What is Contemplative Christianity?

[InChrist]

I'll just converse with InChrist. She is able to respond with intelligent replies and questions. You should study how she listens to others and asks appropriate questions. I'll respond to those sorts of replies and they are respectable. So, unless you shift radically, I'll not be responding anymore to you as it's just nothing but attempts at clean up of the mangled mess you make of everything you push through the gristmill of your thought processes. You seem incapable of reasoned dialog. You just see what you're mind butchers and refuse to listen to others or try to understand. That's not a healthy approach to anything, let alone spiritual knowledge and growth.

I think if your estimation of one who reads and believes the scriptures in a plain sense as the revealed Word of God, believes God is a distinct Being above human beings, believes that the Person of Jesus Christ is the eternal Son, the unique perfect one and only fully God/fully human Being and Savior, and that all must personally trust Him for forgiveness of sin and eternal life, means that such a person is mentally ill then you may as well consign me to your list of those with mental illness along with Yoshua.

I don't know if Yoshua and I would agree on every detail in our Christian walk there is no doubt that he knows and loves the real historical Person of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world as revealed in the Word of God which he faithfully upholds. Although, I've never met Yoshua since he lives on the other side of the world, I do know we are one in Christ and we will joyfully spend eternity with the LORD.

 

[Windwalker]

I think therein lies a problem, to be “working off the opinion” of many out there, even Martin Luther himself. For one thing, Martin Luther, although used in mightily by the LORD in church history, had his incorrect opinions. His extreme anti-Semitism directly clashed with the scriptures. Secondly, I think it would be an important thing to look into what others meant when or if they inferred that Christians were ‘little Christs”. It is very possible they meant something entirely different from the mystical,concept you are trying to derive.

I really think it has no bearing on what I've been saying either way what the "right" interpretation of the word Christian means. I actually do agree with what Well Named pointed out, and I had read that myself before posting, and think it is the better opinion of what the word meant. My point was that Christians, and there are many who think the word means "little Christ", would say calling themselves a "little Christ" while saying "no, no, no! There can be only one, and that's not us!", is ironic. That was my point. And still is. As I said elsewhere is not about "reflecting" anything, but about "being" that in the world.

It is one thing for a Christian to be like Christ in their godly character and behavior (fruits of the Spirit), as this is the teaching of the Bible. But to claim that a created human being can be or is as Christ in His Eternal God essence/nature, but is unaware and needs to realize this, is to reinterpret and give an unbiblical twist to the scriptures and truth of being conformed to the image of Christ.

I think the right word is "transformed". That's a different meaning than conformity. Transformation changes your being into something, where you become that, you are that. Very different than "looking like" something.

Earlier I said that the scriptures of the Bible interpret themselves, which you readily discounted.

And rightly so! Only humans interpret. Not books. You did not refute any points I raised as to why it is impossible for the Bible to "interpret itself". Care to give it a try? Ignoring those very valid points is not a response.

Yet, I think it is the scriptures which define what “Christian” means as they do all biblical/spiritual triths, irrelevant of anyone’s opinion. If you look up the word Christian in the NT it is only used about three times. Similar words such as, follower or followed are used about 65 times, disciple around 279 times, and apostle(s) 88 times. Studying these words in their context reveals a lot and gives a clear definition as to their meaning and what Christians did or did not do, or what a Christian is or is not. Some of the primary things these Christians, followers, disciples, and apostles of Jesus Christ did was ...believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, believed in Jesus, believed the scriptures, saw and believed the risen Lord Jesus with the marks of the wounds in His hands and side, spread the gospel about Jesus the Savior, preached forgiveness of sins through His shed blood, continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, sanctify the Lord God in their hearts, have love for one another, suffer for righteousness’ sake, and glorify God.

So, it "interpreted itself" for you, but apparently not forMartin Luther, the Bible failed to interpret itself properly? How logical is this, really?

Again, I really don't care what the word Christian really means. It's not relevant to my points. It was an ironic point I was making, based on how many understand the world to mean. But here, it is clear the Bible does not interpret itself, because you understand things differently than someone else.

New Testament spirituality is repentance toward God (because we are separated by sin), faith in the Person of Jesus Christ, regeneration and the indwelling and enabling power of the Holy Spirit, all based on the propositional revealed truth of Scripture.

And everything I am saying is supported by scripture too. I just read it differently than you do. You just won't admit you are interpreting it. Why?

There is not one mention or even hint that Christians who were ( or are now) followers of Jesus Christ were ever taught by Him or believed themselves that they were to turn within through contemplative prayer, mysticism and realize their own divinity or that they were “little Christs”.

Haven't we covered this already, that the Bible does not teach techniques of prayer, in its many, many forms and practices? It's not an instruction manual of "how to pray", and I'm quite positive I could analyze your practices and not find them spelled out in detail either. Why be so selective then in saying it doesn't specify exact practices that are in contemplative prayer? That's not very honest. But my real point is to ask this question which I have countless times. Let's come from the other direction, which would should. How does contemplative prayer violate what is taught in the Bible? How does it produce results that violate Jesus' teachings? It bears good fruit. How can that be evil? "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". Please explain how you then can claim it does?

I think Meister Eckhart in his confused mystical panentheistic/ pantheistic view simply swallowed the greatest lie of all time.

Of course, you are the Judge. How is that humility?

What if God is GOD, and you are not? Do you care? If it is true that God alone is GOD, would you defer to this truth or prefer to remain in your own unreality?

Well, I've covered all this many times. I do prefer the Truth of God. I just understand that in a different light than you do. Your views are not the judge of that Truth. And you err greatly believing they are.

 

[Windwalker]

I think if your estimation of one who reads and believes the scriptures in a plain sense as the revealed Word of God, believes God is a distinct Being above human beings, believes that the Person of Jesus Christ is the eternal Son, the unique perfect one and only fully God/fully human Being and Savior, and that all must personally trust Him for forgiveness of sin and eternal life, means that such a person is mentally ill then you may as well consign me to your list of those with mental illness along with Yoshua.

My Lord! How in the world did you intepret that I said that people who believe as you do are mentally ill??? I never said that, and I do not believe that!! I said, to Yoshua, that mentally ill people can be attracted to religion, and that just because they are part of religion, it doesn't mean they are well! Dear Lord, how clear do I have to be? Frustrating.

I don't know if Yoshua and I would agree on every detail in our Christian walk there is no doubt that he knows and loves the real historical Person of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world as revealed in the Word of God which he faithfully upholds. Although, I've never met Yoshua since he lives on the other side of the world, I do know we are one in Christ and we will joyfully spend eternity with the LORD.

That's great. It doesn't mean he isn't challenged in ways of understanding others, or that he is free of any struggles because he believes in the Bible. But that is what he was arguing. Perhaps you didn't read my posts very well. I know my posts may be "wordy", but they are in fact quite clear and precise in language, which is why I can't tolerate the quality of responses I've been getting from him. It's nothing but correcting his misinterpretations.

Say, speaking of misinterpreting! Here I am telling you my exact thoughts, and yet you didn't read them right! Don't kid yourself, it's the same with reading the Bible. You hear what your filters lets you here. The difference is, I'm hear to scream, "No, not right!" I hope one day you'll see this truth about your own subjective filters when it comes to everything, include the Bible.

 

[Yoshua]

No, you don't, and more's the pity.

Hi Sojourner,

See. Where is the basis? Is it someone told you? by experience? How can you prove that theory (if without validity), to believe as your faith in Jesus Christ??

I didn't say, "human beings aren't sinful." I said, "being human isn't sinful."

Then, then it validates and consistent with the statement of Jesus.

Yes, so long as each is preaching love and union with the Divine.

Oh. I see it. So John 3:16 and John 14:6 are counted—as you share Christianity to others?

Because Jesus' truth is the truth of love.

So, Jesus truth is about love; how about other beliefs like Buddhism, Muslim and Hindus?

You have no idea what I'm talking about. Further, your perspective on "what the bible says" about love is narrow (and shallow) in the extreme.

Ok then. What is the love of God given to people? How God show his love to people? I want to see the wide and not shallow perspective of yours.

God saves humanity. God brings people to eternal life. And God is bigger than Christianity or Christian doctrine.

God saves humanity from what? The God that you mentioned is the God of what beliefs?

When you look at a picture, are you actually having a conversation, or touching, or having some kind of interpersonal intercourse with a person -- or are you experiencing a memory of such things that happened in the past, and are no longer happening right now? If you're honest, you'll say that you're experiencing a memory of something that happened in the past, and is not happening right now.

When you're with someone in the actual moment, are you experiencing a memory, or are you experiencing a real interpersonal exchange? Are you actually seeing, touching, and hearing the other person, or are you only recalling something you've seen and touched and heard before?

The Eucharist (like the crucifixion) is an event that is always happening. The moment lies outside temporal experience, so that we participate in it -- no matter the "moment in time." That's the understanding of anamnesis. "Remembering a past event" isn't the same thing as "living a present moment outside the confines of temporal experience."

Hmmm. I have here an article about the “Eucharist” in relation with the emerging church. I would like to hear your comment about this.

The Catholic Mass vs the Cross
By Roger Oakland

Eucharistic Evangelization
For those who are not aware of the Catholic Church’s New Evangelization program, let me provide a brief overview. The Catholic Church plans to establish the kingdom of God on earth and win the world to the Catholic Jesus (i.e., the Eucharistic Christ). This will be accomplished when the world (including the separated brethren*) comes under the rule and reign of Rome and this Eucharistic Jesus.

The Eucharistic Jesus is supposedly Christ’s presence that a Catholic priest summons through the power of transubstantiation, the focal point of the Mass.
Many Christians believe the Christian tradition of communion is the same as the Catholic tradition of the Eucharist. But this is not so. The Eucharist (i.e., transubstantiation) is a Catholic term for communion when the bread and the wine are said to be transformed into the very body and blood of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Catechism states:

In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.”2

The host is then placed in what is called a monstrance and can then be worshiped as if worshiping Jesus Himself. The implications are tied directly to salvation itself. With the Eucharist, salvation becomes sacramental (participation in a ritual) as opposed to justification by faith in Christ alone, described in Galatians 2:16. While this mystical experience is a form of idolatry (as well as the very heart of Catholicism), there is a growing interest by evangelical Christians in this practice, particularly by the emerging church.

The Catholic Church leadership, concerned with apathy for the Eucharist within the Catholic ranks, is hoping to “rekindle the amazement”3 of the Eucharist through what is called their “New Evangelization program.”4 With a two-fold purpose—to keep present Catholics and to bring evangelicals into the Catholic Church—church leadership has a plan to re-emphasize the Eucharist as the focus of the Catholic faith. By saying “rekindle the amazement,” they mean bring out the mystical, supernatural element of the Eucharist.

All Catholics are expected to worship the host (Eucharistic adoration of the transformed wafer), and church leadership says it is anathema (to be accursed) to reject this teaching. At the Council of Trent, the official Catholic position was:

If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.5

If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, let him be anathema.6

While it is true that during the Reformation and Counter Reformation, many who refused to believe in transubstantiation were tortured and executed for their faith in the Gospel, time has a way of forgetting the facts of history.

In April of 2003, the previous pope wrote an encyclical promoting the “New Evangelization” program for the purpose of “rekindling amazement” for the Eucharist.7

Then in October of 2004, John Paul II initiated “The Year of the Eucharist” as part of his evangelistic plan to bring the world to the Eucharistic Christ. Following Pope John Paul’s death in April of 2005, Pope Benedict XVI picked up his predecessor’s mission immediately. He called the “faithful to intensify” devotion to the Eucharistic Jesus, and said the Eucharist is the “heart of Christian life.”8

Benedict hoped to perpetuate his pontificate where the previous pope left off. The article states:

Pope Benedict asked the faithful to “intensify in coming months love and devotion to the Eucharistic Jesus and to express in a courageous and clear way the real presence of the Lord.”9

Pope Benedict XVI suggested that praying to Mary would help “all Christians” draw closer to the Eucharistic Christ:

Mary is the “Eucharistic woman”.… Let us pray to the Virgin that all Christians may deepen their faith in the Eucharistic mystery, so that they live in constant communion with Jesus and are his valid witnesses.10

It is important to note here that the entire premise of the Catholic Mass is critically flawed. During each Mass, the Eucharistic Jesus is offered as an unbloody sacrifice. This repeated offering is in contradiction to the one-time new covenant offering of Hebrews 9:28:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice the verse indicates one offering, not numerous ones. The reason for this is apparent—in the essence of any sacrifice, there has to be some element of suffering, pain, or loss. Christ suffered for our sins, and God accepted this as a one-time offering for sin. Isaiah 53:10 explains: “Yet it pleased the LORD [the Father] to bruise him,” and “he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.” It also says that when God, the Father sees, “the travail of his [Christ’s] soul,” He “shall be satisfied” (vs. 11).

Calvary was the only offering that was or ever could be accepted by God—for it was the only one that contained the “travail of his soul.” If the Mass, which Catholic apologists openly acknowledge, does not contain the suffering of Christ (which it doesn’t), then it cannot be presented as an offering, because it does not fit the Isaiah 53 context.

Further, Hebrews 12:2 says Christ “endured the cross, despising the shame.” Thus, the Mass cannot be the same as the Cross, for Jesus would constantly be in a state of shame. Therefore, the Mass is empty. It cannot atone for sins.

To read more about the connection between the emerging church and the road to Rome, read Roger Oakland’s book, Faith Undone.

Endnotes:
1. According to Catholic teaching, the Eucharist is the central component of the Mass. It is believed that when a priest consecrates the Communion bread, the wafer is no longer bread, but the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. For a better understanding of the Eucharist and the Catholic’s New Evangelization plan , read Roger Oakland’s book, Another Jesus, Lighthouse Trails Edition.
2. Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 1374, page 383.6
3. H. J. Schroeder, The Canons and Decrees of The Council of Trent (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, 1978), page 79, Canon 1.
4. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, “The New Evangelization” (http://www.ewtn.com/new_evangelization/Ratzinger.htm).
5. H. J. Schroeder, The Canons and Decrees of The Council of Trent, op. cit., p. 79. Canon 1.
6. Ibid., page 80, Canon 8.
7. Zenit: The World Seen From Rome, “Why the Pope Would Write an Encyclical on the Eucharist: To Rekindle Amazement,” cited April 17, 2003, http://www.zenit.org.
8. “Pope Benedict calls on faithful to intensify devotion to Eucharistic Jesus,” http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=3686.
9. Ibid.
10. “Pope Benedict on Corpus Christi” (Zenit News, June 2006).
11. “Exploring a Catholic Rite” (Newsday, Long Island, NY, June 19, 2006).
12. Ibid.
13. Ibid.

There is no one "right" interpretation.

John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

My interpretation to John 3:16 is because of the love of God, He will save people from perishing by sending His only begotten Son Jesus Christ so people will have the hope of eternal life by believing Jesus as the Son of God, Saviour and Lord.

Is the interpretation right or wrong?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

John 17:21

No. It is not, you are promoting a New Age concept. No Christian (a follower of Christ) say the good news—is we are one.By Yoshua

I just expound & explain briefly this chapter referring to the “oneness.” Anyway, I will reiterate some of it.

John 17:1-26
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2. "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4. "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The v.1 to v.5 is the petition of Jesus.

6. "I have manifested Your name to the men (Apostle/disciples) whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You (Father) gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7. "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8. "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9. "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. (for those believers and followers only)
10. "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11. "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

The oneness here is the unity of the believers and the followers of Christ; it is not call for ecumenism—oneness of all different religion and beliefs. Jesus once said, follow me. I don’t think all religion and belief will carry their own cross because they are not a follower or a disciple of Jesus Christ.

12. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13. "But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14. "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. ( the world hated the follower of Christ)
15. "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16. "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. (The follower of Christ is not of the world)

Any belief that is not of Jesus is considered as “not of the world.” They should be the follower of Jesus Christ only.

17. "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
(the importance of the word of God is the truth )
18. "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

This is the prayer for His Disciples, and not for those unbelievers. Take note of that.

The following are the basis why Christ prayed for them:
1.) God had given the Apostles/disciples to be with Jesus.
2.) The prayer of Jesus is based on their faith in Him.
3.) The Apostles/disciples received Jesus Christ’s words, same as the Father’s words. They accepted.
4.) They believed that He is the Son of God, and He was sent into the world.
5.) They have an intimate relationship with Christ.

20. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
(Jesus is referring to believers who will uttered and testify who Jesus was).

21. "that they (believers) all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, (the “us” here is the family of believers/followers; “one in Us” is to believe that the Father sent Jesus Christ) that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
(Jesus is referring to the unity of the believers as the Father and the Son is also in unity; thus, the unity was to be an evidence to the world that Jesus Christ came from God and was God )
23. "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25. "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26. "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.''
The v.20 to v.26 is prayer for the family of the believers.

Therefore, the “one” or “oneness” for New Age is composed of multi-religion/beliefs, while the “one” or “oneness" for Jesus’ Christianity is composed of His followers (disciples) and believers only. When we say disciples or followers, they are the one who follow the words of Jesus Christ wholeheartedly. This does not include all other faiths as being one in ecumenism.

That's not how I see it. What does it mean to "become a disciple of Christ?" Does it mean to "believe certain things about Jesus?" Or, does it mean "to do what Jesus told us to do?" -- That is, to love one another?

John 8:31
31. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

There is no disciple that does not believe in Christ Jesus; how could Jesus telling us to deny ourselves and follow Him if you do not believe?

mathétés: a disciple
Original Word: μαθητής, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: mathétés
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ay-tes')
Short Definition: a learner, disciple, pupil
Definition: a learner, disciple, pupil.biblehub

Luke 14:27
27. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me (follow) cannot be My disciple.

I believe “carrying your own cross” is not just loving each other but giving up all the things that is not in accordance to the will of God--for righteousness. What are those? Those are the world, for the world hates the follower of Christ. The world includes man-made philosophy, pleasures, vices, evil practices, idolatry, love of money, lust of the flesh, sorcery etc..

Discipleship Tested
25. Now great multitudes were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26. "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
(this is total denying/giving up of oneself from the phrase “even his own life,” Jesus is the only one who will be followed)
27. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28. "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it?
29. "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30. saying, `This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
31. "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and take counsel whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32. "Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks terms of peace.
33. "So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
34. "Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
35. "It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 1:17
17. And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."
(Jesus said “follow me,” He wants to be followed, and a follower to follow Him.)

Matt. 28:19
19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(Jesus want us to make disciples, a follower to propagate His word)

Therefore, your reasoning that to be a disciple is to love—is not the primary command of being a disciple. “Come and Follow Me” is the term that Jesus usually used. We follow first to show your love to Jesus. Jesus never say “Love Me” so you may follow me, that is a weird way of showing your love. The love can be deceiving in one’s heart; he may say he loves, but a superficial love—just only by mouth. Man is not born—to love (human being); it is Christ who first loved us. We respond to His love by following Jesus. I believed If anyone don’t have the heart to follow Jesus, that proves he did not have the heart to love Him.

Other belief systems promote love of self, love of others and love of Deity.

Yes that is true, other beliefs/faith promote love, but Christianity promotes higher than love, that would be dedication/surrendering of one’s life, obedience/loyalty and becoming a follower (disciple). That’s the difference indeed for Christianity which other find it difficult to accept. The key word is to follow.

Mark 1:17
17. And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."

Christianity isn't properly a religion -- it's a way of being. Any religion can be "Christian" in nature, when it promotes love.

Just in nature only, that would mean there is more higher than this. That is a generalized attribute for all/any religion. There is a love for Buddha, a love for Hindu, a love for Muslim……now who has the greatest love among those religion/beliefs?

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us.

This is a very nice choice of Scripture, but I don’t’ think this is the answer nearer to my question. The man who cast-out demons in Jesus name showed his faith in Jesus—as a believer. The man may not be in their company (as with the disciples), but applied what the disciples also did by casting out demons.

How? Genetically, we are All. The. Same.

The family of Jesus Christ and the family of Buddha is totally separated. by Yoshua

First, are you familiar with the genealogy specified in the book of Matthew? I don’t see anything in relation with that genealogy. Second, their teachings is totally different especially their view toward God. Furthermore, their principle are not the same at all.

I don't think you know enough to "realize the truth," judging by your posts here.

I’m just frankly sharing it. The truth that I know is the truth confessed by Christ.

You're confused because you incorrectly believe that there is "only one belief" and "only one truth."

I’m confused?? Logically, if a person believed so many things (as many truths)is confusing rather than concentrating in one belief??

"Only through Jesus" isn't "internal" -- it's external. This is why you're so confused.

How come the truth of Jesus is external?? I believe Jesus is offering the eternal life to everyone personally. He said “Come and Follow Me,” that is absolutely personal and internal.

Truth is truth, with different "clothing" for each belief system.

So, it seems that I can relate with you regarding this. As before, I believed in Buddha and Roman Catholicism, I can’t have two masters. Jesus said, I am the truth, that would mean He is the truth. That is an answer to your “Truth is truth.” If the truth of Jesus will wear with different clothing (belief system), that truth will be tainted with the untruth because Jesus claimed He is only the truth. Logical

Did you know anyone who claimed the truth other than Jesus?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I seriously am just smiling at your responses, wondering how challenging can what I am saying be to anybody. Yet, you manage somehow to extract the most bizarre possible responses. I can't even predict your responses they are so out-of-true. Anyway, not that my responses matter as you'll just push them through the twisted gristmill of you unique logic processes and come out with some spaghetti response, but I'll answer anyway.

Very simple. Here it goes. I'm not claiming anything either way. Never have, never will. I'm too smart to say he was practicing yoga, lotus positions, jumping jacks, or high-speed head spins. Scripture doesn't say what he was doing. He could have been doing what you claim he was as well. It doesn't say, so I can't make a positive claim he was not doing what you say. I just can't say. And neither can you. You cannot say he was not spinning on his head, you cannot say he was not doing yoga, you cannot say he wasn't sitting in a lotus position. Neither you, nor I can make any claims. Yet, YOU ARE!

Now, I know all of that is just going to drop straight though into a pile of some mangled mess that your will argue against. But know this, you're still not understanding the simple logic of this, and it's highly doubtful you ever can. If you can't deal with this simple logic, why should I bother responding to anything else you say?

I'll just converse with InChrist. She is able to respond with intelligent replies and questions. You should study how she listens to others and asks appropriate questions. I'll respond to those sorts of replies and they are respectable. So, unless you shift radically, I'll not be responding anymore to you as it's just nothing but attempts at clean up of the mangled mess you make of everything you push through the gristmill of your thought processes. You seem incapable of reasoned dialog. You just see what you're mind butchers and refuse to listen to others or try to understand. That's not a healthy approach to anything, let alone spiritual knowledge and growth.

Hi Windwalker,

I’m being objective to clarify things about your answer, the facts that we are discussing. Again, we are in General Debate discussion. This is an exchange of ideas, proving what I have and what you have. Take a review with your post about your wordings, same as how you reacted since the start of our discussion. I don’t think I need to post it one by one and enumerate those to show you. All those things are not a big deal to me, and I gave my full understanding with that. I’ll accept all those things and I know where I’m into. We both learned something, and take a deep breath to lower down your emotion. Let us make use of the RF privilege to discuss.

I’m glad to see you converse with InChrist. Sure. We are still a family of RF. No problem with that.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

But rowdies one come to know Jesus and his teachings, in order to have faith in the first place?

I think we both know what is faith? When we dine in a restaurant, we eat the food that was served—is an act of faith; when we seat in our chair; walking down the narrow street; traveling and others. All the things that we do is by faith. Now, if we read the Bible—knowing Jesus’ teachings and promises—is also by faith. Not only that, since this is an inspired word of God (if you’ll believe or not), there is power of His word; it can change lives and bring people in His righteousness. Therefore, faith comes from listening/reading the word of God.

And that fragility is always part of him, just as someone having been addicted is always part of that person's fabric of life.

Hmmm. I don’t think a God who will save the soul of many is a fragile thing. There is no one who can surpass that salvation.

By the way, addiction is really not a good sign. Anything that is addiction is bad. It should always be in balance. Now, as I remembered Windwalker told me that I’m addicted to the word of God, I honestly tell you that if you know me personally, you will change your mind about me. I know someone who is well verse with the Scriptures, and I don’t see him as addicted. When God said ‘meditate the Scripture day and night,’ can we say that God is pushing us—to be addicted to His word, or He is telling us not to stop/forgetting His word?

No one is addicted to His word. No sinner is capable and able to seek God. It is by faith, and by the urging of the Holy Spirit that keeps knocking in our heart and mind—to read the word of God. This is what we called “thirst in God’s word.” I’ve already experienced that hunger especially when your flesh is weak, failed to meditate His word.

If New Agers love, then they are following Christ.

They may have love, of course, but that does not mean they following Jesus Christ. Following is doing what God want and not who God was. Here is some pointers about the New Age.

Neil Anderson in his book, Walking Through the Darkness, writes this: “The New Age movement is not seen as a religion but a new way to think and understand reality. It’s very attractive to the natural man who has become disillusioned with organized religion and Western rationalism. He desires spiritual reality but doesn’t want to give up materialism, deal with his moral problems, or come under authority” (page 22). Anderson goes on to summarize New Age thinking (pages 22–24) as follows:

(1) It is monism. The belief that all is one and one is all. History is not the story of humanity’s fall into sin and its restoration by God’s saving grace. Rather, it is humanity’s fall into ignorance and the gradual ascent into enlightenment.

(2) All is God. If all is one, including God, then one must conclude that all is God. It is pantheism—trees, snails, books, and people are all of one divine essence. A personal God who has revealed Himself in the Bible and in Jesus Christ is completely rejected. Since God is impersonal, the New Ager doesn’t have to serve Him. God is an “it,” not a “He.”

(3) There is a change in consciousness. If we are God, we need to know we are God. We must become cosmically conscious, enlightened, or attuned to the cosmic consciousness. Some who reach this enlightened status will claim to be “born again”—a counterfeit of biblical conversion. The essential is not whether we believe or meditate, but whom we believe in and what we meditate upon. Christ is the true, personal, objective reality, as He said that He is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).

(4) A cosmic evolutionary optimism is taught. There is a New Age coming. There will be a new world order, a new world government. New Age thinkers believe that there will eventually be a progressive unification of world consciousness. This, according to the Bible, is a counterfeit kingdom led by Satan himself. Christ has the true kingdom, and He will one day rule on earth with peace for all who accept Him as Savior and King (Revelation 5:13).

(5) New Agers create their own reality. They believe they can create reality by what they believe, and, by changing what they believe, they can change reality. All moral boundaries have been erased. There are no absolutes because there is no distinction between good and evil. Nothing has reality until one says that it is reality or says that it is truth. If finite man can create truth, we are in desperate trouble in our society. Unless there are eternal absolutes from the eternal God, man will eventually be his own destruction.

(6) New Agers make contact with the kingdom of darkness. Calling a medium a “channeler” and a demon a “spirit guide” has not changed the reality of what they are. This is the kingdom of darkness of which Satan is the head. Those involved in this kind of activity are in contact with a world that is totally opposed to the biblical God revealed to us in Jesus Christ, who defeated Satan (Matthew 4:1–11; Colossians 2:15; Hebrews 2:14–18).

"Gospel" is a generic term. There are any number of gospel messages. That's not the gospel that Jesus preached. Jesus preached the gospel that God's kingdom had come near.

euaggelion: good news
Original Word: εὐαγγέλιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: euaggelion
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on)
Short Definition: the good news, the gospel
Definition: the good news of the coming of the Messiah, the gospel; the gen. after it expresses sometimes the giver (God), sometimes the subject (the Messiah, etc.), sometimes the human transmitter (an apostle).

If the gospel means the good news, that would mean the hope of salvation that was offered to us--is the gospel. In reference to the Corinthian verses, it was stated the whole scenario of what Jesus Christ did for us, He died, He was buried, and He rose. God’s kingdom had come near has the same agenda, and the detail is what 1 Cor. stated.

Luke 21:27-28
27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So I guess the first and greatest commandment is bogus, then. We don't have to "love the Lord our God" because we only have to "believe, submit, and surrender."

Matt. 22:34-37
34. But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

If love in this Scripture does not involve believing, submitting, surrendering and obeying, this is a bogus.
There is a cost in discipleship.
Matt.16:24
24. Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Believing:
Acts 16:31
31. And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."

Rom. 10:9
9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;(gospel)
10. for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Surrendering:
Luke 14:33
33. "So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Matt. 16:25-26
25. "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it.
26. "For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Submission:
Luke 14:26
26. "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Obedience:
John 8:31
31. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 14:23-24
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.
24. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

God's will is that we love.

Rom. 12:2
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Thess. 4:3-4
3. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4. that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor

Based on the Scripture, the will of God is to sanctify our lives for Him, by renewing our mind and not conforming to this world. Now, let us see what is this “world,” and what are they.

Col. 2:8
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (according to Christ is the will of Christ—for us)

James 4:4
4. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God

1 John 3:13
13. Do not marvel, brethren, if the world hates you.

John 15:18-21
18. "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20. "Remember the word that I said to you, `A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21. "But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

I think you need to understand that the ancients who wrote the bible conceived "marriage" differently than we do.

We are discussing on the current situation. Sex before marriage. Do we?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Christianity has done that since the very beginning. Jesus compromised the Law of the Judaic religion. Paul further compromised it.

I don’t think so. If you think that there is a compromise for Christ, this is the will of the Father. The old has become new to Christ. We cannot question Christ Jesus about what He is doing. Same with Paul, he continue to proclaim and propagate the good news to many. God chose him for Christ’s ministry. The word of God was laid down to us; men who will compromise with the word of God can be easily trace because of the transparency of Scripture. They differed immensely with Jesus and Paul—in compared with our current condition.

Wow. If that's what you really believe, I'm certainly glad I don't go to your church.

Yes. I believed this is what is inside the Scripture whether you like it or not. It is not my church, it is Christ’s church.

1.) A soldier committed his life to serve his country—as Christian committed his life to Jesus/God.

John 1:43
43. The next day He purposed to go forth into Galilee, and He found Philip. And Jesus said to him, "Follow Me.

Matt. 16:24
24. Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Mark 8:35
35. "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's shall save it.

Mark 1:20
20. And immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.

John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

2.) A soldier report & submit to his superior or authority—as Christian report & submit to Jesus.

James 4:7
7. Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Luke 22:42
42. saying, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done."

John 5:19
19. Jesus therefore answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Heb. 13:17
17. Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Rom. 13:1
1. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Eph. 5:22-24
22. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

3.) A soldier follow orders—as Christian follow God’s commandments.

John 15:14
14. "You are My friends, if you do what I command you.

John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

2 John 1:6
6. And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Luke 11:28
28. But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it."

Rom. 5:19
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

4.) A soldier is loyal to his country—as Christian is loyal to Jesus/God.
5.)A soldier is loyal to his superior—as Christian is loyal to Jesus/God.

Matt. 6:24
24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

James 1:7-8
7. For let not that man expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
8. being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Luke 9:61-62
61. And another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home."
62. But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Gal. 5:1
1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Ps. 31:23
23. O love the Lord, all you His godly ones!
The Lord preserves the faithful,
And fully recompenses the proud doer.

Matt. 25:21
21. "His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master.'

Matt. 24:44-47
44. "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45. "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46. "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47. "Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Heb. 10:22-23
22. let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

You're not "preaching what the scripture says." You're "preaching what you say the scriptures say."

Prove it to me. Please, to clarify. Kindly enumerate all the things that you think it is my own word.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

For them, the word of God is found more in the heart and in loving relationships than in a book.

That is the real problem here. How can anyone find the word of God without listening and reading His words? They had no choice but to adhere what the Bible is saying rather than men. Do they need someone or leader like Mclaren to tell them about Jesus or they can directly read Jesus’ words?

They do that because they find Christ's teachings being implemented more on the fringes than in the midst of the "church machine." The established church doesn't have a corner on the market of love as taught by Christ.
To seek love is not to "deny Jesus."

Christianity of Jesus is not meant for decoration. Anybody can say that they are not denying Jesus. That is so easy. The application counts a lot.

John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Oh yes, you are right that men seeks love because they are insecure in the first place. So they need God. With this verse, I believe, is to prove that they truly love Jesus.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

This is an exchange of ideas, proving what I have and what you have.

Never once have I argued to "prove" myself right and you wrong. That's your mode of thinking in terms of black or white, true or false binary rules superimposed on an organic, dynamic, relativistic reality. The only thing I argue for is that you allow others to hold different points of views, opinions, and spiritual practices than yourself. We have been defending ourselves from your irrational attacks borne out of intolerance of others.

Take a review with your post about your wordings, same as how you reacted since the start of our discussion.

Here's the pattern. I have been extremely patient with your responses, initially assuming you were just challenged by new ideas. But after so long of deliberate misrepresentations, lies, insults and attacks, calling me "New Age", constantly while I have explicitly rejected that term applied to myself, eventually you'll get a response that calls what you are doing on the floor. And then you act all "calm" and blame them for their reaction to your antics in this thread, telling me to take a deep breath and so on. I know those who do this sort of manipulation, pushing others, and then when they react to them they pass all the blame off to the one who reacted.

The fact remains, you do not respond to the points, you consistently misrepresent and twist my words to make me say things I am not saying, you label me a religion I do not accept for myself, you say I worship the devil, and so on, and then you do not accept others correction when they point it out to you, you slam all other religions as satanic, and then you here cite the forum rules to me as if I am violating them in my response where I said you take the words other and pass them through the grist mill of your logic processes.

I actually have learned a lot about the fundamentalist mode of thinking in this thread, and it has helped me realize the limits it has and the dysfunction inherent in it. I have learned that it is not simply a 'novice' idea about God and spirituality, but a bastion for those who are attracted to conspiracy theory and other forms of paranoia. I used to be in a fundamentalist group, and this discussion has help me see in a much more clear light the nature of what it is, now that I've had some years of distance from it. That is the only reason I have spent this amount of energy here. It's about looking into that world of my own past more directly, to see it for what it was and how poisonous it is to the human soul and the world. I understand clearly why the atheist who leaves such groups extolls how they have been "saved from religion". If anything is darkness masquerading as light, fundamentalism is. "By their fruits you shall know them".

 

[Brickjectivity]

Wow, just wow.

 

[sojourner]

See. Where is the basis? Is it someone told you? by experience? How can you prove that theory (if without validity), to believe as your faith in Jesus Christ??

How can you prove your theories? Is it something someone told you? Because that's all the bible is -- a written message by some person or persons. The only authority the bible carries is that it is the written "sense of the community."

Oh. I see it. So John 3:16 and John 14:6 are counted—as you share Christianity to others?

Of course they're "counted." Except that I don't "share Christianity." I share the love of God.

So, Jesus truth is about love; how about other beliefs like Buddhism, Muslim and Hindus?

Where love is fostered, there God is.

What is the love of God given to people? How God show his love to people?

God's love is shown through compassion, mercy, forbearance, justice, freedom, hospitality, welcome, kindness.

God saves humanity from what?

From forgetting who we are.

The God that you mentioned is the God of what beliefs?

God isn't the God of any particular belief. God is God.

Hmmm. I have here an article about the “Eucharist” in relation with the emerging church. I would like to hear your comment about this.

My comment is that Roger Oakland is a charlatan who understands neither the RCC or the Emergent conversation.

John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

My interpretation to John 3:16 is because of the love of God, He will save people from perishing by sending His only begotten Son Jesus Christ so people will have the hope of eternal life by believing Jesus as the Son of God, Saviour and Lord.

Is the interpretation right or wrong?

It's neither "right" nor "wrong." It's merely simplistic and underdeveloped.

 

[sojourner]

Therefore, the “one” or “oneness” for New Age is composed of multi-religion/beliefs, while the “one” or “oneness" for Jesus’ Christianity is composed of His followers (disciples) and believers only. When we say disciples or followers, they are the one who follow the words of Jesus Christ wholeheartedly. This does not include all other faiths as being one in ecumenism.

1) John saw the church as a "microcosm" for all humanity.
2) So,, people who love wholeheartedly are following what Jesus commanded: that we love each other.

Therefore, your reasoning that to be a disciple is to love—is not the primary command of being a disciple. “Come and Follow Me” is the term that Jesus usually used. We follow first to show your love to Jesus. Jesus never say “Love Me” so you may follow me, that is a weird way of showing your love. The love can be deceiving in one’s heart; he may say he loves, but a superficial love—just only by mouth. Man is not born—to love (human being); it is Christ who first loved us. We respond to His love by following Jesus. I believed If anyone don’t have the heart to follow Jesus, that proves he did not have the heart to love Him.

To love is to follow Jesus, for Jesus is the way of love.

Yes that is true, other beliefs/faith promote love, but Christianity promotes higher than love, that would be dedication/surrendering of one’s life, obedience/loyalty and becoming a follower (disciple). That’s the difference indeed for Christianity which other find it difficult to accept. The key word is to follow.

One follows by loving as Jesus loved.

This is a very nice choice of Scripture, but I don’t’ think this is the answer nearer to my question. The man who cast-out demons in Jesus name showed his faith in Jesus—as a believer. The man may not be in their company (as with the disciples), but applied what the disciples also did by casting out demons.

The man was not "one of them," IOW, was not a disciple. He wasn't a "believer." But yes, he did do what they did, and so was counted as "for" Jesus. It answers your question perfectly. Those who love in the way Jesus loved -- whether they are "believers" or not -- are "for Jesus."

First, are you familiar with the genealogy specified in the book of Matthew? I don’t see anything in relation with that genealogy.

You're confusing "genealogy" with "genetically." Genetically, all human beings are the same.

Second, their teachings is totally different especially their view toward God. Furthermore, their principle are not the same at all.

Doesn't matter. They are still just as human and are, therefore, just as much part of the human family, as are Christians.

The truth that I know is the truth confessed by Christ.

No it's not. Christ had a much better grasp of truth than you do.

I’m confused?? Logically, if a person believed so many things (as many truths)is confusing rather than concentrating in one belief??

You're confused because you're seeing divisions that are relatively unimportant. The divisions are divisions of perspective, not substance.

He said “Come and Follow Me,” that is absolutely personal and internal.

He says that to all humanity -- not just to individuals.

That is an answer to your “Truth is truth.” If the truth of Jesus will wear with different clothing (belief system), that truth will be tainted with the untruth because Jesus claimed He is only the truth. Logical

You're still not getting it.

 

[sojourner]

I think we both know what is faith? When we dine in a restaurant, we eat the food that was served—is an act of faith; when we seat in our chair; walking down the narrow street; traveling and others. All the things that we do is by faith. Now, if we read the Bible—knowing Jesus’ teachings and promises—is also by faith. Not only that, since this is an inspired word of God (if you’ll believe or not), there is power of His word; it can change lives and bring people in His righteousness. Therefore, faith comes from listening/reading the word of God.

So ... to sum up, the book saves. Got it.

I don’t think a God who will save the soul of many is a fragile thing.

God is infinitely fragile, infinitely tender, infinitely vulnerable. Just as God is infinitely strong, infinitely absolute, infinitely transcendent.

They may have love, of course, but that does not mean they following Jesus Christ.

It does, actually. Whenever one loves, one follows Christ.

euaggelion: good news
Original Word: εὐαγγέλιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: euaggelion
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on)
Short Definition: the good news, the gospel
Definition: the good news of the coming of the Messiah, the gospel; the gen. after it expresses sometimes the giver (God), sometimes the subject (the Messiah, etc.), sometimes the human transmitter (an apostle).

If the gospel means the good news, that would mean the hope of salvation that was offered to us--is the gospel. In reference to the Corinthian verses, it was stated the whole scenario of what Jesus Christ did for us, He died, He was buried, and He rose. God’s kingdom had come near has the same agenda, and the detail is what 1 Cor. stated.

Did you also know that, when the emperor published news of a military victory, that bulletin was also called a "gospel?" "Gospel" or the Greek euangelion, is a generic term that means more than the message of 1 Cor. The gospel of Jesus was that the kingdom of God had come near.

If love in this Scripture does not involve believing, submitting, surrendering and obeying, this is a bogus.

Of course love involves those things. But love is the impetus for those things. Those things aren't the impetus for love.

Based on the Scripture, the will of God is to sanctify our lives for Him, by renewing our mind and not conforming to this world. Now, let us see what is this “world,” and what are they.

God is love. God's will is existence and that existence is based in love. God isn't "mind renewal" or "nonconformity." God is love.

We are discussing on the current situation. Sex before marriage. Do we?

What constitutes "marriage," though, in God's eyes? A license from a county clerk? A minister saying a formulary ritual? Two people who are committed to each other? What? And how is that criterion arbitrary or not?

 

[sojourner]

I don’t think so. If you think that there is a compromise for Christ, this is the will of the Father. The old has become new to Christ. We cannot question Christ Jesus about what He is doing. Same with Paul, he continue to proclaim and propagate the good news to many. God chose him for Christ’s ministry.

God also chose McLaren.

The word of God was laid down to us; men who will compromise with the word of God can be easily trace because of the transparency of Scripture.

The "word of God" was given to us by biased people in particular circumstances.

It is not my church, it is Christ’s church.

It is your church, because it's your take on the texts. Whether you like it or not.

Prove it to me. Please, to clarify. Kindly enumerate all the things that you think it is my own words.

Everything you're saying is your take on the texts. Any time you use a text to prove a point, any time you say, "What that means is...", you're giving your take.

 

[sojourner]

That is the real problem here. How can anyone find the word of God without listening and reading His words?

yeah, that's the real problem here, all right. The bible isn't "God's words." It's the words of people, from a biased and particular stance and set of circumstances.

Do they need someone or leader like Mclaren to tell them about Jesus or they can directly read Jesus’ words?

They aren't directly reading Jesus' words. They're having a Mark, a Luke, a Matthew, a John tell them about Jesus. Or a Pope Francis, or a McLaren, or a Tickle, or a Pagitt.

Christianity of Jesus is not meant for decoration.

Love is its own adornment.

Oh yes, you are right that men seeks love because they are insecure in the first place.

People seek love because love is our natural state. Love doesn't "fill a hole created by fear." Love casts out fear -- it doesn't replace fear. People fear because they've forgotten to love, and fear is the absence of love.

 

[sojourner]

And then you act all "calm" and blame them for their reaction to your antics in this thread, telling me to take a deep breath and so on. I know those who do this sort of manipulation, pushing others, and then when they react to them they pass all the blame off to the one who reacted.

It's called ... "bullying."

 

[Windwalker]

I just came across this and I think it's a great example of what can happen when some people read the Bible. Not only do they have demon-casting out services, but raising the dead services. At least it's "scriptural". Oh my.....

 

[InChrist]

I think the right word is "transformed". That's a different meaning than conformity. Transformation changes your being into something, where you become that, you are that. Very different than "looking like" something.

Although you may think the right word is transformed, the actual word used in the scriptures is... conformed to the image of His Son Romans 8:29

And rightly so! Only humans interpret. Not books. You did not refute any points I raised as to why it is impossible for the Bible to "interpret itself". Care to give it a try? Ignoring those very valid points is not a response.

Below is an excerpt and link to an article which helps with understanding biblical interpretation. I have highlighted in bold a point which I think is very important.

“When it comes to making claims about what the Bible means, sometimes we hear comments from Christians or non-Christians like the following: “Well, that’s just your interpretation.”

So let’s just start with the most basic question. What does a text mean? The answer to this question is that a text means what the author intended it to mean. If there is only one thing you learn from this lesson this is it. For a simple example, if you wrote a letter with some statements in it that are a little ambiguous, then what does the letter mean? Does it mean what you intended it to mean or how the readers interpret it? Of course it means what you intended it to mean. The true meaning of a text resides in the authorial intent of the text. This leads us to the first primary and fundamental principle of interpreting the Bible.

General Principles of Biblical Interpretation
Principle 1: Interpretation must be based on the author’s intention of meaning and not the reader. “
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-6-principles-biblical-interpretation

So, it "interpreted itself" for you, but apparently not for Martin Luther, the Bible failed to interpret itself properly? How logical is this, really?

I addressed this issue in an earlier post.

And everything I am saying is supported by scripture too. I just read it differently than you do. You just won't admit you are interpreting it. Why?

Because you have already said you do not believe the scriptures are the literal, infallible revealed word of God. Therefore you do not look for the Author's intended meaning, but use them only to superimpose meanings upon them in support of your own brand of spirituality. I acknowledge the scriptures as God’s Word and therefore read them with the desire to know God’s intended meaning and have my spiritual views and life inspired, corrected and changed to be in line with His expressed communication and will.

Haven't we covered this already, that the Bible does not teach techniques of prayer, in its many, many forms and practices? It's not an instruction manual of "how to pray", and I'm quite positive I could analyze your practices and not find them spelled out in detail either. Why be so selective then in saying it doesn't specify exact practices that are in contemplative prayer? That's not very honest. But my real point is to ask this question which I have countless times. Let's come from the other direction, which would should. How does contemplative prayer violate what is taught in the Bible? How does it produce results that violate Jesus' teachings? It bears good fruit. How can that be evil? "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". Please explain how you then can claim it does?

Contemplative prayer violates the Bible because it is based in occult and metaphysical practices with the focus on having an esoteric, mystical experience with God which is purely subjective , rather than comprehensible communication with God as the scriptures instruct (Phil. 4:6; Cor. 14:15; Matt. 6:9-13;John 16;23-24; Is.1:18)

It violates the teachings of Jesus and does not produce good fruit because it promotes the idea that salvation is gained by many paths rather than through the Savior Jesus Christ alone, contradicting Christ Himself who stated that salvation comes only through Him (John 14:6). If one does not come to God through Jesus Christ then there is no Holy Spirit received or indwelling, no fruits of the Spirit, or any good fruit.

It is evil because Satan’s greatest desire is to see as many people as possible destroyed and prevented from spending an eternity of joyful relationship with their loving Creator and mysticism is a tool he uses to turn people to their experiential spirituality and away from the Living God and His words of life (John 6:68)

Of course, you are the Judge. How is that humility?

I am not the Judge, but I do believe God is the Judge and His word is the measuring standard of truth and error. We are called to test all things by the scriptures.

Well, I've covered all this many times. I do prefer the Truth of God. I just understand that in a different light than you do. Your views are not the judge of that Truth. And you err greatly believing they are.

I am glad you desire and prefer the truth of God. I think if you or anyone is sincere in that then I trust God to be faithful in leading and revealing His truth to all who are seeking.

 

[sojourner]

I just came across this and I think it's a great example of what can happen when some people read the Bible. Not only do they have demon-casting out services, but raising the dead services. At least it's "scriptural". Oh my.....

There's a marked difference -- both biblically and scientifically -- between "resuscitation" and "resurrection." Resuscitation is a physical occurrence with measurable, quantifiable parameters and outcomes. Resurrection is a theological concept that, so far as is known, has no quantifiable, measurable, physical manifestations. This guy's a clown.