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What is Christianity support?

As a Christian, which do you support?


  • Total voters
    15

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Continued...


Give me one single shred of evidence from the scientific community that says we're not part of the tree of life and that we are not to be considered an animal life form. Without that, you have nothing. Most certainly no right to claim that your religion "harmonizes science and religion".


Once the prophets thought the earth had "corners", and that illnesses were caused by God punishing you or some "vexing spirit". Were they right?


First off, what I said was wrong was your mistaken view that we can bypass interpreting things that we read. The mechanics involved simply do not allow for that to happen. But there is a difference in talking about facts. To stand in front of a lake and say "There is no water in it", when there certainly is, is in fact being wrong. To say we are not part of the animal kingdom is in fact wrong. The evidence we are is in fact utterly non-reversible. If we aren't animals, then what classification are we? Fairies?


There is absolutely nothing hasty whatsoever about the Theory of Evolution! I hope you enjoy reading that Statement on Evolution article I shared. I hope you found it informative.


To me, the real question then becomes that when you accept science, how do you then "harmonize science and religion"? You in fact are not doing that in denying it and saying one day it will be proven wrong. I on the other hand accept it, with good reason, yet have faith at the same time. Who between the two of us is actually "harmonizing science and religion"? What you should be doing is asking me how. :)

This is a more in depth paper on the topic.

I'm not good at explaining things but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong about man being a distinct species. Science has got many things right except that their models that man is descended from an animal need more refining.

A thousand million years ago even if man was a tiny fish it was an original species - man. Although he shares many things in common with the lower species he was inherently man always.

http://bahai-library.com/kitzing_origin_complex_order&chapter=all
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
What role do you think God plays? Do you believe God specifically directs evolution to a specific form he had in mind ahead of time?

But regarding my understanding of evolution being different than the atheists, I'm not sure how it is? The process is the same. I'm not injecting magic into it. I'd be curious specifically what's different.
Don't be curious :)
I am already mentioned to it.
They believe:
Natural selection,and randomness, through long period of time, which deny the existence God for them
Thats the evolution in brief to them.as I understand.


For me, God is the only player.
God could created each one of us in less then second,as He did with Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuh).
I mean God created time,let time is used by us to live.
Our body plan construction was already existed in zygote.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
"The methodology only deals with the material world" is the problem here. It is not a holistic science in that it doesn't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings with a soul so of course it's going to get evolution all wrong because if you leave out the brain and only study the body for instance, you're going to get a distorted view of what the human body is.

What Abdul-Baha'i did was accept the parts of biological evolution but threw a spiritual light or context on evolution to put it in its proper perspective. The way science has treated evolution as just a material science is like a bird trying to fly with one wing only.

Without including the spiritual aspect of man the true concept of evolution is imperfect and imbalanced and most definitely incomplete no matter all the world believes in it.

It's more an atheistic view point of evolution currently than a holistic, balanced and mature one and one can clearly see the deliberate bias against all things spiritual by their exclusion and by being termed in a denigrating manner as 'magical'. It's pure prejudice and perhaps fear to be open minded enough to consider the Divine had a large part to play in our design. We are not just biological beings.

All the current theory of evolution is trying to do is disprove God by the way it debunks any form of soul or spirit in its assessment of man's origin.

I couldn't put my finger on it but now I can. It's impossible to scientifically prove the truth about evolution if one leaves out a basic ingredient of it, our spiritual ancestry.

I agree even more now that this will be debunked very easily in the future by true scientists who are not prejudiced against religion and not afraid to look at all the facts.

It's laughable when they say all it's about is the material aspect when we are primarily spiritual beings!!!

I can understand science being wary of superstitions but it's not science if it leaves out a basic feature of man's existence. The theories about evolution leaves out the very foundation and is definitely a bird with one wing.

Abdul-Baha did an excellent job of combining the two pointing out we are both material and spiritual beings with a soul whose foundation is spiritual. At least He tries to unite the two unlike writing everything spiritual about man's existence as 'magical'.

Just defining man by his body is and the material world is so wrong because there's much more to it than that. The model is incorrect and not holistic and cannot stand forever. It will fail and be replaced by a model that takes into account the human condition not only the material world.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Continued...


Give me one single shred of evidence from the scientific community that says we're not part of the tree of life and that we are not to be considered an animal life form. Without that, you have nothing. Most certainly no right to claim that your religion "harmonizes science and religion".


Once the prophets thought the earth had "corners", and that illnesses were caused by God punishing you or some "vexing spirit". Were they right?


First off, what I said was wrong was your mistaken view that we can bypass interpreting things that we read. The mechanics involved simply do not allow for that to happen. But there is a difference in talking about facts. To stand in front of a lake and say "There is no water in it", when there certainly is, is in fact being wrong. To say we are not part of the animal kingdom is in fact wrong. The evidence we are is in fact utterly non-reversible. If we aren't animals, then what classification are we? Fairies?


There is absolutely nothing hasty whatsoever about the Theory of Evolution! I hope you enjoy reading that Statement on Evolution article I shared. I hope you found it informative.


To me, the real question then becomes that when you accept science, how do you then "harmonize science and religion"? You in fact are not doing that in denying it and saying one day it will be proven wrong. I on the other hand accept it, with good reason, yet have faith at the same time. Who between the two of us is actually "harmonizing science and religion"? What you should be doing is asking me how. :)

Our bodies are considered an animal life form. It you say 'we' inferring our entire being? Definitely not. We are spiritual beings who have a soul. The body is only a part of our entity. Our true reality is our souls, spirit and thoughts.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think Genesis does not describe the physical world. It describes a world where light shines without the sun, the moon or the stars, and both land and sky rise out of the oceans. I think that it describes the Jewish world somehow, but I don't think it describes everybody's world.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That is never going to happen. The facts are already in and have been confirmed and validated again and again and again and again from all the disparate fields of the sciences. In fact, I would request you read this very well-written Statement on Evolution from the Botanical Society of America. I'm going to highlight certain things you need to seriously consider here, and then try to find a way to make your religious faith fit with this accurate understanding of science and the Theory of Evolution:

The Botanical Society of America has as its members professional scientists, scholars, and educators from across the United States and Canada, and from over 50 other countries. Most of us call ourselves botanists, plant biologists, or plant scientists, and members of our profession teach and learn about botanical organisms using well established principles and practices of science.

Evolution represents one of the broadest, most inclusive theories used in pursuit of and in teaching this knowledge, but it is by no means the only theory involved. Scientific theories are used in two ways: to explain what we know, and to pursue new knowledge. Evolution explains observations of shared characteristics (the result of common ancestry and descent with modification) and adaptations (the result of natural selection acting to maximize reproductive success), as well as explaining pollen;ovule ratios, weeds, deceptive pollination strategies, differences in sexual expression, dioecy, and a myriad of other biological phenomena. Far from being merely a speculative notion, as implied when someone says, “evolution is just a theory,” the core concepts of evolution are well documented and well confirmed. Natural selection has been repeatedly demonstrated in both field and laboratory, and descent with modification is so well documented that scientists are justified in saying that evolution is true.

Some people contend that creationism and its surrogate, “intelligent design,” offers an alternative explanation: that organisms are well adapted and have common characteristics because they were created just so, and they exhibit the hallmarks of intelligent design. As such, creationism is an all inclusive explanation for every biological phenomenon. So why do we support and teach evolution and not creationism/“intelligent design” if both explain the same phenomena? Are botanists just dogmatic, atheistic materialists, as some critics of science imply? Hardly, although scientists are routinely portrayed by creationists as dogmatic. We are asked, “Why, in all fairness, don’t we teach both explanations and let students decide?”

The fairness argument implies that creationism is a scientifically valid alternative to evolution, and that is not true. Science is not about fairness, and all explanations are not equal. Some scientific explanations are highly speculative with little in the way of supporting evidence, and they will stand or fall based upon rigorous testing. The history of science is littered with discarded explanations, e.g., inheritance of acquired characters, but these weren’t discarded because of public opinion or general popularity; each one earned that distinction by being scientifically falsified. Scientists may jump on a “band wagon” for some new explanation, particularly if it has tremendous explanatory power, something that makes sense out of previously unexplained phenomena. But for an explanation to become a mainstream component of a theory, it must be tested and found useful in doing science.

To make progress, to learn more about botanical organisms, hypotheses, the subcomponents of theories, are tested by attempting to falsify logically derived predictions. This is why scientists use and teach evolution; evolution offers testable explanations of observed biological phenomena. Evolution continues to be of paramount usefulness, and so, based on simple pragmatism, scientists use this theory to improve our understanding of the biology of organisms. Over and over again, evolutionary theory has generated predictions that have proven to be true. Any hypothesis that doesn’t prove true is discarded in favor of a new one, and so the component hypotheses of evolutionary theory change as knowledge and understanding grow. Phylogenetic hypotheses, patterns of ancestral relatedness, based on one set of data, for example, base sequences in DNA, are generated, and when the results make logical sense out of formerly disparate observations, confidence in the truth of the hypothesis increases. The theory of evolution so permeates botany that frequently it is not mentioned explicitly, but the overwhelming majority of published studies are based upon evolutionary hypotheses, each of which constitutes a test of an hypothesis. Evolution has been very successful as a scientific explanation because it has been useful in advancing our understanding of organisms and applying that knowledge to the solution of many human problems, e.g., host-pathogen interactions, origin of crop plants, herbicide resistance, disease susceptibility of crops, and invasive plants.

<snip>

The actual work was done by many plant biologists over many years, little by little, gathering data and testing ideas, until these evolutionary events were understood as generally described above. The hypothesized speciation events were actually recreated, an accomplishment that allows plant biologists to breed new varieties of emmer and bread wheats. Using this speciation mechanism, plant biologists hybridized wheat and rye, producing a new, vigorous, high protein cereal grain, Triticale.

What would the creationist paradigm have done? No telling. Perhaps nothing, because observing three wheat species specially created to feed humans would not have generated any questions that needed answering. No predictions are made, so there is no reason or direction for seeking further knowledge. This demonstrates the scientific uselessness of creationism. While creationism explains everything, it offers no understanding beyond, “that’s the way it was created.” No testable predictions can be derived from the creationist explanation. Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. In those few instances where predictions can be inferred from Biblical passages (e.g., groups of related organisms, migration of all animals from the resting place of the ark on Mt. Ararat to their present locations, genetic diversity derived from small founder populations, dispersal ability of organisms in direct proportion to their distance from eastern Turkey), creationism has been scientifically falsified.

Is it fair or good science education to teach about an unsuccessful, scientifically useless explanation just because it pleases people with a particular religious belief? Is it unfair to ignore scientifically useless explanations, particularly if they have played no role in the development of modern scientific concepts? Science education is about teaching valid concepts and those that led to the development of new explanations.

Creationism is the modern manifestation of a long-standing conflict between science and religion in Western Civilization. Prior to science, and in all non-scientific cultures, myths were the only viable explanations for a myriad of natural phenomena, and these myths became incorporated into diverse religious beliefs. Following the rise and spread of science, where ideas are tested against nature rather than being decided by religious authority and sacred texts, many phenomena previously attributed to the supernatural (disease, genetic defects, lightning, blights and plagues, epilepsy, eclipses, comets, mental illness, etc.) became known to have natural causes and explanations. Recognizing this, the Catholic Church finally admitted, after 451 years, that Galileo was correct; the Earth was not the unmoving center of the Universe. Mental illness, birth defects, and disease are no longer considered the mark of evil or of God’s displeasure or punishment. Epileptics and people intoxicated by ergot-infected rye are no longer burned at the stake as witches. As natural causes were discovered and understood, religious authorities were forced to alter long-held positions in the face of growing scientific knowledge. This does not mean science has disproved the existence of the supernatural. The methodology of science only deals with the material world.

Science as a way of knowing has been extremely successful, although people may not like all the changes science and its handmaiden, technology, have wrought. But people who oppose evolution, and seek to have creationism or intelligent design included in science curricula, seek to dismiss and change the most successful way of knowing ever discovered. They wish to substitute opinion and belief for evidence and testing. The proponents of creationism/intelligent design promote scientific ignorance in the guise of learning. As professional scientists and educators, we strongly assert that such efforts are both misguided and flawed, presenting an incorrect view of science, its understandings, and its processes.​

Given the track history of accurate knowledge about the natural world, science wins hands down over religious explanations. It has proven itself, in this case of Evolution particularly, to be in fact right. Religion, when trying to explain natural phenomena is the one you should be predicting to be wrong and need to reverse itself. Don't turn your prophets into magical scientists, and you'll do fine. Try to say these prophets allow you to bypass science, and be prepared to lose your faith when you can no longer deny the facts of their failures to do so.

There is nothing wrong with science and it is doing many wonderful things for humanity but sometimes it gets it wrong especially when it seeks to define man what rules does it use? Man is not just a material object. If science has a wrong definition of man all its models will be wrong. All its research and investigation will be inaccurate. Who's to define man?

In studying evolution why wouldn't science include both the material and the spiritual view? Is it afraid to be open minded that it might find man is not an animal and was a distinct species? It looks like in the study of evolution science has gagged religion. Not very scientific if it is truly open minded and wants to know all the facts.

Why only look through material glasses and denigrate the spiritual glasses to 'magic'. That which we do not know is not necessarily 'magic' a very immature description to try and exclude the Divine. Very prejudiced in my view.

Abdul-Baha tried to accomodate both views. He was a true scientist. He was open minded enough to look at the truth in both science and religion, the current theory of evolution is just an exaltation of atheism because to say man came from the animal you have to say that man has no soul or God given purpose and is just a higher animal.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not good at explaining things but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong about man being a distinct species.
You in fact are correct in saying man is a distinct species. Science agrees with this. I agree with this. Where you are wrong is in saying man is not an animal lifeform. "Animal" is not a species. There are many animal species. Man is one of those species. A Chimp is an animal species. A frog is an animal species. Humans are an animal species. It's incredibly simple.

Are you hung up on the connotation of the word "animal", that that word suggest our behaviors are nothing but impulse and instinct? That's not valid in this context. We're talking scientific classification here. Humans are animals as a classification. I'll keep it simple: Animal, vegetable, mineral. Which one does the species of man belong to? None of the above? Then name what the species of man belongs to if you have another classification system.

Science has got many things right except that their models that man is descended from an animal need more refining.
Then provide the science showing all the mountains of evidence is not right. Where is your scientific evidence? You are not free to say science is wrong about something without offering your own evidence. Science is not a matter of beliefs and opinions. Do you not understand that?

A thousand million years ago even if man was a tiny fish it was an original species - man. Although he shares many things in common with the lower species he was inherently man always.
Scientifically speaking absolutely not. Metaphorically speak, yes! I have no problem saying "Back when we lived in the sea", to speak of the fact that our species has direct ties all the way back to the very fist animal on this planet. ALL lifeforms tie back to that one. There were not two lifeforms "in the beginning."

Do you believe all life forms derive from multiple original life forms which spontaneously appeared? Where is one single shred of scientific evidence to support this? On the contrary, every single piece of evidence we have points to ALL species of animals originating in a SINGLE animal lifeform - the ancient sea sponge. Everything, all the data fits that. There is no data to support multiple original lifeforms. In reality, all animals are a single animal that has evolved into many species of that single animal. That's what science has discovered through the evidence. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sea-sponge-oldest-animal-on-earth-a6891511.html

You cannot reject the science, then claim in the next breath to be harmonizing science and religion. That is disingenuous.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They believe:
Natural selection,and randomness, through long period of time, which deny the existence God for them
Why does that deny God? Does it to you? It doesn't to me. Why does it to you?

For me, God is the only player.
God could created each one of us in less then second,as He did with Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuh).
Of course I do not believe that. I do not believe Adam and Eve were created via magic, simply "poofing" into existence as humans out of absolutely nothing. I have no problem speaking of Adam and Eve as metaphoric expressions of our early awakening from the forest primeval as self-aware, self-reflective humans. It has much truth and poetry to it. But it's not to be confused with scientific realities. That's a huge mistake on the part of some religious thought, and the reason for this discussion.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Our bodies are considered an animal life form.
Fine,then we are agreed! Why all these quotes that say we're not then?

It you say 'we' inferring our entire being? Definitely not. We are spiritual beings who have a soul. The body is only a part of our entity. Our true reality is our souls, spirit and thoughts.
Yes, of course humans have different characteristics as a distinct species. A dog is not a human. We are different from dogs. Dogs are different from us. That's what makes the species different species. :)

Neither, I nor any scientist has ever suggesting we are at the same level evolutionarily as all the other animal species. Why then all this protestation?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Christians can get along without Science, but its better to have Science. It is using our eyes to see what is coming, avoiding problems and using our hands to make clothes and homes. It is growing crops, using irrigation channels, rotating the crops and things like that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Man is not just a material object. If science has a wrong definition of man all its models will be wrong. All its research and investigation will be inaccurate. Who's to define man?
That's not a scientific definition. It's a philosophical distinction which many within science do not share. You may be confusing Philosophical Materialism with science in general. That is not the case. You have to be able to distinguish between the actual science, which clearly shows we evolved biologically from earlier animal species. That's a fact. To then later conclude we are only our biology, well that's a philosophical conclusion, not a scientific one. Do you understand the difference there?

I'll get back to the rest later....
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Why does that deny God? Does it to you? It doesn't to me. Why does it to you?
I don't know ,that's some atheists beliefs.


Of course I do not believe that. I do not believe Adam and Eve were created via magic, simply "poofing" into existence as humans out of absolutely nothing. I have no problem speaking of Adam and Eve as metaphoric expressions of our early awakening from the forest primeval as self-aware, self-reflective humans. It has much truth and poetry to it. But it's not to be confused with scientific realities. That's a huge mistake on the part of some religious thought, and the reason for this discussion.
If you are Christian , Bible was clear on that.
Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuh) created by God.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you are Christian , Bible was clear on that.
Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuh) created by God.
Being a Christian does not mean you have to belief the stories in the Bible are literal historic and scientific facts. There is no spiritual requirement for that. In fact, denying scientific facts harms faith. It denies God's creation. So to me being Christian means you need to evolve your understanding, not stay stuck in the Dark Ages.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You in fact are correct in saying man is a distinct species. Science agrees with this. I agree with this. Where you are wrong is in saying man is not an animal lifeform. "Animal" is not a species. There are many animal species. Man is one of those species. A Chimp is an animal species. A frog is an animal species. Humans are an animal species. It's incredibly simple.

Are you hung up on the connotation of the word "animal", that that word suggest our behaviors are nothing but impulse and instinct? That's not valid in this context. We're talking scientific classification here. Humans are animals as a classification. I'll keep it simple: Animal, vegetable, mineral. Which one does the species of man belong to? None of the above? Then name what the species of man belongs to if you have another classification system.


Then provide the science showing all the mountains of evidence is not right. Where is your scientific evidence? You are not free to say science is wrong about something without offering your own evidence. Science is not a matter of beliefs and opinions. Do you not understand that?


Scientifically speaking absolutely not. Metaphorically speak, yes! I have no problem saying "Back when we lived in the sea", to speak of the fact that our species has direct ties all the way back to the very fist animal on this planet. ALL lifeforms tie back to that one. There were not two lifeforms "in the beginning."

Do you believe all life forms derive from multiple original life forms which spontaneously appeared? Where is one single shred of scientific evidence to support this? On the contrary, every single piece of evidence we have points to ALL species of animals originating in a SINGLE animal lifeform - the ancient sea sponge. Everything, all the data fits that. There is no data to support multiple original lifeforms. In reality, all animals are a single animal that has evolved into many species of that single animal. That's what science has discovered through the evidence. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sea-sponge-oldest-animal-on-earth-a6891511.html

You cannot reject the science, then claim in the next breath to be harmonizing science and religion. That is disingenuous.

The definition of man for us is his body and his spirit or soul as one entity. So man in that definition is not an animal.

If you're only talking about his body in its cellular structure millions of years ago it was still potentially man. He shares things physically in common with all the kingdoms but belongs to what we say is the human kingdom.

So say take a seed. In it is the DNA for an orange tree and that is its purpose. It will only be an orange tree not any other fruit or life form.

So the seed of man was always going to grow into the tree of man.

The seed of the animal was always going to be an animal. It was by design not an accident of nature but each 'seed' evolved until its 'tree' appeared. From the seed of man we evolved into what we are now. And the same with the other kingdoms. The ape 'seed' did not one day evolve into a human seed as its species essence belonged to the animal kingdom so it's evolution tree was different. The seed was always what it was originally programmed to be.

Now we understand that man was not an accident of nature. Neither his body nor his spirit was an accident of nature. But he was not in as advanced a state millions of years ago as now. He evolved but always as man even if he walked on all fours.

Our cells or atoms were invested with human gene mapping so it would develop into a human being albeit through stages of evolution.

We agree man evolved both physically and spiritually. At one time he might have walked on all fours and could not read and write. Then he stood upright and gradually as he became more aware he developed more intellectually and spiritually and was also nurtured by Prophets Who came when he was ready to understand them.

So man, the complete man, evolved and we agree with much of evolution only that from the very beginning he was always potentially man. His line or genealogy was that of man. In his seed was always potential man so his tree produced humanity. His initial 'seed' was human not anything else.

Please excuse the quote but it says what I want to say very closely.

"We don't believe man has always had the form of man, but rather that from the outset he was going to evolve into the human form and species and not be a haphazard branch of the ape family." (Effendi, 1982, p. 85)

Man's body may have resembled an animal but still even then he still would have been the highest form of existence as he is now.

This is all very good learning.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's not a scientific definition. It's a philosophical distinction which many within science do not share. You may be confusing Philosophical Materialism with science in general. That is not the case. You have to be able to distinguish between the actual science, which clearly shows we evolved biologically from earlier animal species. That's a fact. To then later conclude we are only our biology, well that's a philosophical conclusion, not a scientific one. Do you understand the difference there?

I'll get back to the rest later....

We say he evolved biologically but along a different line and although it may look like he branched from the animal he didn't. He evolved along an independent evolutionary line of his own.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Fine,then we are agreed! Why all these quotes that say we're not then?


Yes, of course humans have different characteristics as a distinct species. A dog is not a human. We are different from dogs. Dogs are different from us. That's what makes the species different species. :)

Neither, I nor any scientist has ever suggesting we are at the same level evolutionarily as all the other animal species. Why then all this protestation?

It might be our different definitions of 'man'. We define man as primarily a spiritual being in a physical body.

We are said to walk the spiritual path with practical feet.

I never denied that man once had an animal form just that his original 'seed' was always intended to be human as in my other post.

I'm really learning a lot.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The definition of man for us is his body and his spirit or soul as one entity. So man in that definition is not an animal.
I don't disagree with this necessarily. But so we are on the same page, which I believe we are now, this definition is not a scientific definition. Nor should it be a scientific definition. Science and the Theory of Evolution specifically here is ONLY dealing with our biology. It is not addressing spiritual aspirations, dreams, the hopes, the artistry of humankind. Those are other disciplines dealing with the humanities.

Science saying we evolved from an earlier species of animals, is not talking about our "humanness", our "humanity". It's talking about the origins of our species as homo sapien. Understand from the context if we say "human" in regard to evolution, we are only talking about our biological species homo sapien. We are not talking things like spirit and soul. Those are not scientific distinctions. Likewise science does not say those don't exist. It only says those are not scientific things for science to look at.

For instance, here are our biological ancestors: http://amazingbeautifulworld.com/history/10-transitional-ancestors-of-human-evolution/ These were not "humans" in the sense of the species homo sapien. But were they "us" before we were homo sapiens? Yes. Sure. But you have to then say "we" or "us" is more than being homo sapiens. To say there were "us" is to make a metaphoric, or poetic claim - certainly not a scientific biological claim.

If you're only talking about his body in its cellular structure millions of years ago it was still potentially man. He shares things physically in common with all the kingdoms but belongs to what we say is the human kingdom.
I'd be careful in blurring lines too far. Would you say the ancient sea sponge from will all animal lifeforms evolved was part of the 'human kingdom"? If you would, that's a whole other discussion we could have. :)

So say take a seed. In it is the DNA for an orange tree and that is its purpose. It will only be an orange tree not any other fruit or life form.

So the seed of man was always going to grow into the tree of man.
I wish you wouldn't cross from plants to animals here. :) But lets put it this way. Will the DNA of a rat produce a human? No. That's not possible. But the common ancestor of rats and humans produced lines that became rats on one branch, and humans on another. Both rats and humans share a common ancestor, somewhere back there. But one we are established as a distinct species, we keep reproducing that species, until some change in the pattern happens and a new species evolves, which then keeps reproducing that species, and so on and so forth.

The seed of the animal was always going to be an animal.
Correct. An animal will not evolve into a plant. It will evolve into another species of animal, if that's going to happen.

It was by design not an accident of nature but each 'seed' evolved until its 'tree' appeared.
I think you, and many people misunderstand this "accident". This process of evolution, these series of "trials and errors" is what in fact "designs" a species that can survive! It is design! It just uses this process to accomplish its goal of survival. It does have a purpose, and that is to create viable life forms which can survive. It's not necessary to add "thought out in advance". And that comes squarely back to my post where I feel I nailed the reason people are uncomfortable with the idea of evolution. Please read my last several paragraphs of that post again. http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-christianity-support.189645/page-7#post-4885592

From the seed of man we evolved into what we are now. And the same with the other kingdoms. The ape 'seed' did not one day the evolve into a human seed as its species essence belonged to the animal kingdom so it's evolution tree was different. The seed was always what it was originally programmed to be.
So do you believe the common ancestor of both humans and apes had this "seed" of what we were to evolve into in our separate branches within that species? I would really like to understand your thinking on this.

I have to get back to the rest later. This is too much to keep up with at the moment. :)
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Being a Christian does not mean you have to belief the stories in the Bible are literal historic and scientific facts. There is no spiritual requirement for that. In fact, denying scientific facts harms faith. It denies God's creation. So to me being Christian means you need to evolve your understanding, not stay stuck in the Dark Ages.

Sorry you made confused each time,I am affraid this not place to discuss like the way I do.
do you denied that God created Adam (pbuh) and Eve (pbuh) ?
Do you consider teaching of Bible Dark Ages, which mean not valid any more ?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry you made confused each time,I am affraid this not place to discuss like the way I do.
do you denied that God created Adam (pbuh) and Eve (pbuh) ?
Do you consider teaching of Bible Dark Ages, which mean not valid any more ?
The Bible is very different from Q'uran. Q'uran is written by one person's hand. The Bible is a lot of books by many people. The Bible does not say "You must read the Bible" or "You should accept Genesis." The Q'uran says things like that. The Bible doesn't.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
do you denied that God created Adam (pbuh) and Eve (pbuh) ?
I do not believe Adam and Eve were literal individuals. I believe they are symbolic characters that represent humanity in general. Do I believe God created humans? Yes. God creates everything.

Do you consider teaching of Bible Dark Ages, which mean not valid any more ?
I believe believing it the way people did in the Dark Age is not the way we should be believing it today. It's still valid, but it has to be understood in a more modern, scientifically compatible way. The people in the Dark Ages had no knowledge of what we do today. To try to emulate their ignorance is not a valid thing to do. They were true to what they knew then, and we should be true to what we know now. It's that simple.
 
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