That's entirely fair and I would agree that internally-held beliefs are meaningless (from a social context) unless they are related to others in some way. Given, however, the existence of atheistic religions, I think we need to be careful about conflating theisms with religions.
Good eye! Yeah, you caught me on that one. I was assuming Western/Middle Eastern/Judeo-Christian theism. I suspect the OP is too, but I agree it's a worthy distinction to make. It also highlights the fact that when we talk about religion we tend to really talk about
Religion--a reified conceptual version of the beastie that exists separately from the mind that's not real. In reality religion is just a category of human thought and behavior--it's just us--part of our nature. In my experience that really can't be emphasized enough, and I think it's only one step removed from your point there.
Various behaviors that seem to emerge from certain types of theism do indeed bother me, but it is very difficult to trace causality.
Agreed. Our religious nature is an enabler, not the source of the bad behavior in those cases. There's never a Religion that can be at fault--it's always just us. But our religious nature and the institutions that have developed around it are a very powerful enabler.
Usually when I look at it, I realize that it really has little do do with theism (or atheism). Instead of pointing the finger of blame where it doesn't belong, I aim to identify more precisely what it is that bothers me; frequently the causal variables trace to other ideas or factors that are universal to human psychology and social interactions. For example, I have to put up with the same crap that blog writer complains about in that article you linked to. Why? I'm still a theist. But I'm not the "right" kind of theist, apparently. If we were to survey people and ask them if they would vote for someone identifies as a Druid and Witch for president, what do you think those numbers would look like?
Yup ... again a solid point. This also gets into why traditional religious/biblical faith is a sham, but I'll reserve those comments for the sake of the topic. All I can really say here is that I completely agree, except that I do think attaching one's personal sentiments to The Ultimate Authority is pretty key to making it as effective an enabler as it is, even if The Ultimate Authority is a fabrication as long as we can sell ourselves on the notion (especially the nasty ones because they need it--we don't need excuses to behave well and to be good neighbors). So I do think theism is uniquely a problem in that way. While this kind of nonsense is often attached to the state as well, the state is here, now, and
can have a say in the matter (for whatever it's worth), whereas that's not the case with gods.
What I find especially tragic about anti-theism is that it's a stance that alienates potential allies. It creates barriers, an "us vs. them" mentality.
That's probably true in a lot of cases, likely most, but it's by no means necessarily the case--no more so than disapproving of someone's addictive psychology and behavior makes them or you an enemy. In fact it's not likely at all as problematic as it generally is with addiction, because theists'
case of theism isn't usually anywhere near as harmful or destructive. Maybe some minor vice is more appropriate for most cases, though I'd also consider it a kind of risky vice in most cases too--mostly for those more prone toward conformity though.
I'm happily married to an Episcopalian and I enjoy the social/civic aspects of the community and the ritual aspects of the services (may even join one of these days, but I have no plans to do so). I have no beef with anyone for just being a theist, it's only when that theism is used as described above rather than as a personal/group comfort belief enabler that any real issues arise. Most believers are good people though ... so no problem. None at all. I'm a big fan of my fellow humans for the most part. Theism rarely does much to change that.
I am a theist. And guess what? I agree with an awful lot of what the so-called anti-theists complain about.
Same for the separation of church and state issues and a lot of other things. In fact I had more or less the same problems with the same mentalities when I was a believer. If anything more so because of the closer association.
But there's a problem. They've said they're against me.
Yeah, it's unfortunate when that happens. Note that as an addendum to the immediately prior comment I should say that I still have the same issues with atheists who share those problem child mentalities with the problem child believers, and that's really the underlying problem. It's just that it's institutionalized into a lot of churches--The Ultimate Enabler. .
How can I stand with them now? How can I stand with someone who then turns around to slap me across the face?
Let me tell you, it's quite hard.
Yeah ... that sucks. But in many cases at least they're probably just hurt (probably by the problem child believers) and confused about The Real Issue. It's natural to be distracted by and intently focused on the nastiest and most threatening ugliness aimed at you though, and there's no shortage of that in the name of theism/religion aimed at atheists, so when one "comes out" as an atheist that's an inherent risk. It's the same for you and yours I expect ... does seem we should be natural allies.
