What is antitheism?

[ratikala]

namaskaram gambit ji

What is anitheism?

Wikipedia defines "antitheism" as the "active opposition to theism." If you consider yourself to be an antitheist, why are you actively opposed to theism?

from conversations I have had with Anti theists , it seems that Anti theism is as warped as the forms of religious of fundamentalism that they claim to abhor , ...the sadest thing which seperates Anti theists from Atheists and Agnostics , is the self rightiousness and hypocracy , the Atheist simply dosent beleive , the Agnostic is unsure , both of these have the human decency allow others their own experiences and opinions , ... but the Anti theist is so convinced of their position that they would happily deny others even the moderate theist of a system that provides them with the answer to the many problems of this life and affords them the support to become a better human being .

I wouldnt mind if they were merely spoke out against Religious Fundamentalism that I could understand but there is a tendancy to tar all theists with the brush of dangerous fundamentalism .

 

[LuisDantas]

I asked you this before, Ratikala, but I honestly don't remember the answer: how can an antitheist deny anyone their beliefs?

And for the record, I still think you are seriously misrepresenting antitheism, possibly because you misunderstand what it is.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm commonly befuddled by your identification as an anti-theist as well, Luis. While I certainly don't expect others to see things the same way I do, I will not use the term anti-theist (or anti-atheist for that matter) as a designator for anything other than venomous bigotry and hatred for what those groups perceive to be theism and atheism respectively.

Of course, at the end of the day, I still find the distinction between "theist" and "atheist" to be almost entirely useless given the diversity of god-concepts, which then, by extension, makes "positions" like anti-theism or anti-atheism also rather useless. Each to their own dictionary, I guess. It's what we all end up doing anyway.

 

[SkepticX]

... the Atheist simply dosent beleive , the Agnostic is unsure , both of these have the human decency allow others their own experiences and opinions , ... but the Anti theist is so convinced of their position that they would happily deny others even the moderate theist of a system that provides them with the answer to the many problems of this life and affords them the support to become a better human being .

I'm pretty anti-theistic because of the presumption and faux certainty and the harm that's enabled by that mindset (and because it steals credit for the natural connections we make with each other simply because we're fellow humans which also diminishes the experience). That doesn't mean I'm claiming some sort of certainty myself.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

I'm pretty anti-theistic because of the presumption and faux certainty and the harm that's enabled by that mindset

I notice here we have the word presumption criticaly used against theists , ......followed by the the presumption , ...''that mind set'' ..... as if assuming that all theists are the same ?

 

[SkepticX]

I notice here we have the word presumption criticaly used against theists , ......followed by the the presumption , ...''that mind set'' ..... as if assuming that all theists are the same ?

In that all theists are theists, yes. But when speaking of a group one does speak generally, and there should be no confusion that not all members of the group are included in total and in detail, otherwise we couldn't ever really say much about groups and categorizations would be useless.

Here though, I'm assuming all theists are theists.

--

I thought I'd add that I'm not fond of presumption regardless of whether it comes from theists or non-theists. I tend to disagree with presumption even if I agree with the conclusion presumed. The quality and integrity of the process that produces the conclusion (which should always be tentative even if only in theory) is what's important. The conclusion is secondary because a sound process tends to correct errors, and an unsound process doesn't, particularly if presumption is an active part of that process.

 

[Politesse]

We're all anti- something. I don't think criticizing beliefs you consider bad is necessarily wrong.

I do dislike those who give free reign to religious prejudices, because like many other things, one's religious inclination is: a.) not generally a matter of free choice, unless you think people just so happen to choose from the alternatives available to them in their place and historical moment, and b.) a very plastic form of identity. You don't actually know a lot about a person from the religious labels they wear. So I suppose anti-theism is perfectly valid position in theory, but being anti-theist as a permanent identity is probably a bit dickish. I'm not an athiest or animist, but I don't go about labelling myself anti-atheist or anti-animist; that's closing a dialogue, not opening it, and closing dialogue is usually a fool's game in my experience.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm commonly befuddled by your identification as an anti-theist as well, Luis.

Uh, what?
Time for me to unleash the kraken, or something, perhaps?

Honestly, you caught me on complete surprise here.

While I certainly don't expect others to see things the same way I do, I will not use the term anti-theist (or anti-atheist for that matter) as a designator for anything other than venomous bigotry and hatred for what those groups perceive to be theism and atheism respectively.

So "anti" somehow means hateful opposition instead of just opposition? I don't think that is an usual or proper reading of the prefix.

Of course, at the end of the day, I still find the distinction between "theist" and "atheist" to be almost entirely useless given the diversity of god-concepts, which then, by extension, makes "positions" like anti-theism or anti-atheism also rather useless. Each to their own dictionary, I guess. It's what we all end up doing anyway.

Indeed... but by my reading, that is one of the reasons to discourage relying on the concept of deity.

 

[Bunyip]

I would define anti-theism as the position of believing that theism is a negative, a social evil so to speak.
I don't think it infers any kind of 'venomous bigotry' or hatred whatsoever. No more than being theist necessitates venomous bigotry and hatred.

 

[Politesse]

I would define anti-theism as the position of believing that theism is a negative, a social evil so to speak.
I don't think it infers any kind of 'venomous bigotry' or hatred whatsoever. No more than being theist necessitates venomous bigotry and hatred.

If someone was going around arguing that atheism was a social evil that needed to be opposed, wouldn't you be a bit concerned that they might be espousing bigotry? I would.

 

[Bunyip]

If someone was going around arguing that atheism was a social evil that needed to be opposed, wouldn't you be a bit concerned that they might be espousing bigotry? I would.

No, as an atheist that has always been the case - for at least 2000 years. In fact atheism has only become legal in modern times. It carried the death penalty across Europe for more than a 1000 years, and still does in some Islamic states. All my life I have been told that I ill burn in hell, that I hate god and had people just assume I was evil.
I would be more interested in listening to what the person in question says FIRST and declaring them to be a bigot only after I had done so.

 

[Politesse]

No, as an atheist that has always been the case - for at least 2000 years. In fact atheism has only become legal in modern times. It carried the death penalty across Europe for more than a 1000 years, and still does in some Islamic states. All my life I have been told that I ill burn in hell, that I hate god and had people just assume I was evil.
I would be more interested in listening to what the person in question says FIRST and declaring them to be a bigot only after I had done so.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Because that kind of talk has, for centuries, been backed up by state violence, you now don't worry about it? "Declaring bigotry" might be an extreme response, but prejudice on the basis of religious preference is always dangerous.

 

[Bunyip]

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Because that kind of talk has, for centuries, been backed up by state violence, you now don't worry about it?

Correct, I got over it years ago. But it does make me see religion as a social evil, from experience.

 

[psychoslice]

Well there has been a lot of bad things happening because of theism throughout history, so why wouldn't one keep an eye on anything to do with theism, some of us have to keep them honest.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Well there has been a lot of bad things happening because of theism throughout history, so why wouldn't one keep an eye on anything to do with theism, some of us have to keep them honest.

Badness is a human trait not exclusive to religion , ....in all honesty the majority of human ''Badness'' stems from human greed , ....the biggest failings in mankind are greed averice something most religions speak out against ....and what of corruption and power hngriness , are these also not traits that are present everywhere ? ....isnt politics equaly to blaimworthy in this respect ?

and amongst those who claim to be religious , these who act Badly are the ones who do not have a clear understanding of their religion .

in just the same way that not all Muslims are bad the majority are paecfull loving and good people it is just fundamentalism that we have to fear .

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

In that all theists are theists, yes. But when speaking of a group one does speak generally, and there should be no confusion that not all members of the group are included in total and in detail, otherwise we couldn't ever really say much about groups and categorizations would be useless.

Here though, I'm assuming all theists are theists.

but not all theists are bad , not all theists behavethe same , , ....so why the 'ANTI' ...?

[qoute]I thought I'd add that I'm not fond of presumption regardless of whether it comes from theists or non-theists. I tend to disagree with presumption even if I agree with the conclusion presumed.[/quote]

would you not agree then thay Anti theism is a prejudice based upon an assuption ?

and that this is unhealthy ?

the quality and integrity of the process that produces the conclusion (which should always be tentative even if only in theory) is what's important. The conclusion is secondary because a sound process tends to correct errors, and an unsound process doesn't, particularly if presumption is an active part of that process.

objective not subjective , ...therefore one can say this one person in question is a bad theist , but one canot say all theists are bad , ....

surely this lacks the integrity of unbiased and fair observation ?

 

[Breathe]

Not sure why you see my position as patronising exactly. Is it particularly different from the certainty that, say, some people have that monotheism is better than polytheism?

Because it's that "think about it!" aspect, as if theists don't question. We do.

It does however mean that they should speak their minds and be given reason to reconsider when reasonably possible.

Not that I quite understand the comparison.

Indeed, but when the person you are speaking with opposes your belief, or even right to believe, it's not going to be good.

... but this does not follow.

It does; hatred is not conductive.

I am definitely an antitheist in my mind. For good or worse.

Then you are the exception, not the rule.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would define anti-theism as the position of believing that theism is a negative, a social evil so to speak.
I don't think it infers any kind of 'venomous bigotry' or hatred whatsoever. No more than being theist necessitates venomous bigotry and hatred.

Hear.

 

[LuisDantas]

If someone was going around arguing that atheism was a social evil that needed to be opposed, wouldn't you be a bit concerned that they might be espousing bigotry? I would.

That is not a hypothetical, not for me at least, and I assume for many other forum users. It is bigotry, and more than a bit silly as well.

Nor is that symetrical to antitheism, either.

The symetry would exist if you described someone making a point of saying that people should attempt to believe in God for their own good. That would be opposing ("being anti-") the possibility of atheism. Therefore, anti-atheism.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is difficult to read this post of yours as an elaboration of the previous one (the jump is rather unnatural), but I will make an attempt.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Because that kind of talk has, for centuries, been backed up by state violence, you now don't worry about it?

1. Religious oppression was and to a degree is very much a reality. It does worry me and is one of the reasons why I engage in anti-theism.

2. Anti-theism, and in fact atheism itself even, is naturally anathema to religious oppression, some currently popular strands of thought not withstanding.

"Declaring bigotry" might be an extreme response, but prejudice on the basis of religious preference is always dangerous.

Oh, right, you seem to think that there is some sort of prejudice or discrimination in holding the opinion that theism should be discouraged.

Yes, perceiving specific people or groups as bigoted is rather extreme (in that it should only be expected when there is a lot of clear evidence) by the parameters of anti-theism.

That however is a rather strong contrast to what would otherwise be the comparable situation regarding theism. Mainly because many theistic doctrines explicitly teach to mistrust "outsiders" to some degree or another, theism has a hugely strong affinity to declaring others bigoted than anti-theism does.

As for prejudice on the basis of religious preference, I suppose it is indeed dangerous in a sense. But you must keep in mind what exactly that means. Prejudice is making judgements without taking applicable facts into account, after all. It is hardly an actual objection to anti-theism.