don't believe that it is conscious. The Jewish view of death was that they would rest in their tombs until the rule of Messiah's kingdom when they believed that God would resurrect them. They had no belief in going to heaven....all of the promises God made to them were on earth. Even as Jesus was being taken up to heaven, they still thought he was going to set up his kingdom there and then. (Acts 1:6)

Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Why would God have to punish the wicked eternally? Why would he bother keeping them in existence only to do that? This is contrary to his justice and his personality.

Have you ever done a study on "gehenna"? This word is translated as "hell" the same as "hades" in most Bible's. Many people have no idea what it means because the two words are treated as if they mean the same thing.....big mistake.

Hades is not gehenna and vice versa. The dead come out of hades when it is emptied by Jesus. (Rev 20:13) death and hades are then hurled into the "lake of fire" (another name for gehenna) Think about it for a moment.....if the lake of fire was a literal place, how could death and hades be thrown in there?

When Jesus spoke about "gehenna" he was alluding to the Valley of Hinnom, which was a huge garbage dump just outside the walls of Jerusalem. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the fire for cremation, not torture. The flames were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulphur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off. When a person was not considered worthy of a decent burial he was left without a memorial tomb with his name and family lineage inscribed there. This to a Jew of that time was pictorial of that person not being remembered by God in the resurrection. No tomb = no resurrection. Gehenna therefore pictured eternal death...or as the "lake of fire" is described" as "the second death". This is a death from which no one returns. Satan and his demons will end up there as will any whom God declares as unworthy to become a citizen of his kingdom.

Okay, so you're reinterpretating the 'Eternal Punishment' part and ignoring the 'Weeping and gnashing of teeth', 'Unquenchable fire' and not to mention Revelations 20:10 ".....and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I mean, There are many more but I'm sure you have answers for those aswell.

I don't want to believe in hell. I don't think anyone does. And I don't understand the why of it. But I won't ignore the bible, I won't pretend, I'll face it and accept it and just trust God. Because if I don't trust God and accept His word, How can I ever truly do His will or hear His call?

This is why we must know what the entirety of scripture says. There is no immortal soul in the OT. There is none in the NT either. Souls are living breathing creatures in the Bible, just like Adam. He was not "given" a soul, but "became" one with the "breath of life". When Adam ceased to breathe, he returned to the dust. The soul Adam was dead.

Matthew 10:28? Ecclesiastes 12:7?
I'm honestly afraid to even imagine how you reinterpret those.

No...it became an universal Abrahamic belief when the Jews and Christians apostasized from the truth of God's word.
As I said...belief in an immortal soul is Greek...not Hebrew.

I've never really had a proper conversation with JW's, Until this very thread I didn't even know you guys didn't believe in souls.
But I guess it's always the same with every denomination... "We're the ones who have it right." "We're the ones who really understand the bible." "We're the ones who actually have the answers."

 

[savethedreams]

I feel as though my question has not be really answered.

 

[Aiviu]

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"? He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

That even if you find a way which saves yourself from oblivion. You will be given a feel and a thought. Hell will fool your feel as if you were home. Hell will poison your thoughts that you might be coming home. Hell in this case, is you. That and all what you think truth is, you have to surrender . And you certainly will.

 

[savethedreams]

That even if you find a way which saves yourself from oblivion. You will be given a feel and a thought. Hell will fool your feel as if you were home. Hell will poison your thoughts that you might be coming home. Hell in this case, is you. That and all what you think truth is, you have to surrender . And you certainly will.

Who or What will give me a 'feel' and 'thought'?

 

[Aiviu]

Who or What will give me a 'feel' and 'thought'?

Its a self-imagined (heart). Even if the feel is truely given, it lays buried below your selfish thoughts which triggers the feel, yourself wants to have.

 

[JayJayDee]

Why?
Jesus told the Pharisee's how He felt about them and their ways, He was straightforward and didn't need to hide it in a metaphor.

Yes, he addressed the Pharisees directly, but look at what he said about his parables......

Matthew 13:34-35....."All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.” (NASB)

He told parables so that the common people could understand His message, He didn't make them hard to understand or vague or with some secret hidden meaning. And when He was against something or someone, He said so, plainly and fiercely.

No, he didn't always explain his parables to the people in his audience. He explained them to his apostles. (Matt 13:36)

“Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.

After his explanations he said to them.....

Did you get the sense of all these things?” They said to him: “Yes.” Then he said to them: “That being the case, every public instructor who is taught about the Kingdom of the heavens is like a man, the master of the house, who brings out of his treasure store things both new and old.” (Matt 13:36, 51, 52)

Your interpretation makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense when you are not trying to make "hell" fit into Jesus teachings.

Okay, so you're reinterpretating the 'Eternal Punishment' part and ignoring the 'Weeping and gnashing of teeth',

I wish I could make you understand how much these teachings were corrupted so long ago that people today think they are Jesus' teachings...I assure you they are not.

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" can only be done whilst someone is alive and has eyes and teeth and emotions.
There are none of those things in Sheol.

This is what Solomon wrote concerning the dead....
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10...."For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

Do you see what he said? The dead don't know anything...they have no emotions....there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol. (The grave)

This is not me saying this....this is God's word telling you this.

'Unquenchable fire' and not to mention Revelations 20:10 ".....and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The "unquenchable fire" is Gehenna....explained in detail already. The fires of gehenna were kept burning day and night to consume the vast amounts of refuse and dead animals and unworthy humans. It was a metaphor.

The "torment" again has to take place whilst someone is alive. The "lake of fire" in which this "torment" takes place is called "the second death" so rather than a place of eternal torment...it is a place of eternal death. Contemplating going there might get your juices stirring.

I mean, There are many more but I'm sure you have answers for those as well

Why get mad because someone has answers? You think God wants us to take stabs in the dark about these things?
I became a JW for that very reason...I got answers to all the questions I asked....reasonable, scriptural answers. If there are unanswered questions at this point in time, then we don't have the truth. This close to the end of the system, we have to know the whole truth...not unconnected bits of it. God hasn't hidden it. The knowledge is there for all.

I don't want to believe in hell. I don't think anyone does. And I don't understand the why of it. But I won't ignore the bible, I won't pretend, I'll face it and accept it and just trust God. Because if I don't trust God and accept His word, How can I ever truly do His will or hear His call?

If you know God, then you would know that this teaching goes against everything the Bible says about him. He is a loving Father, not a cruel fiend. He has no need to keep the wicked alive only to torment them forever. Why would he? How is justice served by this?

Let's take Matthew 10:28.....

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Read it again. What does it say? The word translated "hell" in this verse is "gehenna" not hades. What happens to people in this place? They are "destroyed"....not tortured. See what happens when you have a badly translated Bible?

Now Ecclesiastes 12:7......

"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

The body returns to the dust just as God told Adam, but what returns to God is not the soul....it is the spirit.

Another meaning of the word "spirit" is "breath". "Spirit" in Greek is "pneuma" which means wind or breath. In English we use "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" to reveal the real meaning of the word. It isn't what you have been led to believe.

Without that "breath of life" Adam would not have come to life. When humans die, they sleep in the grave awaiting a resurrection. At the resurrection, God refashions the body and returns the spirit by making them breathe again.

Unless you know the true meaning of the things written in the Bible according to their original language and devoid of the misinterpretation by those who corrupted its meaning centuries ago, you will be at the mercy of the devil, who is the one who sowed the weeds of false Christianity in the early centuries. He is the one who has painted God as a cruel torturer. You know in your heart that he is not.

I'm honestly afraid to even imagine how you reinterpret those.

You should be more concerned about how they were misinterpreted in the first place. We did not reinterpret them but we went back to the original meaning. We studied the language and we put the pieces together by allowing the Bible to interpret itself.

I've never really had a proper conversation with JW's, Until this very thread I didn't even know you guys didn't believe in souls.

We do believe in souls....we just take the Bible's definition. A soul is a living breathing creature...the word in Hebrew is "nephesh" and Greek "psyche" it never means a disembodied spirit. And it is never said to be immortal.

But I guess it's always the same with every denomination... "We're the ones who have it right." "We're the ones who really understand the bible." "We're the ones who actually have the answers."

The truth is...someone has to have the answers......Jesus indicated that most people have it wrong. (Matt 7:13, 14)
I had it wrong for many years, but the more I studied the Bible, the more apparent it became that corruption set in a very long time ago and what most people accept as Christian teaching today, is nothing of the sort.

This is not an "I'm right and you're wrong" kinda post...this is me pleading with you and others to see the truth about this subject.

All I can ask is that you pray about it. If these explanations make any kind of sense, follow up with more questions. You deserve answers! ......as we all do.

 

[Thana]

Yes, he addressed the Pharisees directly, but look at what he said about his parables......

Matthew 13:34-35....."All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.” (NASB)

No, he didn't always explain his parables to the people in his audience. He explained them to his apostles. (Matt 13:36)

“Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.

After his explanations he said to them.....

Did you get the sense of all these things?” They said to him: “Yes.” Then he said to them: “That being the case, every public instructor who is taught about the Kingdom of the heavens is like a man, the master of the house, who brings out of his treasure store things both new and old.” (Matt 13:36, 51, 52)



It makes perfect sense when you are not trying to make "hell" fit into Jesus teachings.


I wish I could make you understand how much these teachings were corrupted so long ago that people today think they are Jesus' teachings...I assure you they are not.

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" can only be done whilst someone is alive and has eyes and teeth and emotions.
There are none of those things in Sheol.

This is what Solomon wrote concerning the dead....
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10...."For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

Do you see what he said? The dead don't know anything...they have no emotions....there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol. (The grave)

This is not me saying this....this is God's word telling you this.


The "unquenchable fire" is Gehenna....explained in detail already. The fires of gehenna were kept burning day and night to consume the vast amounts of refuse and dead animals and unworthy humans. It was a metaphor.

The "torment" again has to take place whilst someone is alive. The "lake of fire" in which this "torment" takes place is called "the second death" so rather than a place of eternal torment...it is a place of eternal death. Contemplating going there might get your juices stirring.



Why get mad because someone has answers? You think God wants us to take stabs in the dark about these things?
I became a JW for that very reason...I got answers to all the questions I asked....reasonable, scriptural answers. If there are unanswered questions at this point in time, then we don't have the truth. This close to the end of the system, we have to know the whole truth...not unconnected bits of it. God hasn't hidden it. The knowledge is there for all.



If you know God, then you would know that this teaching goes against everything the Bible says about him. He is a loving Father, not a cruel fiend. He has no need to keep the wicked alive only to torment them forever. Why would he? How is justice served by this?

Let's take Matthew 10:28.....

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Read it again. What does it say? The word translated "hell" in this verse is "gehenna" not hades. What happens to people in this place? They are "destroyed"....not tortured. See what happens when you have a badly translated Bible?

Now Ecclesiastes 12:7......

"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

The body returns to the dust just as God told Adam, but what returns to God is not the soul....it is the spirit.

Another meaning of the word "spirit" is "breath". "Spirit" in Greek is "pneuma" which means wind or breath. In English we use "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" to reveal the real meaning of the word. It isn't what you have been led to believe.

Without that "breath of life" Adam would not have come to life. When humans die, they sleep in the grave awaiting a resurrection. At the resurrection, God refashions the body and returns the spirit by making them breathe again.

Unless you know the true meaning of the things written in the Bible according to their original language and devoid of the misinterpretation by those who corrupted its meaning centuries ago, you will be at the mercy of the devil, who is the one who sowed the weeds of false Christianity in the early centuries. He is the one who has painted God as a cruel torturer. You know in your heart that he is not.



You should be more concerned about how they were misinterpreted in the first place. We did not reinterpret them but we went back to the original meaning. We studied the language and we put the pieces together by allowing the Bible to interpret itself.



We do believe in souls....we just take the Bible's definition. A soul is a living breathing creature...the word in Hebrew is "nephesh" and Greek "psyche" never means a disembodied spirit. And it is never said to be immortal.



The truth is...someone has to have the answers......Jesus indicated that most people have it wrong. (Matt 7:13, 14)
I had it wrong for many years, but the more I studied the Bible, the more apparent it became that corruption set in a very long time ago and what most people accept as Christian teaching today, is nothing of the sort.

This is not an "I'm right and you're wrong" kinda post...this is me pleading with you and others to see the truth about this subject.

All I can ask is that you pray about it. If these explanations make any kind of sense, follow up with more questions. You deserve answers! ......as we all do.

I should reply to everything you've said since you've taken the time to write it, and I will, but I have to know one thing first.

You describe a God that allows the existence of Eternal hell as a 'Cruel fiend' which implies, to me, that if hell did exist, You wouldn't be able to believe in God anymore.
So I guess I'm asking, Does your faith depend on you being right?

 

[DawudTalut]

I feel as though my question has not be really answered.

Peace be on you...Could you plz re-read # 11.


AGAIN

A person lives a very , less than righteous lifestyle, full of greed, anger and such. He dies and goes to hell? From a Abrahamic standpoint, what would be 'Hell"?

1=In general, one can say 'He dies and goes to hell' BUT God is the Master, He knows in depth thus we can not be really sure what will happen to the person...... What if, God considered person's real circumstances and forgave him!

2=Quran says:

[101:10] Hell will be his nursing mother.
Plz read note # 4825

The Holy Quran

He doesn't have a body anymore so, he can't feel 'burning fire'. He can't see, due to not having a body so he can't see 'fire'. So , USING THE BIBLE/QURAN/HOLY BOOK , what part of the person is tortured in hell, without a body?

Without a brain, body, memories, feelings and physical attributes What is really of a 'person' to send to HELL? Wouldn't the be a completely diffrent person or not them?

Physical body disintegrates into elements of earth. [Sometimes, physical body does not remain safe as in plane crash or other catastrophe]
Soul leaves and goes to God.
= It will have all memories
=It will be given some kind of non-physical Body and special feelings.
More verses (index) about Hell @ The Holy Quran



Please read verse 14 and note 1599

The Holy Quran

Thus record will be present with soul.
Things will not be physical as that time will be time of full manifestation [complete dimensions, not limited physical three.]

Thank you.

 

[JesusBeliever]

He told parables so that the common people could understand His message, He didn't make them hard to understand or vague or with some secret hidden meaning....

Sorry, that's not true!
[VERSE=Matthew 13:10-17,ASV][VERSENUM]10[/VERSENUM] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

[VERSENUM]11[/VERSENUM] And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[VERSENUM]12[/VERSENUM] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.

[VERSENUM]13[/VERSENUM] Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[VERSENUM]14[/VERSENUM] And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: [VERSENUM]15[/VERSENUM] For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

[VERSENUM]16[/VERSENUM] But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.

[VERSENUM]17[/VERSENUM] For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.[/VERSE]