What is Christianity support?

[URAVIP2ME]

We are told all creation is precious and animals as well. I think He's just speaking factually about the exalted station of man.
What if there is a soul and lower forms of life do not possess one?
What if we were always inherently human even if we looked like a fish? Clearly we developed along a different line to the lower species. Aren't we are a far more advanced species than anything else in existence.
..........

According to Scripture animals are souls - Numbers 31:28
So, just as Adam became a living soul or person when Adam received the breath of life from God - Genesis 2:7 - when animals breathe they are also living souls as Adam became a living soul. No where in Scripture does it say that Adam came to have a soul, or that Adam possessed a soul, but rather that Adam was a soul. By breaking God's Law Adam became a 'poor soul' before Adam became a dead soul - Ezekiel 18:4,20

According to Scripture, each reproduces according to their ' kind '.
Cats are cats, dogs are dogs, fish are fish, people are people.
Our earthly father (Adam) was neither a fish or a monkey.
So, to me, mankind does Not have a fish father, or a monkey father, even if sometimes we see humans acts like animals.

 

[loverofhumanity]

According to Scripture animals are souls - Numbers 31:28
So, just as Adam became a living soul or person when Adam received the breath of life from God - Genesis 2:7 - when animals breathe they are also living souls as Adam became a living soul. No where in Scripture does it say that Adam came to have a soul, or that Adam possessed a soul, but rather that Adam was a soul. By breaking God's Law Adam became a 'poor soul' before Adam became a dead soul - Ezekiel 18:4,20

According to Scripture, each reproduces according to their ' kind '.
Cats are cats, dogs are dogs, fish are fish, people are people.
Our earthly father (Adam) was neither a fish or a monkey.
So, to me, mankind does Not have a fish father, or a monkey father, even if sometimes we see humans acts like animals.

We were the only beings created in God's image.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Windwalker]

This is the best way how I could describe inner vision and inner hearing which is such a deeper level that only these Words adequately portray what is perceived.

I have a general rule... I like people to put things in their own words as best as possible. While I do appreciate quoting others to express what you want to say, the problem with that is what I may hear from the quote and what you may hear are different things. I may end up not knowing your thoughts as I project my own on to you, assuming you're saying the same things, that my thoughts about the quote are the same as yours. In other words, it's fine to quote something, but you have to share your thoughts about it too.

What I'm looking for is how do you describe how this inner vision works? Is it a matter of inspired thoughts? Is it spontaneous shifts in conscious awareness? And specifically, how do you access it? How do you open that eye? Etc.

There is a higher reality in man that cannot be described with words.

With this I agree. The closest we can come is poetry. I think the best way to say this is probably that it cannot be "defined" with words. But we certainly can uses words to attempt to speak about the experience of that, to describe our experience.

How would you attempt to describe it? For myself, I could find plenty of words to point to it, while knowing that none of the words are truly capable of describing it.

It is what we can't explain I feel, that makes us unique as a species.

I struggle with what he is trying to say here. Is he saying the experience of the ineffable is what makes us unique as a species?

“Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?

That is actually quite profound, if he is meaning the way I understand this! "Within thee the universe is folded". I like that.

Here's a way I put words to that. We are 14.5 billion years of evolution walking in flesh, wondering at ourselves as the Creation of God. If you think about that, everything unfolded in the universe through evolution over the course of its existence is enfolded into us! Truly, "The kingdom of God is within you," said Jesus.

 

[Windwalker]

We were the only beings created in God's image.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I'm curious what you understand 'in his own image" to mean? As far as the word "soul" goes, that's so loosely used that it creates more confusion than value. How do you define what this word "soul" means?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm curious what you understand 'in his own image" to mean? As far as the word "soul" goes, that's so loosely used that it creates more confusion than value. How do you define what this word "soul" means?

By God's image I understand we are able to reflect His attributes.

His attributes are mentioned in all the Holy Books.

As to the inner ear and eyes they are senses of the soul given to us to know God. When they become developed we can see and hear God clearly.

But we cannot see or hear God directly just like we cannot look directly at the sun without an intermediary. We can only know God through His Intermediaries like Buddha, Christ, Krishna and Baha'u'llah for they bring the life giving rays of His truth to us through their Words and Teachings which we can absorb and grow and develop spiritually according to our capacity.

Our inner hearing and inner sight can only be unlocked by the Word of God which is the King of all words and the Key which unlocks man's inner hearing and sight and the hearts and minds of men and their inner reality.

But there are conditions. Baha'u'llah has set forth the conditions for opening the inner ears and eyes in His Book of Certitude. He said the seeker would be endowed with a new ear, a new eyes , a new heart and a new mind.

What does He say happens when these senses become unlocked?

Baha'u'llah says we can then see with the 'Eye of God' and we attain stations of 'absolute certitude'. We gain true knowledge and certitude.

If man were aware of these other states and stations and had attained the least of them, he would know of a certainty in himself and by himself that man's reality is so distant from any other form of life that the difference is immeasurable.

These realities and conditions do not come from the physical world.These come from the world's of God. While the animal only interacts with this world, man interacts with the world of God as well as this world.

Once we 'know' we are then in a state of peace and contentment. True knowledge endows inner peace and true happiness. It knows not confusion or inner conflict. It can discern truth from falsehood as clearly as the sun from the shadow.

True knowledge is not academic knowledge.

One proof we are not of the animal kingdom is the dream. Without eyes we see, without tongue we speak and travel to a distant city without moving. There are mysteries of the universe locked within us that are yet to be unfolded. These are signs placed within us to remind us we are spiritual beings.

 

[Windwalker]

By God's image I understand we are able to reflect His attributes.

Personally, I think all creation reflects God's attributes. Rather, probably a better way to say it rather than reflects is expresses. All creation expresses God's attributes, mineral, vegetable, and animal (which includes humans).

His attributes are mentioned in all the Holy Books.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."

~Romans 1:20

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.

~Psalm 19:1-4

Sounds to me like all of creation is the image of God.

As to the inner ear and eyes they are senses of the soul given to us to know God. When they become developed we can see and hear God clearly.

And this is key. "When they become developed". The other word for development is evolution. Not all humans have that developed in themselves. If having this developed is the measure of humans over animals, then are those humans who don't have this developed not actually human and still like the animal?

But we cannot see or hear God directly just like we cannot look directly at the sun without an intermediary.

In a particular sense this is true, but not in another. This is something I could go deep on, but since I don't have the time I'll keep it brief. Everything we experience in order for our minds to hold it has to be filtered through what lenses we have available to us. As the analogy before, some lens are more polished and refined, other more dim. As the Apostle Paul says well, and this is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We most certain can experience God directly, but how we understand what that is, after the fact, has to be translated by our minds into some symbolic representation. Now here's is where I could spend several pages talking about this, but won't right now. But it is possible to see "face to face". Most definitely so. Direct experience is available to anyone. The only thing preventing that is our own willingness to be opened to that.

We can only know God through His Intermediaries like Buddha, Christ, Krishna and Baha'u'llah for they bring the life giving rays of His truth to us through their Words and Teachings which we can absorb and grow and develop spiritually according to our capacity.

Oh, most definitely not! This is one area I'm am very certain of. Do these people have great insights and value to others on their own paths? Sure, of course, yes. But it is not necessary to be taught by them to access God. The grass of the field is scripture, and one can hear the Words of God in every rustling wave of wind blowing over them. One can connect to God through the smile of a child. One can know God in themselves in Silence. Does a Jesus or a Buddha help guide others? Sure. But to say we are dependent on them, to me is a grave error.

I just thought of this wonderful video as I was typing this. You might enjoy it:

Our inner hearing and inner sight can only be unlocked by the Word of God which is the King of all words and the Key which unlocks man's inner hearing and sight and the hearts and minds of men and their inner reality.

Well, what do you mean by the Word of God? If you mean scripture as spoken by prophets, I'd have to disagree very much with that. If you mean the Light of God which shines through everything in every moment, fully available to us at all times, then I'd say yes. It's really just a matter of the scales falling off our eyes and seeing God who is never anywhere but here.

But there are conditions. Baha'u'llah has set forth the conditions for opening the inner ears and eyes in His Book of Certitude. He said the seeker would be endowed with a new ear, a new eyes , a new heart and a new mind.

Which are what? What conditions?

What does He say happens when these senses become unlocked?

Baha'u'llah says we can then see with the 'Eye of God' and we attain stations of 'absolute certitude'. We gain true knowledge and certitude.

Yes, and no as well. If you mean certitude in our thoughts and beliefs and ideas, I think that would be again a grave error. If you mean certitude in the knowledge and being of God, then yes.

If man were aware of these other states and stations and had attained the least of them, he would know of a certainty in himself and by himself that man's reality is so distant from any other form of life that the difference is immeasurable.

Most definitely not. Quite the opposite actually. I know this because I have experienced these states. What you realize is in fact that what is in you, is in all things, living or simply material. It is quite literally, "rivers of living water", that flows from all things, to all things, and through all things. It lives in you and all that is, and you are deeply, and eternally part of that Stream, that Spirit which moves though you out into to the world, and through the world into you. This, is the Word of God. This is Logos.

Our reality as humans, when the veil of our own blindness is pulled back, reveals that our reality is inextricably tied to all life, and we are that Life itself.

These realities and conditions do not come from the physical world.These come from the world's of God. While the animal only interacts with this world, man interacts with the world of God as well as this world.

The world of God is not separate from this world. It is not our reason which allows us to penetrate God. It is our very being. It is when we set aside trying to contain God in our minds, that we find God in our very breath. Everything that breathes, breathes God. The difference with man, is we create mental models about God. Animals don't do that. Maybe that's not a good thing for us to do, actually.

To quote the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart here, "I pray God make me free of God that I may know God in his unconditional being".

Once we 'know' we are then in a state of peace and contentment. True knowledge endows inner peace and true happiness. It knows not confusion or inner conflict.

I agree with this from my own experience.

It can discern truth from falsehood as clearly as the sun from the shadow.

I'd be careful with saying this. What "truth" and what "falsehood". If you mean facts versus errors, I cannot agree with that. It is not about magical knowledge, where you can pick the winning lottery numbers! To me this is true, but only within a certain understanding. It's true more along the lines of saying you will know Love when you see it.

True knowledge is not academic knowledge.

Absolutely correct. It's also not a matter of determining facts. Truth with a capital T has nothing to do with propositional truths.

One proof we are not of the animal kingdom is the dream. Without eyes we see, without tongue we speak and travel to a distant city without moving.

I really think you are making a big mistake trying to say we are not animals. Every argument you make to make us not animals actually applies to other animals besides us. Animals do dream. Ever seen a dog running in his sleep, kicking his legs and then actually getting up to chase the animal he was dreaming about, only to hit the wall he didn't see because he wasn't awake?

There are mysteries of the universe locked within us that are yet to be unfolded. These are signs placed within us to remind us we are spiritual beings.

Signs? That's interesting. I guess I don't need signs. Can you explain what these are to you?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Personally, I think all creation reflects God's attributes. Rather, probably a better way to say it rather than reflects is expresses. All creation expresses God's attributes, mineral, vegetable, and animal (which includes humans).


"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."

~Romans 1:20

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.

~Psalm 19:1-4

Sounds to me like all of creation is the image of God.


And this is key. "When they become developed". The other word for development is evolution. Not all humans have that developed in themselves. If having this developed is the measure of humans over animals, then are those humans who don't have this developed not actually human and still like the animal?


In a particular sense this is true, but not in another. This is something I could go deep on, but since I don't have the time I'll keep it brief. Everything we experience in order for our minds to hold it has to be filtered through what lenses we have available to us. As the analogy before, some lens are more polished and refined, other more dim. As the Apostle Paul says well, and this is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We most certain can experience God directly, but how we understand what that is, after the fact, has to be translated by our minds into some symbolic representation. Now here's is where I could spend several pages talking about this, but won't right now. But it is possible to see "face to face". Most definitely so. Direct experience is available to anyone. The only thing preventing that is our own willingness to be opened to that.


Oh, most definitely not! This is one area I'm am very certain of. Do these people have great insights and value to others on their own paths? Sure, of course, yes. But it is not necessary to be taught by them to access God. The grass of the field is scripture, and one can hear the Words of God in every rustling wave of wind blowing over them. One can connect to God through the smile of a child. One can know God in themselves in Silence. Does a Jesus or a Buddha help guide others? Sure. But to say we are dependent on them, to me is a grave error.

I just thought of this wonderful video as I was typing this. You might enjoy it:

Well, what do you mean by the Word of God? If you mean scripture as spoken by prophets, I'd have to disagree very much with that. If you mean the Light of God which shines through everything in every moment, fully available to us at all times, then I'd say yes. It's really just a matter of the scales falling off our eyes and seeing God who is never anywhere but here.


Which are what? What conditions?


Yes, and no as well. If you mean certitude in our thoughts and beliefs and ideas, I think that would be again a grave error. If you mean certitude in the knowledge and being of God, then yes.


Most definitely not. Quite the opposite actually. I know this because I have experienced these states. What you realize is in fact that what is in you, is in all things, living or simply material. It is quite literally, "rivers of living water", that flows from all things, to all things, and through all things. It lives in you and all that is, and you are deeply, and eternally part of that Stream, that Spirit which moves though you out into to the world, and through the world into you. This, is the Word of God. This is Logos.

Our reality as humans, when the veil of our own blindness is pulled back, reveals that our reality is inextricably tied to all life, and we are that Life itself.


The world of God is not separate from this world. It is not our reason which allows us to penetrate God. It is our very being. It is when we set aside trying to contain God in our minds, that we find God in our very breath. Everything that breathes, breathes God. The difference with man, is we create mental models about God. Animals don't do that. Maybe that's not a good thing for us to do, actually.

To quote the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart here, "I pray God make me free of God that I may know God in his unconditional being".


I agree with this from my own experience.


I'd be careful with saying this. What "truth" and what "falsehood". If you mean facts versus errors, I cannot agree with that. It is not about magical knowledge, where you can pick the winning lottery numbers! To me this is true, but only within a certain understanding. It's true more along the lines of saying you will know Love when you see it.


Absolutely correct. It's also not a matter of determining facts. Truth with a capital T has nothing to do with propositional truths.


I really think you are making a big mistake trying to say we are not animals. Every argument you make to make us not animals actually applies to other animals besides us. Animals do dream. Ever seen a dog running in his sleep, kicking his legs and then actually getting up to chase the animal he was dreaming about, only to hit the wall he didn't see because he wasn't awake?

Signs? That's interesting. I guess I don't need signs. Can you explain what these are to you?

First this is the essence of the matter.

"If a scientific theory does not correspond with the divine verses, it is certain that it is the essence of error." (Abdul-Baha)

The Bible says man is unique in that only He is created in God's image not other species and the Baha'is Writings also state that as well as the Quran. Scientists have been wrong before and on this they will find out they are wrong also.

Because absolute truth, all truth comes from God not man. Science discovers truth while God reveals it through His Prophets. If a scientists knowledge contradicts God's revealed Word on the matter the scientists theory is dead wrong and will eventually be proven wrong. Some theories like the earth being fixed took a thousand years to disprove and it was the Quran that proved the sun was fixed, the revealed Word of God. The current concept of man being a part of the animal kingdom will be definitely proven wrong in time.

Yes reflects God's attributes is a better description. However involuntarily reflects His attributes unlike man who may choose to do so or not. We can become lower than the animals if we so choose or higher. Animals are bound to nature's laws and cannot deviate from them whereas man can.

Everything reflects the glory of God but only man is stated to have been created in His image albeit over time. Man has evolved within his own species but never transmuted. That will be proven incorrect in the future just like the concept that ether was thought to be a physical substance and the sun revolved around the earth. The Quran in two verses proved the Ptolemaic concept false which was believed in for a thousand years. Abdul-Baha, in the time of Einstein stated that the ether was not sensible but intellectual and now every branch of scientific knowledge is confirming that. Now that the concept of ether has changed to what was stated by Him science has multiplied as ether the word has been replaced but it is still referred to in other terminology.

Human beings have not changed over long periods. And as we agree they did so did the lower species. But man was always the most advanced species at whatever stage of evolution we may have been.

As can be seen from the ancient, dried, and embalmed bodies which have been exhumed from the pyramids of Egypt 5,000 years after their death, there is not the slightest change or variation, to the extent of a hair, from the human beings of today. Similarly, the [ancient] pictures of animals on the frescoes of Egypt are identical to present-day animals....Man is man with his beautiful, radiant countenance. "There is no change in the creation of God (Qur'án 30:30).

As to dreams.

The animal, as it does not have a soul only replays its daily hunts etc A human can dream of something and it may come true and then there are the visions of the Prophets who prophesy of things that come true thousands of years after they have died.

A dog has no soul no matter how advanced. It cannot bring the invisible to the visible and discover realities that are hidden to support the quote below.

Even the most developed dog has not the immortal soul of the man; yet the dog is perfect in its own place. You do not quarrel with a rose-tree because it cannot sing! – Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 97.

Animals also cannot choose to or choose not to believe in a God. They are bound to the laws of their kingdom and cannot deviate a hair breadth for the natural laws governing them but man, through the power of his soul can transcend the laws of nature and go against them. Only man has this all encompassing power which enables him to be the master and not the slave of his environment.

I'll speak about the Word of God in the next post but thanks for your patience.


Science makes mistakes and is not infallible like God

Like the ether and the Ptolemic theories the future will also disprove that man is from the animal and will find he is an independent species. By philosophers He probably means the popular throes res of the time.

Some of the philosophers of Europe think that evolution takes place from the genus to the species. But the Prophets teach that this theory is in error....

 

[loverofhumanity]

Personally, I think all creation reflects God's attributes. Rather, probably a better way to say it rather than reflects is expresses. All creation expresses God's attributes, mineral, vegetable, and animal (which includes humans).


"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."

~Romans 1:20

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.

~Psalm 19:1-4

Sounds to me like all of creation is the image of God.


And this is key. "When they become developed". The other word for development is evolution. Not all humans have that developed in themselves. If having this developed is the measure of humans over animals, then are those humans who don't have this developed not actually human and still like the animal?


In a particular sense this is true, but not in another. This is something I could go deep on, but since I don't have the time I'll keep it brief. Everything we experience in order for our minds to hold it has to be filtered through what lenses we have available to us. As the analogy before, some lens are more polished and refined, other more dim. As the Apostle Paul says well, and this is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We most certain can experience God directly, but how we understand what that is, after the fact, has to be translated by our minds into some symbolic representation. Now here's is where I could spend several pages talking about this, but won't right now. But it is possible to see "face to face". Most definitely so. Direct experience is available to anyone. The only thing preventing that is our own willingness to be opened to that.


Oh, most definitely not! This is one area I'm am very certain of. Do these people have great insights and value to others on their own paths? Sure, of course, yes. But it is not necessary to be taught by them to access God. The grass of the field is scripture, and one can hear the Words of God in every rustling wave of wind blowing over them. One can connect to God through the smile of a child. One can know God in themselves in Silence. Does a Jesus or a Buddha help guide others? Sure. But to say we are dependent on them, to me is a grave error.

I just thought of this wonderful video as I was typing this. You might enjoy it:

Well, what do you mean by the Word of God? If you mean scripture as spoken by prophets, I'd have to disagree very much with that. If you mean the Light of God which shines through everything in every moment, fully available to us at all times, then I'd say yes. It's really just a matter of the scales falling off our eyes and seeing God who is never anywhere but here.


Which are what? What conditions?


Yes, and no as well. If you mean certitude in our thoughts and beliefs and ideas, I think that would be again a grave error. If you mean certitude in the knowledge and being of God, then yes.


Most definitely not. Quite the opposite actually. I know this because I have experienced these states. What you realize is in fact that what is in you, is in all things, living or simply material. It is quite literally, "rivers of living water", that flows from all things, to all things, and through all things. It lives in you and all that is, and you are deeply, and eternally part of that Stream, that Spirit which moves though you out into to the world, and through the world into you. This, is the Word of God. This is Logos.

Our reality as humans, when the veil of our own blindness is pulled back, reveals that our reality is inextricably tied to all life, and we are that Life itself.


The world of God is not separate from this world. It is not our reason which allows us to penetrate God. It is our very being. It is when we set aside trying to contain God in our minds, that we find God in our very breath. Everything that breathes, breathes God. The difference with man, is we create mental models about God. Animals don't do that. Maybe that's not a good thing for us to do, actually.

To quote the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart here, "I pray God make me free of God that I may know God in his unconditional being".


I agree with this from my own experience.


I'd be careful with saying this. What "truth" and what "falsehood". If you mean facts versus errors, I cannot agree with that. It is not about magical knowledge, where you can pick the winning lottery numbers! To me this is true, but only within a certain understanding. It's true more along the lines of saying you will know Love when you see it.


Absolutely correct. It's also not a matter of determining facts. Truth with a capital T has nothing to do with propositional truths.


I really think you are making a big mistake trying to say we are not animals. Every argument you make to make us not animals actually applies to other animals besides us. Animals do dream. Ever seen a dog running in his sleep, kicking his legs and then actually getting up to chase the animal he was dreaming about, only to hit the wall he didn't see because he wasn't awake?

Signs? That's interesting. I guess I don't need signs. Can you explain what these are to you?

Regarding the Word of God. We wouldn't have the Internet or any technologies or sciences if Prophets did not appear and reveal the Word of God.

The Creative Word of God is not your or my words but Words which create sciences and Arts and inspire civilisations.

When Baha'u'llah said "the world is but one country and mankind its citizens" that one Word released the forces that brought about the sciences and technologies to turn our world into a global village in obedience to that Command of God.

God says 'Be' and 'It is' means a process is set in motion where the entire forces of the universe serve that command into bringing from the invisible what the Words have commanded, to the visible world.

If you look at the advance in science since Baha'u'llah proclaimed the readiness for the established of the unity of the human race, you will see that all the forces of the universe were galvanised to bringing about the circumstances where His Words could become a reality.

We have now the physical means to unite the world politically, economically, socially and spiritually and how is that this only came about once Baha'u'llah had commanded it?

The first telegraph was sent on the birth of the Baha'i Faith saying 'What hath God wrought'?

Imagine if the forces of science did not eventuate and all these teachings about the oneness of humanity and world unity? What would we do with them but throw them on the trash heap and Baha'u'llah would have been disgraced and discredited yet why didn't that happen?

So on the Word of God, the very technologies we use today and love so much were brought about by the Pen of Baha'u'llah. This generation does not understand this yet but in time it will.

 

[Windwalker]

"What is Christianity support?"
What is God support? What is Quran support? What is messenger support? What is manifestation support? No support. Just claims.

If one can only cite a religious text to support what is a scientific claim, that's not a valid support. There has to be some sort of external corroboration to validate the claim. Citing a religious text cannot qualify as the trump card over other claims which actually do have corroboration. "I have God's word saying otherwise," does not trump mountains of evidence from many different sources validating a contradicting claim. It cannot be used as a trump card, nor should be for a long list of valid reasons.

 

[Godobeyer]

"What is Christianity support?"
What is God support? What is Quran support? What is messenger support? What is manifestation support? No support. Just claims.

This is Christian DIR support by rules

 

[Windwalker]

Before I offer my longer response I want to add this to what I just posted a moment ago to @Aupmanyav regarding someone using religious texts as a trump card over all other claims regardless of the mountains of support they offer. I started a thread over a year and a half ago called The Impossibility of Scriptural Authority. This is what I said in the OP, and expands upon some points about the "filters" we use to interpret reality with, which in itself negates using scripture as a trump card against the entire scientific community.

People will cite their religion's scriptures in discussions or disputes over differences in beliefs to settle the debate in their favor. You will hear claims, "The Bible says...", "God says....", "The Holy Koran says....", etc., but in all of these cases such beliefs in external authorities such as this completely ignores the person interpreting the words. It ignore themselves. It presumes that what they are understanding by reading something outside themselves qualifies as objective truth. It completely ignores the processes involved in how we perceive and interpret truth and reality, and in effect absolves themselves of any responsibility in absolutist thought. It denies that they say what they say God says.

It is impossible to say "God's word says....", because what they are reading is completely filtered through their own mind's interpretive frameworks; language, culture, personality, developmental stages, cognitive abilities, fears, anxieties, hopes, expectations, needs, desires, and a long list of such filters through which the whole of reality is mediated, including their religion's sacred scriptures. "God's word says...", is in reality, what their culture and personality is capable of seeing, and nothing more. Therefore, as one grows and develops, and their consciousness is expanded through various types of awareness that changes over time, what "God's word says...", will become different. It is therefore impossible to cite something you read as an authority, because it has the individual's mind and culture completely embedded within that interpretation.

I have yet to hear any literalist deal with this reality. How can they cite scripture as authoritative, when they are the interpreters? I will even add, that to cite scholars, also has that problem. Even at best, the scholar is still embedded within his own set of presumptions. Is objective truth ever truly objective?
​

Thoughts?

 

[Godobeyer]

I am trying to support Christians against false claims.

So why you feel that they need your support ?
What claims, can you elaborate ?

 

[Godobeyer]

See post 109. Have you read the post or just balked at seeing my avatara?

I don't know why I smell atheism believe on it.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't know why I smell atheism believe on it.

Do you hear atheism in my posts which agree with him?

 

[Godobeyer]

I am trying to support Christians against false claims and abuse, though I know tht they themselves are capable of doing this. Just adding my support.

Support by insert your atheism beliefs and rejecting their believe is rude .
You just try to embrassing your self here,by try to fooling people here.

 

[Godobeyer]

Do you hear atheism in my posts which agree with him?

No I don't read all posts include yours. because your religion tag is not showing that you are Christian.

Back to OP.
Do you believe that God NOT the Creator, and He is NOT origin of creation ?

if Yes .
how you explain that Bible said God created many things ?

btw this thread is made me discover much things about how some Christians deal with Creation and evolution.

 

[Godobeyer]

Bill Gates has given 10 billion dollars in charity. I don't have that kind of money. I can give 5 dollars, so I am giving that.
See post 109. Have you read the post or just balked at seeing my avatara?

You edited your replies too much
give me 5 dollars, I will support your view

That is correct. You have at least not lost your sense of smell even if you might have lost others. I am an atheist. But I do not like one set of theists finding fault with other set of theists when both are on shaky grounds.

We have a saying in India 'Chhalni kya kahe soop se jisme bahattar chhed' (A strainer should not accuse a sieve, because it itself has 72 holes).

Now, I find it funny that atheist propose his "atheism" support to Christians !

 

[Godobeyer]

I just had five dollars which I have already given to charity. Let me earn some more, I will give it to you.
Religions will do a favor to humanity if they stop finding faults with each other. That is a bad habit.

It's was joke , I don't need money, I don't give money to people to change their opinion.

Actually there is no faults,there is different beliefs.

In individual level we are just discussing.

I notice before even atheists disagree on each other, about how life apprears.
there is no two people in world AGREE on all subjects in world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If one can only cite a religious text to support what is a scientific claim, that's not a valid support. There has to be some sort of external corroboration to validate the claim. Citing a religious text cannot qualify as the trump card over other claims which actually do have corroboration. "I have God's word saying otherwise," does not trump mountains of evidence from many different sources validating a contradicting claim. It cannot be used as a trump card, nor should be for a long list of valid reasons.

That's very, very true but that's all we have on the subject. Our religion has nothing to do with evolution. These are questions that were asked at the time because evolution was a hot topic and those answers were given.

Rarely a Holy Book will mention a science, but when it does, if it is the Word of God, it will be proven correct eventually. The Ptolemic system was believed for a thousand years. The Quran said the sun was fixed not the earth. The Quran's view was right.

In the Baha'i Writings scientific judgements are very rarely, if ever given but a lot of people asked so they were told we are a distinct species. It will be up to science to prove that and I am sure they will but I don't know when.

 

[LuisDantas]

I notice before even atheists disagree on each other, about how life apprears.
there is no two people in world AGREE on all subjects in world.

Maybe you want to bring this to some non-DIR thread?