What is a perfect religion?

[logician]

He was the only perfect human being.

Actually, he never existed, any more than Mithras.

 

[zoe and vic]

There were more witnesses to the life of Jesus Christ than there were to George Washington. How do we know George Washington existed?

 

[Magic Man]

There were more witnesses to the life of Jesus Christ than there were to George Washington. How do we know George Washington existed?

Because we have a lot more accounts of his life, and documents that he personally signed, and paintings of him, and children that he had...should I go on, or is this sufficient?

 

[zoe and vic]

Because we have a lot more accounts of his life, and documents that he personally signed, and paintings of him, and children that he had...should I go on, or is this sufficient?

Do you not realize this evidence must be proven authentic. And we don't have more accounts of the life of George Washington than Jesus. We have testimony.

And the documents he signed could be forgeries and the paintings could be someone else completely. And his supposed children could be perpetrating a lie to continue having the power they wield by being children of George Washington.

The discourse is immutable without rules to determine authenticity and giving those rules authority in determining what they are designed to determine.

"The remarkably low rate of variation between the thousands of NT manuscripts should not surprise us. Remember the early Christians who passed on the Scriptures were copying the sacred texts they used for teaching, praying and worship. Indeed, they believed they were copying the very Word of God Himself. These manuscripts were copied with great care and reverence. In sum, the NT is the most reliable text we have from antiquity...

If the New Testament is not trustworthy, then no writings from the ancient world can be considered reliable - not Cicero, not Homer, not Plato, not Caesar. If we can't trust the NT manuscripts, then all university history and classics departments across the country should be shut down because they have no reliable documents from which to teach!"

"There are more surviving manuscripts of the NT than there are of any other piece of ancient literature."

"The oldest surviving manuscripts of most of the ancient Greek authors are dated at least 700 years or more after the author's original work."

 

[Scott C.]

I'm paraphrasing here, but one whose central tenet is: "Shut up about your beliefs and rules, and act in compassion towards others" would be perfect, IMO.

Suppose for a moment that all of the following occurred. If you don't believe in these ideas, I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief for the purposes of this post:

1. You are living in the time and place of Jesus Christ during his life.
2. He is a real person.
3. You meet Jesus and He asks you to follow HIm.
4. You go with Him.
5. You observe Him heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead.
6. You have a personal revelation from the Holy Sprit that He is God's Son.
7. You witness His crucifixion.
8. You take his dead body to the tomb.
9. You're very sad at the loss.
10. You're gathered together with other friends while mourning His death.
11. Jesus suddenly appears in the room.
12. He asks you to touch and feel him and the marks in his hands and feet.
13. He tells you that he has been resurrected from the dead.
14. You spend time with Jesus over the next several weeks and he continues to teach you of His Father and the things of God and heaven.
15. Jesus looks you in the eyes and asks you to tell everyone in the world about what you have experienced. He tells you that this message is critical for every human being, the message that salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ.
16. He reminds you to share the message in love and humility and not with shouting or arrogance.
17. He tells you to be compassionate and loving and giving to all whether they accept the message or not.
17. You witness Jesus literally ascend into the skies and disappear before your eyes.
18. You see angels and they tell you that one day Jesus will return in the same way that he just left.
19. There are several others who shared all of these experiences with you and together you confirm that each of you saw, heard, and felt the same things.

Now, would you do as Jesus asked you to do? Would you share His message with everyone or would you keep quiet about it all, not wanting to push your views on anyone or not wanting to sound like you think you know it all? Or would you try to find ways to peacefully share the message and try to find those who are interested?

Just how much would you be willing to give of yourself in support of this cause?

Again, I'm asking for an answer from the point of view that you did indeed have all of these experiences.

 

[Tau]

Hijacked....grr.

 

[Magic Man]

Zoe and Vic, you could find all the same problems you mention with the evidence we have of Jesus. The big difference is that more evidence would have to be faulty or false in George Washington's case, and there's no reason for people to make up the personage of him. In Jesus's case, there is a very good reason for him to be made up, and there isn't much that would have to be a hoax or false.

Scott C.- Wasn't Jesus's message to act with compassion towards others? I would think that even if your whole scenario happened to someone, they would still be acting out Dopp's perfect religion by following Christ.

Tau- I'm sorry things have gotten so off-topic. My perfect religion would be basically like Doppelganger's. I would also include exercises or ideas to help promote individual thinking and growth, in promoting the questioning of everything.

 

[Scott C.]

Scott C.- Wasn't Jesus's message to act with compassion towards others? I would think that even if your whole scenario happened to someone, they would still be acting out Dopp's perfect religion by following Christ.

Dopp's perfect religion includes the tenet to "shut up about your beliefs and rules". My question was would he (or others) still feel that way given the scenario I provided.

 

[Magic Man]

Dopp's perfect religion includes the tenet to "shut up about your beliefs and rules". My question was would he (or others) still feel that way given the scenario I provided.

Right, but, as I see it, the main belief and rule promoted by Christ was to act with compassion towards others. To me that is the belief and the rule, and so you can "shut up about it" and just do it. The best way to teach is through action.

 

[McBell]

Dopp's perfect religion includes the tenet to "shut up about your beliefs and rules". My question was would he (or others) still feel that way given the scenario I provided.

As a matter of fact I would.
Why?

"Mind what people do as well as what they say, for their actions can betray a lie."
​

Right, but, as I see it, the main belief and rule promoted by Christ was to act with compassion towards others. To me that is the belief and the rule, and so you can "shut up about it" and just do it. The best way to teach is through action.

Post #18

 

[Scott C.]

Right, but, as I see it, the main belief and rule promoted by Christ was to act with compassion towards others. To me that is the belief and the rule, and so you can "shut up about it" and just do it. The best way to teach is through action.

I agree that the best way to teach is through action or by example. You have no argument there. I just interpreted Dopp's comment as "anti-proselyting", which maybe it wasn't. I do believe that the Lord wants the gospel spread by word of mouth, even though setting an example is the most powerful way to teach.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree that the best way to teach is through action or by example. You have no argument there. I just interpreted Dopp's comment as "anti-proselyting", which maybe it wasn't. I do believe that the Lord wants the gospel spread by word of mouth, even though setting an example is the most powerful way to teach.

I think his comment was "anti-proselytizing", but only in the "Don't tell me what I can and can't do in my personal life" way. People can learn all they need to about your message by seeing how you do things. So, if you just go about treating others with compassion, that's going to rub off on them. The rest of the dogmatic stuff is unimportant, as long as people are loving each other and treating each other with compassion.

 

[McBell]

I agree that the best way to teach is through action or by example. You have no argument there. I just interpreted Dopp's comment as "anti-proselyting", which maybe it wasn't. I do believe that the Lord wants the gospel spread by word of mouth, even though setting an example is the most powerful way to teach.

There is a difference between advertising it and shoving it down anothers throat.
I know of no one who likes a pushy sales man.

 

[Scott C.]

There is a difference between advertising it and shoving it down anothers throat.
I know of no one who likes a pushy sales man.

Agree!:bow:

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

>What is a perfect religion?

IOV ALL the great religions, as originally revealed, were perfect!

It's human tampering and corruption that alters this.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[YmirGF]

Hi!

>What is a perfect religion?

IOV ALL the great religions, as originally revealed, were perfect!

It's human tampering and corruption that alters this.

Regards,

Bruce

In that case, even the Baha'i faith is already out of sync. "Thanks for playing. Next please."
Seriously though, I would suggest that the Baha'i POV is nothing short of naive.

 

[arthra]

In that case, even the Baha'i faith is already out of sync. "Thanks for playing. Next please."
Seriously though, I would suggest that the Baha'i POV is nothing short of naive.

Thanks for your post Ymir..

Just curious to know how you think it is "out of sync".

For me having a balance of progressive social principles and mystical life is an important characteristic of the "perfect religion"... I agree with Bruce when he noted above that the great religions as originally revealed were perfect. They still have I believe the same spiritual message but each had important social teachings that were suited to the times they were revealed in.

- Art

 

[Tau]

Thanks for your post Ymir..

Just curious to know how you think it is "out of sync".

For me having a balance of progressive social principles and mystical life is an important characteristic of the "perfect religion"... I agree with Bruce when he noted above that the great religions as originally revealed were perfect. They still have I believe the same spiritual message but each had important social teachings that were suited to the times they were revealed in.

- Art

Define perfect....is it perfect that Christianiy teaches the doctrine of hell or Islam that of Martyrdom?

 

[idea]

Define perfect....is it perfect that Christianiy teaches the doctrine of hell or Islam that of Martyrdom?

Heaven and Hell are relative terms - neither would exist without the other. Would you be content to an existence where everything was the same - no heaven, no hell, no joy, no sorrow, no pain, no pleasure? No pain, no gain. It is the spice of life. The point is to give us life - not some lifeless unchanging everything is the same existence... something with depth and breadth and height - not a singularity if that...

good and evil are relative terms - the reference frame that makes sentient existence possible.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is ano law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not bthere is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and alearning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be cacted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

 

[arthra]

Define perfect....is it perfect that Christianity teaches the doctrine of hell or Islam that of Martyrdom?

Hell as a concept is probably misunderstood and taken to be a literal place in some traditions.. What it really connotes for Baha'is is distance from God. We could play games with definitions a long time.. How you define perfect or what can be perfect or how close to perfect are all matters for debate but what defines perfection for you could be more important I think.

Martyrdom is another interesting concept.. Is it martyrdom to blow oneself up on a crowded bus? or does a true martyr give their lives in service to their fellow man.

- Art