What is antitheism?

[Gambit]

Do you see any truth to that claim? I just can't imagine any way of doing that.

Yes. In fact, I can substantiate it.

Under the slogan, "the Storming of Heaven," the League of Militant Atheists pressed for "resolute action against religious peasants" leading to the mass arrest and exile of many believers, especially village priests. By 1940, "over 100 bishops, tens of thousands of Orthodox clergy, and thousands of monks and lay believers had been killed or had died in Soviet prisons and the Gulag."[50]

(source: Wikipedia: League of Militant Atheists)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Okay, so I'm jumping in. My take is a little different to those that have already spoken, or perhaps rather my background (being an atheist) combined with my answer is a little different.

Definition
I like Hitchens, for a bunch of reasons (entertainment value amongst them) and his definition makes some sense to me, so I run with the following;

I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually true.... There may be people who wish to live their lives under cradle-to-grave divine supervision, a permanent surveillance and monitoring. But I cannot imagine anything more horrible or grotesque.
.

Thing is, I'm pretty much right there with him. But I don't class myself as an antitheist, and wouldn't. I have a negative take on antitheism, and I'll try to explain why in point form. But first, I think it's worth explaining what I DON'T think antitheism is.

• I don't see antitheism as the violent or even loud denunciation of theism. I imagine some antitheists are quite reserved, or even private in their belief that theism is harmful.
• I don't see antitheism as a belief that theism is necessarily massively harmful. Some antitheists likely see it as merely less preferable than an absence of theism.
• I don't think antitheists are necessarily angry about anything.
• I don't think antitheists are necessarily looking to control theists.

So why not antitheism for me? Simply because I think painting a broad brush over belief falls into the same incorrect (if understandable) assumptions about belief that theists seem to be painting about antitheism. Take a large group of people (and we are talking seriously large, over a lot of cultural, gender and age demographics) and make statements about whether they are good or bad and you are neccessarily wrong (in my opinion).
Anti male, anti female or anti white, anti black, anti old, anti young...heck pro any of those things too, for that matter.

I generally like to test my beliefs by checking the inverse, and seeing how it fits. Anyone who thought theism was good would be delusional, or simply operating at helicopter view, to my mind. There are too many flavours of theism. For exactly the same reasons, I don't paint pictures about theism as a whole in a negative light. Is it right for me? Hell no (pun sorta intended), and I have a lot of issues with much of the more visible religions. But belief, as a concept, I could care less about. The effect of that belief is a different story.

As a final point, Quintessence raised a variant of a view I subscribe to.
She mentioned that antitheism is a good way to put offside potential allies (and I'm paraphrasing to a massive degree). I suspect that the very point of antitheism is to suggest that there IS no good theism, and I have some sympathy for this view. But I do see plenty of theism or belief (more generally) which doesn't effect me in the least. I have no interest in even suggesting the removal of this from the world would make any difference. Panentheism...couldn't give a rat's tossbag. Secularism is more important to me, and a panentheist could be an ally in this (or not). I find it counterproductive to waste a moment wishing away theism when I could more productively use it wishing FOR secularism.

Just my take. I don't have a massively strong opinion on this, to be honest, but I thought it worth offering up a slight variant of what's already come.

 

[Gambit]

I suspect that the very point of antitheism is to suggest that there IS no good theism, and I have some sympathy for this view..

Your sympathy has been noted.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Your sympathy has been noted.

Cool. Glad my post elicited a response. Any other thoughts about anything I offered?

 

[Gambit]

Cool. Glad my post elicited a response. Any other thoughts about anything I offered?

Well, I have a question. Are you sympathetic toward Christopher Hitchens' antitheism?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, I have a question. Are you sympathetic toward Christopher Hitchens' antitheism?

Yes. I need to stress, though, what I mean by sympathetic.

In simple terms, I don't agree with it. I find it unhelpful, and (as evidenced here) it takes the conversation in a direction which I don't think is useful.
Some of my 'sympathy' for it is the result of my own bias against theism. In many cases, there is a rational basis for this bias (in my mind). Religions seek special rights where I think all should be treated in an egalitarian fashion. Religious beliefs are afforded protections under law which they wouldn't if merely offered as preferences.

However, I see it as important to identify where I believe a religion is doing this, and focus on that instance, rather than belief generally. As mentioned in my original post, a believer can be either my ally or my opponent in other discussions which I think are more important and more meaningful (such as secularism).
Even identifying as an antitheist seems to both discount this to some degree (if small) or sidetrack important discussions for semantic.

 

[Gambit]

In simple terms, I don't agree with it. I find it unhelpful, and (as evidenced here) it takes the conversation in a direction which I don't think is useful.
Some of my 'sympathy' for it is the result of my own bias against theism. In many cases, there is a rational basis for this bias (in my mind). Religions seek special rights where I think all should be treated in an egalitarian fashion. Religious beliefs are afforded protections under law which they wouldn't if merely offered as preferences.

Do you see "antitheism" and "antireligion" to be synonymous?

 

[psychoslice]

namaskaram



Badness is a human trait not exclusive to religion , ....in all honesty the majority of human ''Badness'' stems from human greed , ....the biggest failings in mankind are greed averice something most religions speak out against ....and what of corruption and power hngriness , are these also not traits that are present everywhere ? ....isnt politics equaly to blaimworthy in this respect ?

and amongst those who claim to be religious , these who act Badly are the ones who do not have a clear understanding of their religion .

in just the same way that not all Muslims are bad the majority are paecfull loving and good people it is just fundamentalism that we have to fear .

Yes that can be true, but it doesn't mean that the religious have anything over the none religious, that's for sure.

 

[Breathe]

Idiot regime of hypocrites who blindly are exactly what they condemn?

Pretty much.

"It's not hypocritical or bigoted when we do it, but of course, it's bigoted and hypocritical if you disagree with us doing it." This seems to be an acceptable view.

People allowed to call religion and theism even as far as dangerous, many of whom are nought but rude and aggressive towards theists and this is commendable, and disliking people treating religion and theism like they are dangerous as being unconstructive and shutting down dialogue and offering nothing in the way of peaceful coexistence and actually making it more difficult means I'm a paranoid, hypocritical bigot, even though I just want to live in peace with believers of all faiths and none?

It's so pathetic I actually find it slightly funny but in a sad kind of way.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you see "antitheism" and "antireligion" to be synonymous?

No. I understand why you ask, and my use of language can be a little lax, but I did mention that I think it's important to separate where religions are asking for special considerations from belief generally.
There are religions where belief is not even required. Equally there are believers who follow no commonly recognizable religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Luis , ...my husband has just read to me a news item , ...scientists have geneticaly modified the male mosqueto of the species that carries Dengue feever so that all the future offspiring will not live to maturity therefore will not be able to breed , therefore hoping to wipe out the Species therefore wiping out the disease , .....

I wonder if Anti theists would do this to us if they could ???

Hitler tried to engineer his idea of a prefect race , he tried to geneticaly modify humans , ....
I realy am not very keen on people that try to control or standardise humanity or nature to fit their conception of normality or desirability , .... to me this is a very unhealthy , ....

Do you want to do this to the people you disagree with? If not, why would assume that the people who disagree with you want to do this to you?

I would have no problem with you being an Atheist I promice I wouldnt even attempt to convert you because I dont beleive in coersion , ...

But Anti theist , ...I am sorry it rings alarm bells .

Let's see:

- you have a problem with the existence of antitheists.
- you think that when someone has a problem with the existence of someone else, it can lead to things like eugenics and genocide.

Should what *you* are saying ring alarm bells for *me*?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram almost penguin

Do you want to do this to the people you disagree with? If not, why would assume that the people who disagree with you want to do this to you?

no , and I think I have already said that , ......

to me it is customary to greet everyone regardless of faith or caste with ..Namaskars , is our way of paying respects to the divine atribute within all beings , so no I wouldnt want to alter a person , we all have our position on the ladder of spiritual evolution , ....you may not beleive this , but I do so I still regard even an antitheist in the same way , I may regard his veiw as ignorant , but I leave it to him to explore the meaning of life and the universe . ....that is of course if he is interested .

why would assume that the people who disagree with you want to do this to you?

many times in conversation with people who claim to be Anti-theist , I have been told repeatedly that they think the world would be a better place without us and that we should be dissuaded from our beleifs , I have been verbaly attacked and trolled by Anti-theists , .....I sort of get the impression that they seem to know what is best for me and that if I had any sence I would be like them ???

Let's see:

- you have a problem with the existence of antitheists.

I do not have a problem with the existance of any 'ist' or 'ism' , .....I accept that all kinds of beings exist and that due to their experience or lack of they will all hold differing beleifs , .....
however I am not obliged to agree and have equal right to voice an opinion based upon my experience .

- you think that when someone has a problem with the existence of someone else, it can lead to things like eugenics and genocide.

yes , a person who has a problem with another very often is the sort of person that seeks to control , this is a sign of ignorance , inexperience and imaturity

Should what *you* are saying ring alarm bells for *me*?[/QUOTE]

not if you listen to what *I* am actualy saying , ...no !

may I ask you a question , ...you identify as no religion / atheist , ........

what is the difference to you between an atheist and an anti-theist ?

so what makes you choose to identify as atheist rather than anti-theist ?

 

[J Ciresoli]

What is anitheism?

Wikipedia defines "antitheism" as the "active opposition to theism." If you consider yourself to be an antitheist, why are you actively opposed to theism?

Long story short, I am an anti-theist mainly due to irrelevance of religion as a moral guide in the age of reason. Religion served as a guide for the fundamentals of morality inherent in all people and as a basis for law in ancient cultures who needed the moral guidance during difficult times. Nowadays, logic and reason provide adequate basis for fundamental morality without religion, given that if one thinks about the reaction one's action will cause, and sees how his/her actions affect others, one will be capable of deciding the best course of action for self and others.

 

[Gambit]

Long story short, I am an anti-theist mainly due to irrelevance of religion as a moral guide in the age of reason. Religion served as a guide for the fundamentals of morality inherent in all people and as a basis for law in ancient cultures who needed the moral guidance during difficult times. Nowadays, logic and reason provide adequate basis for fundamental morality without religion, given that if one thinks about the reaction one's action will cause, and sees how his/her actions affect others, one will be capable of deciding the best course of action for self and others.

Are you a Muslim?

 

[J Ciresoli]

Are you a Muslim?

Why in the world do you think that?

 

[J Ciresoli]

Are you a Muslim?

Agnostic atheist here...

 

[Quintessence]

Agnostic atheist here...

Call me suspicious, but why is your listed religion by your avatar "Islam" if you're an agnostic atheist? If that's in error, you might want to do something about that, or others are going to get confused too.

 

[Gambit]

Agnostic atheist here...

Why did you identify your religion as "Islam?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

namaskaram almost penguin



no , and I think I have already said that , ......

to me it is customary to greet everyone regardless of faith or caste with ..Namaskars , is our way of paying respects to the divine atribute within all beings , so no I wouldnt want to alter a person , we all have our position on the ladder of spiritual evolution , ....you may not beleive this , but I do so I still regard even an antitheist in the same way , I may regard his veiw as ignorant , but I leave it to him to explore the meaning of life and the universe . ....that is of course if he is interested .

Then I think you understand the antitheist position better than you might realize.

I touched on this a bit before: I'm antitheistic in the same sense that I'm anti-smoking: I think that both behaviours are negative, and I don't like being put in a position when either might harm me. I do think the world would be a better place if people voluntarily stopped smoking and god-belief, but I'm not going to rip the cigarette out of anyone's mouth or the crucifix off anyone's neck. In fact, I support your right to smoke or believe in God if that's what you choose to do. I just ask that you smoke or believe in a way that doesn't negatively impact others, and that you don't force me to support your habit... while hoping that someday you'll change your mind.

many times in conversation with people who claim to be Anti-theist , I have been told repeatedly that they think the world would be a better place without us and that we should be dissuaded from our beleifs , I have been verbaly attacked and trolled by Anti-theists ,

I've been verbally attacked and trolled by theists, but I don't assume that this behaviour represents all theists. Do you assume that this behaviour represents all antitheists?

.....I sort of get the impression that they seem to know what is best for me and that if I had any sence I would be like them ???

I do think that atheism is more rational than theism, but I know plenty of very smart theists and a few rather stupid atheists.

not if you listen to what *I* am actualy saying , ...no !

So you appreciate that just because two people disagree, this doesn't mean that either of them wants to brainwash or exterminate the other? Good.

may I ask you a question , ...you identify as no religion / atheist , ........

what is the difference to you between an atheist and an anti-theist ?

so what makes you choose to identify as atheist rather than anti-theist ?

I identify as both an atheist and an antitheist.

As I touched on earlier, an atheist is someone who does not believe in any gods, and an antitheist is, at minimum, someone who believes that gods do not exist.

Since antitheism is "opposition to theism", it can mean either a disagreement with the conclusion that god(s) exist or a belief that god-belief is a negative thing.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Then I think you understand the antitheist position better than you might realize.

I understand it but , ....I do not agre with it .

I've been verbally attacked and trolled by theists, but I don't assume that this behaviour represents all theists. Do you assume that this behaviour represents all antitheists?
I do think that atheism is more rational than theism, but I know plenty of very smart theists and a few rather stupid atheists.

unfortunatly I have yet to meet a placid and rational Anti theist , there is an air of dogmatic forcefull ness particularly those that imply that in their opinion my faith must be baseless and blind , simply because they are aware of no basis for faith ...?

without doubt there is there is ignorance on both sides , this is only rational , but to be Anti-theist on the strength that some theists are ignorant is not logical at all because by that very assumption that some are ignorant there must also be some who are not , therefore one canot be anti theist if not all theists are alike ???

Since antitheism is "opposition to theism", it can mean either a disagreement with the conclusion that god(s) exist or a belief that god-belief is a negative thing.

would that minimum not then be Anti-theism , rather than Anti-theist ?