What is a soul? Can it die?

[Levite]

Do you think that souls exist? We exist, so we are made of something. But is our existence tied to this body, or are we something separate, something that will survive our physical deaths?

Maybe the only way for the soul to be immortal is if the soul is composed of some kind of matter and energy that cannot be broken down. Say, a special kind of particle whose parts can't be separated. If it can be broken down, then this creates some interesting possibilities. If our soul is broken down, what happens to the separate pieces that have broken off? Just as a figurative example, say that our souls are like houses built of 100 pieces of lego. If we disassemble them, would we cease to exist? What if we just take out 1 piece? What if each piece would be used to build a different house in 100 different cities across the world. Would there be 100 of 'us'? Will we cease to exist one day, or are we immortal?

I think that if we do have souls that they are somewhere in our brains lol. Because, people can lose other body parts and still be themselves. But if their brains are damaged enough then they may change into a kind of vegetative state. One would wonder if their souls had been damaged, because they no longer seem to really 'be there', but instead would be unresponsive to any stimulai and just stare at a wall all day. If their soul was still there, would it be aware of the situation? Or would it just be conscious in a very basic way, without any thoughts or memories at all? If we do have souls, then why don't we remember anything before we were born? Are our souls only conscious when combined with a brain, and a sufficiently advanced one at that? Do worms have souls? Or are they more like little machines that are 'living' out their lives according to their genes which act as a kind of computer program?

I think there are many levels of soul. All living things have a tiny, tiny spark of the Divine Energy powering them. The more complex and self-aware a being is, the more of a complex and powerful soul it has. I don't think animals or plants have complex souls. Plants and small animals have barely more than just the Divine spark powering them. Large complex animals have enough soul to support a kind of rudimentary individuality. People, and other self-aware, reasoning beings, have souls that are immortal, and individual, and retain all of the impressions from every lifetime we spend on this mortal plane, as well as from our time in the Other World, between lives.

I think the interface between soul and body lies in the energy of the brain. When the brain's functions deteriorate beyond a certain point, or are harmed beyond a certain point, the tethers of the soul begin to break free, and the levels begin separating from the physical world, until all of them ultimately break free, the body dies, and the soul transits to the Other World, or to its next lifetime in a body.

Since the soul is ultimately composed of Divine energy and human energy that is given a minute element of transcendent quality, I don't believe any force except God could harm or shatter a soul's integrity.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

In the Baha'i view, once the soul is created, it lives eternally, proceeding after the death of the body to the Next Life, where it endures forever, constantly drawing nearer to God there through His infinite Love and Mercy (this spiritual nearness is the definition of Heaven).

Best!

Bruce

 

[Troublemane]

I believe that the soul is not a thing which can be measured or put into a cup, but its a dimension of the self. Its a dimension orthogonal to the other 'physical' dimensions of space time and energy, but it is real. You can try and live your life without it, but its like trying to live in a house with just two dimensions---a facade, which looks pretty from the front but no space to live inside.

So does the soul die when the physical body dies? Maybe you could call it that. But as the self really only exists while these atoms are in this arrangement, then doesnt the self die all the time? To be renewed as something else?

Maybe just as the body dies and is transformed into worm food, so the "soul" or spiritual self returns to the spiritual world from which it was made. In this way maybe concsciousness is recycled, just as our biomatter gets recycled here. :angel2:

 

[Penumbra]

But as the self really only exists while these atoms are in this arrangement, then doesnt the self die all the time? To be renewed as something else?

Not really, no. Most of our cells are indeed recycled every several years, but our DNA in every cell remains virtually consistent throughout our lifetime and some of our core brain neurons stay with us through life.

 

[YmirGF]

I guess my post (#18) wasn't worthy of the slightest serious consideration.

Oh well, what would I know...


*sniffle*

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I think the soul is that multi-layered group of experiences of an individual.

Will that die? I'm not sure. It has yet to happen.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I am made of energy and am a personality energy essence, that is, energy that knows itself to be.

I like that.

One could ask a worm.

Unless the early bird is on time.

 

[Troublemane]

Not really, no. Most of our cells are indeed recycled every several years, but our DNA in every cell remains virtually consistent throughout our lifetime and some of our core brain neurons stay with us through life.

Now a person may have the same 'DNA' coding their entire life, but does that make them the same 'person' their entire life? I would say no. Neither is their atoms in the same arrangement moment to moment, year to year.

Consider a baby, 2 years old. Now consider a teen-ager, then a 50-year old, then a 70-year old. Are these the same person? Any more than an acorn and a tree can be considered the same? I don't think so.:no:

 

[Troublemane]

Or perhaps something else that, as of yet, remains somewhat undefined. In a clinical sense, what is called the soul is a collection of consciousness units though the emotional reality of said units may be somewhat offended by being called such as the term ignores the rich emotional connectivity between said units. There is far greater interplay between these aspects of consciousness than the casual observer might imagine.

I do like the term "consciousness unit". If we could only get a measurement of it, like how much consciousness does it take to cause X, then we could derive a definition of the CU that even the most reductionist materialist would accept!:yes:

 

[Copernicus]

When it comes to identity and self-awareness, we have the illusion of being one person, because the brain focuses many competing centers of awareness. Consider the fact that your autonomous nervous system controls your breathing. Most of the time, you are never fully conscious of taking breaths, but you can bring that aspect of your person into awareness.

In individuals who have had the corpus callosum severed, it is possible to prove that two distinct centers of consciousness exist, yet those individuals still think of themselves as a single thinking being. Information that coordinates the two centers of consciousness no longer passes through the corpus callosum, but communication does occur when both sides of the body are experiencing the same thing--e.g. looking at the same object. If you block the two eyes from seeing the same events, then only one side of person is aware of events seen by that side. There is no way for one side to share what it sees with the other.

It is best to think of a mind as a colony of interacting nodes of awareness. The dominant node may shift around. We become slightly different people under different circumstances. Perhaps people who suffer from multiple personality disorder represent a case where the mechanism that shifts the focus of awareness has gone awry. In any case, identity itself can be something of an illusion. There is more to us than just the focus of attention that commands our bodies at any given moment.

 

[839311]

Now a person may have the same 'DNA' coding their entire life, but does that make them the same 'person' their entire life? I would say no. Neither is their atoms in the same arrangement moment to moment, year to year.

Consider a baby, 2 years old. Now consider a teen-ager, then a 50-year old, then a 70-year old. Are these the same person? Any more than an acorn and a tree can be considered the same? I don't think so.:no:

The consciousness seems to remain the same. I think Im still the same person I was yesterday, or many years before. Maybe not, though. It just may seem that way because I have my memories, some of which can potentially remain intact for the rest of my life. But if I did have a different consciousness, a different soul residing in me than I had, say, 10 years ago, would I know?

So, I guess one of the points I am getting at is, could we lose our 'souls' and still be us, with our memories? Are our memories, knowledge and wisdom what makes us 'us'? Is our physical bodies us, and our 'consciousnesses' interchangeable? Could souls just be one of the basic fuels for our existence?

Say you lose your soul somewhere along the way, maybe in a car accident. You go into a coma. When you are fed intravenously the body begins to regenerate the matter/energy that the soul, or consciousness, is made up of, because the food and liquids you are given contain all the necessary nourishment required for the rebuilding of the soul. Then, 5 days after the accident you wake from your coma. You are still you, because your memories and information weren't damaged in the accident, which may really be who 'you' are - however, your consciousness is different, made up of new energy.

Perhaps the soul consciousness as well as the memories and information are both a part of who we are. Say, the soul is roughly 1/2 of who we seem to be and the memories and information is the other half. If you lose only 1/2, say, your soul, but your body later regenerates the soul, you would only be down to 1/2 of who you originally were. Now, say in a future accident your memories and information are damaged. Now the only thing driving your life is the regenerated soul, which wasn't the same one that you had at birth. So, you wouldn't be you anymore at all. You would no longer exist. Even if you could form new memories, and to your friends and family it would appear that you are the same peson, it would really be a different being.

Perhaps the soul is something more durable. Maybe the soul consists of most of the energy flowing through our bodies. While everyday some of this energy is lost, it only represents a small part of the whole, which is then replaced when you eat something and the body uses the matter and energy to replace the lost parts. So everyday you might lose, say, 2% of your whole being, which is quickly replaced. There would be more than enough of you left everyday for you to continue to be you. Over time, this 2% change every day would add up to significant changes. While you would think you would be you because the change in your composition came gradually, in reality there might only be a slight amount of you left that was present all those years ago. You might be a totally different being, with a consciousness that is made up of matter and energy that is almost completely different than it was years ago.

 

[Penumbra]

Now a person may have the same 'DNA' coding their entire life, but does that make them the same 'person' their entire life? I would say no. Neither is their atoms in the same arrangement moment to moment, year to year.

Consider a baby, 2 years old. Now consider a teen-ager, then a 50-year old, then a 70-year old. Are these the same person? Any more than an acorn and a tree can be considered the same? I don't think so.:no:

The two year old, the teenager, the 50 year old, and the 70 year old are indeed different, but all linked. It's a stream of consciousness contained within the same body. They share genes (which have an effect on personality) and they share a body, even though parts of that body change. Some aspects of their personality will remain with them throughout their lifetime.

They all have the same childhood, and then the teenager, 50-year-old and 70-year old all have the same adolescence, and then the 50-year old and the 70-year old both have the same mid-life, and so forth. Each sliver of time within the life of this individual is in part constructed by all previous slivers of time.

-Lyn

 

[ahmed.zafar]

Soul is just like a heart it exist in us but we can't control it.The main difference between soul and heart is that heart can be replaced by other people heart but souls can't be changed. Our soul remembers everything even if it lefts our body...

 

[blueman]

Our soul consists of the mind,will and emotions and is eternal.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Take away all the parts of you that are real, and what's left of you is your soul. And no it doesn't die - it exists eternally.

 

[logician]

There is no essence separate from the physical body. When you die, you're dead. Evolution has proven this over and over.

 

[BruceDLimber]

On the contrary: there is no way that science--evolution included--CAN address theological matters, the Next Life included!

So it necessarily remains silent on the topic and can say nothing whatever about it.

Bruce

 

[839311]

On the contrary: there is no way that science--evolution included--CAN address theological matters, the Next Life included!

So it necessarily remains silent on the topic and can say nothing whatever about it.

Bruce

I agree. Even if humanity, using science, discovers everything that can possibly be discovered by us, that still won't mean that there aren't parts of reality that are beyond our ability to ever reach and understand. Other dimensions, perhaps. Other planes. Completely different realms of existence that will remain a mystery to us. The possibilities are as deep as mystery itself.

Perhaps in one of these dimensions the gods exist, beings of incredible power who can control our reality completely, if they were to so choose. But while they could interact with our reality, in ways that would not be possible for us to detect, we would not even know of their dimension because it would be impossible for us to ever detect or study it in any way. I think there is always room for faith, even for the gods. In the same way that we could be limited to detecting and studying only parts of reality, they may be limited as well. Maybe there are other gods in other dimensions who can control their dimensions. :run:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

On the contrary: there is no way that science--evolution included--CAN address theological matters, the Next Life included!

So it necessarily remains silent on the topic and can say nothing whatever about it.

Bruce

Yet, as a non-scientist, there's nothing stopping me, personally, from telling everyone what a load of crap such ideas are.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Yet, as a non-scientist, there's nothing stopping me, personally, from telling everyone what a load of crap such ideas are.

Hostility and wishful ideology are two different things.
Perhaps a debate on the equality of their nature?

You spew hostility, they spew fanciful ideology.