What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Yoshua]

To reiterate:
"people who love wholeheartedly are following what Jesus commanded: that we love each other."

Yes, I know, but why reading and adhering with the Scriptures becomes a hindrance by not complying the command of Jesus that we should keep and abide in His words? What is the main reason for this?

It is stated that this is all about love for Jesus.
John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.

The question is: What are Jesus' commandments? 1) Love God. 2) Love neighbor as self.

This is how the Scripture works from seeing the light of truth. Obedience is the key. This is the example on how I’m not the one who saying it, but the Scripture. Not my own words, we just duplicate and repeat God’s word.
John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.

John 14:21
21. "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."

His word never change, and will not pass away. Are those statement is true to you or not?By Yoshua

That is a good comparison. Christ is dealing with the Sadducees here. Jesus stated the shema, He summarized the demands of the Mosaic law; their responsibility toward God as loving the Lord your God and responsibility to man as loving thy neighbor. Would you think that John 14:21-23 should not be followed, and it is exempted to the command of Christ from abiding and keeping His words?

I believed that this should be applied, because as you have said that we must love God, and it is your initial concept. Therefore, John 14:21-23 is the answer for the question: How I will love God? obviously the answer will be keeping His words, because it is stated that the Father (and Jesus) will love, and come to those who keep His word. (v.23)

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Both Scriptures are about the love of God. There is no doubt about it.

Mark 12:29-33
29. Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30. `And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31. "And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.''
32. So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
33. "And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.''

That genetic sameness is the lens of the truth. There are no appreciable differences, in reality, between Christians and Buddhists. It's only a difference of perspective -- not substance. It's like a big family: One child has a bedroom that's pained blue. Another has a bedroom that's pained yellow. A third has a bedroom that's decorated in clowns. A fourth has a bedroom that's decorated in cats. a fifth sleeps on the couch in the den. But they're All. One. Family. under one roof -- or, heck! -- even under several roofs, depending on whether they're aunts, grandparents, or sisters-in-law.

We don't need Wikipedia to tell us differences of perspective, when what we're dealing with is a question of substance.

Take a look with the comparison with their beliefs. If you think that the substance are not yet included in my postings, then kindly explain the “substance” for the sake—of the lens of truth?

Buddhism
Buddhism is a philosophy of life preached by Gautama Buddha ("Buddha" means "enlightened one"), who lived and taught in northern India in the 6th Century B.C. The Buddha was not a god and the philosophy of Buddhism does not entail any theistic world-view until after it was introduced into China. Renowned Chinese gods in Buddhism like Guanyin (Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara) and Milefo (Maitreya) were actually humans who came to China to preach.

Buddhism stresses the teaching of no self (Anatta). There is a famous saying, 'where can dust be collected if there is nothing to start out with.' Thus attachment to the idea of substantial and enduring self is only an illusion ('like the reflections of moon in the water and flowers in a mirror'), which can only lead to suffering.

Therefore, suffering is a consequence of one's volitional actions. This is consistent with the Buddhist doctrine of causes and effects. ('If one sows melon seeds, one harvests melon; and if one sows beans, one reaps beans'). One is thus responsible for all the consequences of his own psychological states and volitional actions (karma). These good or bad actions or karma can be carried from one life to the other. Your well-being in this life is affected by your karma in your previous lives, and your karma in this life dictates your well-being in your future lives. The Chinese believe that if you are a good person, you may become a good person in your next life. However, if you are a bad person in this life, you may end up reincarnating into an animal or even an insect.

Christianity
Christian faith is the relationship with God, the Creator of all things. A person is accepted by God, not because of his deeds but because of who he is, a chosen child of God. (This concept is very similar to the fact you are a member of your earthly family regardless what you have done. Without this relationship, you are like a run-away child). Although we are all sinners, God still loves us and sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins on the cross. (God actually approached us first, like a parent looking for a run-away child! For all other religions, man seeks god instead!) To establish this relationship with God, one must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, Who died for our sins and rose again. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we can then turn away from sin.

Yes you did. To wit:
"The truth that I know is the truth confessed by Christ.By Yoshua"
This constitutes your having the truth, since you insist that Jesus said "I am the truth..."

Yes, I know that, and I did not say that I have the truth.By Yoshua

Oh! You misinterpreted what is the truth of Jesus Christ.

You have a wrong judgment here. If I say "The truth that I know is the truth confessed by Christ,” it means that I'm saying "I am the truth" also, I did not say “The truth that I know is I am the truth.” That is totally different in connotations and meaning.

When I say “I have the truth,” that would mean it is not me who is the truth, but I know and have the truth because Jesus is the truth. I’m His follower so I have the right to say that I have the truth, it is faith. I’m not taking the position of Jesus—to claim as I am the truth. That is blasphemy. I’m a follower of Jesus Christ because we are living in the truth that was confessed by Jesus Christ.

Allow me to cite some of your statement here to clarify the whole thing :

Yeah, but "my place" isn't the only place. That's what I'm getting at -- my truth is not the truth. Your truth is not the truth.

No, faith isn't a fractional proposition (and I think you know that). Truth may be partial. No one has the whole truth. We all have partial truth. by Sojourner

You are saying that nobody has the whole truth and maybe partial. This conclude that the truth you are classifying is unstable truth, and not the real truth.

Is God an Absolute Truth?by Yoshua

No. God is Truth, Itself -- not "a" truth .by Sojourner


It is because you don’t believe Jesus is the truth, and you have your own truth. By Yoshua
Uh, don't go there. Don't tell me "what I believe." I know what I believe.
Everyone has her/his own truth. To claim that one has Absolute Truth is to delude oneself.By Sojourner

Here, you say that everyone has its own truth. I just wonder why you misinterpreted that I’m having the truth. It sounds there is a contradiction with your statement.

Yes, but the deeper reality is that, regardless of differences of perspective, we are all one human family under God.

Yes, I believe that we are all one human family, it is because we are human with the same features—as having a hair, head, nose, two arms and legs—created in God’s image. When it comes to the family of Jesus Christ or God’s family for Christianity/spirituality, the human family(created in God’s image) has been given a free-will to choose his path of spiritual righteousness.

Then, there comes a lot of beliefs or religions. Man seeks God. You believe that there is an absolute truth and that is God. Therefore, how would you determine the God’s (who created human as his image) will for human? What belief system that He want for His creation—like us?

Well, this is the true reality. One question that I want to ask as the first question—is this one: Does anyone knows who created the heaven and earth, and humans aside from a God that was stated in the Holy Scriptures?

Divinity is Divinity.

May I request to go deeper and dig deeper to know what divinity—that you are pertaining? It should be micro and not macro.

Doesn't matter. You're saying that "reading words saves us."

I got your point. The book does not saved us. It is the word of God that transcends and bring us our faith in Him. Faith saves. His word is just printed in a book as of this time. It is not the book itself, it can be in our cellphones, radios, multi-media, and other technology that will come. If I can memorize all the Scripture without having a book, then it is not the book—it is the word of God after all. The important thing is His word cannot be change nor pass away. I believed this is why Jesus said this statement: Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. By Yoshua

No. If reading the word saves us, Wow! Satanist, anti-christ beliefs and criminals can be saved. Now, how can you reconcile and explain between the side of logic and God’s righteousness?

If reading the word saves us, I can tell anybody who read the Scripture can be saved. This is not making sense.

A gospel -- not the gospel.

Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, resurrection and ascension is a gospel.

To reiterate:
"love is the impetus for those things. Those things aren't the impetus for love."

Absolutely by the Holy Spirit indwelling, for we can be able to work out that love with believing, submitting, surrendering and obeying.By Yoshua

Why? do you think that love does not include following and obeying? If your wife loves you, will she believe, trust, obey and follow you?

Love is what effects that transformation. When one loves, one does deny oneself in favor of the other.

Then how do you deny oneself and carry your own cross?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I had promised myself to no longer reply to your posts for the reasons before stated, but I do here for the sake of others reading this.

The fruit of the Spirit which in Paul's brief list include, "Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control," does not come by your list that you created from your own ideas. If it did, the Pharisees of the Bible would have not be rebuked by Jesus as they did all these to a T. Something was missing. And that something is spelled out by Paul in the 5th chapter of Galatians where he lists these fruits. Where do they come from, according to Paul?

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. It is not in being a Christian versus a Buddhist. It is not in being a Jew versus a Gentile (circumcision nor uncircumcision), that divides the sheep from the goats. It is not in following the letter of the law (your commandment number 1 listed above), as Paul says in this chapter that, "I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." This means if you are made righteous, if you're religion is true because you are "submitting yourself to God's word", in the sense you mean, this is "obey the whole law", which Pauls says is not the path. You say it is, contrary to Paul's teaching here. All your list is swept off the table in Paul's statement, "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Hi Windwalker,

I chose to use Galatians as my answer to your message so there will be a connection and transparency in understanding Paul’s message.

Gal. 2:20
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Paul is telling us the following :
1. He was crucified with Christ.
2. Christ lives with him.
3. He is living by faith.
4. He has faith in Jesus Christ (Son of God).
5. Jesus Christ loved him.
6. Jesus Christ gave Himself to Paul (died for us).

With this, we can see how Paul was committed and dedicated his life to Jesus Christ—by living in faith with Jesus Christ; it is Jesus Christ and not any other spirit/s, or experience/feeling.

Gal. 1:6-12
6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11. But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul remind (strictly) the Galatians about the perversion of the gospel; that the “other gospel” is not to pleased man, and that gospel should not be a man-made. This is a strict adherence to the gospel of Christ. The gospel was preached to the Jews and Gentiles. Paul said the following statement in the book of Romans :

Rom. 1:16-17
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith.''

If we look at the word “believe,” that would mean pisteuó, (Gk) to believe, entrust, this is entrusting, and not just by believing into something without trust. Thus, by believing, God’s righteousness is revealed from faith—as we should live by faith, and not by works.

In relation to your comment about Buddhism vs Christianity, we can now fully understand why Christianity differ with Buddhism. Therefore, your “faith expressing itself through love” concept is applicable by respecting their beliefs, and loving them. But when in comes to spirituality, the Scriptures that was stated here should be followed. People who will come to Christ should live with Christ by faith as the expression of his love to God. Jesus Christ and Paul never stated anything about the adherence of different religious faith, instead they reminded us to keep watch and beware of the (false) teachings that is not in accordance with the gospel and His word. By faith, Jesus told us to deny ourselves and carry our own cross and follow Him (not other faiths).

Your insistence on self-identification as Christian by conversion to the Christian religion itself, runs contrary to Paul's message. Being Jew versus Gentile, Christian versus Buddhist or Hindu, or Muslim, or any other system of faith, avails nothing if you do not have love, for "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Why? Because "In Christ" all are One. Paul says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value." "In Christ" dissolves all these boundaries set up by the those who do what you are doing in your created list of "acceptable criteria". This is why these religious tenanent are a substitute for faith. It excludes, rather than includes. "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value." Your list has "no value".

Gal. 3:6-8
6. just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.''
7. Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed

If we remember how Abraham was tested his faith to God, we can see thoroughly what is to follow God. Abraham obeyed, submit and commit his life and actions despite of the order of God to slay his son. How could we eradicate this example in replacement with the concept of "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” This concept fails, and do not adhere to the concept of how faith manifested through our action, and how faith is measured through our action.

Therefore, this could be summarized with these statements contrary with God’s standard of spirituality :
1. Show me your love without commitment
2. Show me your love without obedience
3. Show me your love without submission
4. Show me your love without believing

What is that kind of love? If God showed His love toward us by sending His Son Jesus Christ as propitiation for our sins, how could we not give those (commitment, obedience, submission and believing) as the product of loving God?

Paul says we should reject those who seek to impose a list of things to do religiously that we are to "obey" in order to be fulfilling the law. The law is fulfilled in love. We obey love, which means we follow the heart. "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love. I do not see that word listed in your 4 points of salvation listed above. A deeply glaring omission. Jesus message was the path of love. It should have been number 1 on your list, but it is absent in all of them. Why is it missing? I hear instead words like submit, obey, commit. I don't hear love anywhere in these. Yet that is the first commandment of Jesus, "Love".

Here's my list (taken from Jesus' list he came up with)

1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

For in these two commandments, the entire law of God is fulfilled.

Contrast Jesus' list with yours below:

1. Submitting to God's word.
2. Obedience to God's word.
3. Committing himself to God.
4. Believe in God's word.

I'll stick with Jesus' list instead. It speaks to my heart and fulfills the law. Yours is all about submission to the law to find salvation. Jesus' is about finding and following love, and through love which flows from within, the law which is outside is fulfilled.

Based on my postings here, I did not stop mentioning about discipleship and the supporting verse of John 3:16. It is a misconception from your end that I missed to mention about love. As you can see our conversation with Mr. Sojourner, I did not stop, correct, refute and discard his answers about the love of God because I firmly believe that the love of God is the reason why Jesus was sent—to save us from sin and give us the hope of eternal life. I already observed that those (three) list (submitting, obedience, and committing) were hindered to apply for the contemplative/mystical practitioner. This is one of the reason why I kept repeating those application as the product of love in following Christ. It is said that they followed the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit), but hesitant to dwell and follow with the Scripture—as the authority for spiritual path of righteousness.

In reference to the mentioned Scriptures about the first commandment, Christ is dealing with the Sadducees here. Jesus stated the shema, He summarized the demands of the Mosaic law; their responsibility toward God as loving the Lord your God and responsibility to man as loving thy neighbor.

Mark 12:29-33
29. Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30. `And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31. "And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.''
32. So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.

As you quoted the book of Galatians for the fruit of the Spirit and Mark 12:30-31, should I trash and discard the command of Jesus Christ to follow, obey and keep His words?
Should I do this for the sake of leaning of our desired faith? or stick with Jesus’ list—as you mentioned? If the decision is to stick with Jesus’ list, should I ignore the other Scripture in the book of Galatians, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

If I will do this practice from understanding the Scriptures, I could be accuse as being biased from selecting my desired Scriptures, thus, applying it as Scripture proof-texting. This will lead to misinterpretation and contradiction with the Scriptures.

To prove that I‘ll be fair and transparent in my defense, here are some of supporting Scripture that I’ve already posted before:

John 1:43
43. The next day He purposed to go forth into Galilee, and He found Philip. And Jesus said to him, "Follow Me.

Matt. 16:24
24. Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

James 4:7
7. Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Luke 22:42
42. saying, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done."

John 5:19
19. Jesus therefore answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Heb. 13:17
17. Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

John 14:15
15. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.

John 14:21
21. "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."

Gal. 5:1
1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Ps. 31:23
23. O love the Lord, all you His godly ones!
The Lord preserves the faithful,
And fully recompenses the proud doer.

Matt. 25:21
21. "His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master.'

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

It is wholly impossible to check the authenticity of a call of another through one's own, narrow interpretation of the bible.

Therefore, let me know where is that narrowness of my interpretation. I’m open to start hearing your voice of your wideness interpretation.

No. It's not. to wit:
Matt. 8:11; Matt. 12:50; Matt. 18:14; Mark 11:17; Luke 3:6; Luke 15:4; Luke 15:8; Luke 19:10; John 1:9; John 3:17; John 10:16; John 12:32; John 15:16; Rom 5:18; Rom 8:38-39; 1 Cor 13:4-8; 1 Cor 15:22; Eph 1:9-10; Phil 2:10-11; Col 1:19-20; 1 Tim 2:3-4; 1 Tim 4:9-10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet 2:9; Rev 5:13. Among others.

Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell]."
--Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

Universalism is an unbiblical and anti-Christian teaching that everyone will be saved. This is contrary and contradicted with the scripture.by Yoshua

Matt12:50
50. "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.''

Is the will of the Father is the same will of Jesus Christ? Of course, it is. Therefore, why discard and let the Scripture speak itself? There should no covering of Scriptures; it should be laid open for transparency.

Matt. 25:46
46. "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
Why there is everlasting punishment if all will be saved? How about Judas? Is he saved?


John 3:36
36. "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
Should Jesus uttered “he who does not believe the Son shall not see life” if He knows everyone will be saved?

Matt. 7:21
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Should Jesus should uttered this statement if He is assured that everyone will be saved?

John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Why quote only John 3:17, and not include John 3:16 to see the truth? We don’t want to live in a lie, but the truth. I believed we (both) don’t like our kids to tell us the half-truth, but the whole truth. Isn’t it?

It is true that God desires to save us. No doubt about it, it is stated in the Scriptures. The truth is : Did people desire to be saved? Did people desire to follow Christ? Did people desire to remain in His word? Did people desire to walk the path of righteousness? Did people desire to obey Jesus? Did people desire to submit to Jesus? Did people desire to commit his life to Jesus?

If all people will be saved, God should not send His Son Jesus Christ to saved us from our sin. Logical. Universalism contradicted and failed to prove the free-will of man. I believed that man should not have the free-will if all will be saved.

It's the words of people.

Can we say that the statement of Jesus that Mk. 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away” and at John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.” is not the word of Jesus/God?? Is it a lie or people’s words??By Yoshua

How come it becomes people’s word? Can you prove it?

What I'm saying is that there's no absolute proof that any of this constitutes "the words of Jesus." We can speculate. We can extrapolate some sort of "odds are that...", but we can't say with any certainty. All we have is the witness of people who Did. Not. Know. Jesus. Personally.

There is the Bible, the disciples who knows Jesus personally. Now, in balance to prove Jesus exists, we have Josephus, the historian. I believed Jesus say that the Holy Spirit will testify the truth, and that indwelling brings us to understand the truth with certainty.

Because a religion fosters and nurtures that love (or, at least, it should). This is like asking, "If being well is our natural state, why should we seek out preventive medicine?

The truth is we are being well, because we are human and prone to be affected by sickness. We cannot hide our true nature. But for spirituality, I don’t see people growing up with love to other people. Kindly take a look with the kids, do they say to his mom and dad, “you know, I love my classmates, my teacher and strangers.” Did God designed us that way, or we are designed having a sinful nature which love is not our innate being?

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Additionally, Historical and Scientific Accuracy of the Bible proves that the Scriptures is authentic, true and authority.

"Historical and scientific accuracy of the bible" is laughable.

How come you’re not consistent with what you’ve said that you agree with the Bible Scholars and historian about the divinely inspired—Bible?
If the Bible is divinely inspired, how come that it is wrong to read the Bible?

I never said that "it's wrong to read the bible." I have said that the bible isn't nearly the authority that you say it is.

Ok. Both of them have some concept of divinity, that is a very generalized conclusion. Why not go deeper to see clearly where is that concept going? We believed that Hindus had many Gods, then how you would reconcile with the book of Isaiah, as saying there is no other God beside me, and there is only one God. Therefore, this can be the start of seeking what is the truth.

OK, but the bible, itself,also acknowledges the existence of more than one god in several places. Therefore, the bible is inconsistent in that regard. It is that generalized truth of the acceptance of Deity that's most important. Details don't matter so much.

Then, why Jesus stated that we carry our own cross and follow Him?

Because we're all supposed to show the same depth of love that causes us to give up everything for its sake.

Ok then, thanks. What is lacking in my statement as your substance?

The substance of the meaning of "sin" and "follow."

Ok. I believe that He is God , and there is a God. Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism plus other religions? Do you have a research for this concept?

God is God. Our limited perspective of God causes us to define the whole of God by our own , limited perspective. God is bigger than any one perspective.

What is lacking in my statement as underdeveloped? How can you make it developed?

Nothing in your statement is "lacking." You just need more statements. You're holding up one tiny piece of a quilt and calling it a "quilt." You simply need all the pieces in order to have a quilt.

 

[sojourner]

but why reading and adhering with the Scriptures becomes a hindrance by not complying the command of Jesus that we should keep and abide in His words? What is the main reason for this?

Because people read the bible and think they've "followed Jesus," yet, they forget to go out and love others. People think that "reading the bible" supplants, or is more important, than loving others. They discount the love that non-Christians display. But love is love, and to love is to follow Jesus.

I believed that this should be applied, because as you have said that we must love God, and it is your initial concept. Therefore, John 14:21-23 is the answer for the question: How I will love God? obviously the answer will be keeping His words, because it is stated that the Father (and Jesus) will love, and come to those who keep His word.

God's word all boils down to love. Period. If you love, you are keeping God's word.

Take a look with the comparison with their beliefs. If you think that the substance are not yet included in my postings, then kindly explain the “substance” for the sake—of the lens of truth?

It's still just a difference of perspective. God is still God, whether God is seen as external or internal, whether God is served through a philosophy of "no self," or a philosophy of "denying oneself."

When I say “I have the truth,” that would mean it is not me who is the truth, but I know and have the truth because Jesus is the truth. I’m His follower so I have the right to say that I have the truth, it is faith. I’m not taking the position of Jesus—to claim as I am the truth. That is blasphemy. I’m a follower of Jesus Christ because we are living in the truth that was confessed by Jesus Christ.

I understand that. What I'm saying is that the basis of your faith is your truth about what constitutes the truth of Jesus. I, on the other hand, have a different truth about what constitutes the truth of Jesus.

You are saying that nobody has the whole truth and maybe partial. This conclude that the truth you are classifying is unstable truth, and not the real truth.

No, "partial" doesn't equal "unstable" or "Not real." If I have a piece of pie, it's just as stable and real as all the other pieces -- and it is representative of the pie from which it is taken. If that piece is joined with all the other pieces, then the pie is whole. That's a good metaphor for how I see truth. In your concept, however (using the same metaphor), you have a piece of pie; you insist that your piece is not only the real piece (and all other pieces are fake), but that it is, in fact, the whole pie, itself, because it's the piece Jesus has selected for you. In your metaphor, no whole pie can truthfully exist, because one piece does not constitute a whole pie, and you've discounted all other pieces. In your view, truth is not really "the whole truth," because you've discounted large chunks of it.

Here, you say that everyone has its own truth. I just wonder why you misinterpreted that I’m having the truth. It sounds there is a contradiction with your statement.

You're the one insisting that only Jesus is the truth, and that, since you follow Jesus, you, also, have that truth. What is "the truth" isn't Jesus-the-man, or even Jesus-the-avatar. What is the truth is what Jesus taught, and what Jesus taught is love. Therefore, while it is true that Jesus taught love, represents love, and is all about love, it is also true that love is represented in other religions and by other avatars.

Then, there comes a lot of beliefs or religions. Man seeks God. You believe that there is an absolute truth and that is God. Therefore, how would you determine the God’s (who created human as his image) will for human? What belief system that He want for His creation—like us?

God doesn't care about "belief systems." God cares about love relationships.

Well, this is the true reality. One question that I want to ask as the first question—is this one: Does anyone knows who created the heaven and earth, and humans aside from a God that was stated in the Holy Scriptures?

If I understand your question correctly, "God" is an avatar for "creative principle." Other religions also have a concept of that principle, just as the Judeo-Christians have.

May I request to go deeper and dig deeper to know what divinity—that you are pertaining? It should be micro and not macro.

You've got it backward. It should be macro and not micro. Theology is about broad concepts of divinity.

Faith saves.

No it doesn't. God saves.

Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, resurrection and ascension is a gospel.

But not the gospel, as you've posited before.

Why? do you think that love does not include following and obeying?

Love does include those things, but those things don't constitute love. They are a result of love, and not the cause of love.

Then how do you deny oneself and carry your own cross?

By displaying self-sacrificial love -- as Jesus did.

 

[sojourner]

I’m open to start hearing your voice of your wideness interpretation.

You've not been so thus far. I have no reason to think that that's changed.

The truth is : Did people desire to be saved? Did people desire to follow Christ? Did people desire to remain in His word? Did people desire to walk the path of righteousness? Did people desire to obey Jesus? Did people desire to submit to Jesus? Did people desire to commit his life to Jesus?

Of course. Otherwise, there would be no church.

If all people will be saved, God should not send His Son Jesus Christ to saved us from our sin. Logical. Universalism contradicted and failed to prove the free-will of man. I believed that man should not have the free-will if all will be saved.

Not true. We needed a tangible example of love to aspire to. We needed someone to show us our true nature. Jesus is that example and that picture. When faced with the ultimate reality of unremitting love, no one will be long be able to resist that reality. People will want that reality.

How come it becomes people’s word? Can you prove it?

Yes. People wrote the bible. It is the words of people, that have had Godly authority imposed upon them.

There is the Bible, the disciples who knows Jesus personally.

None of the people who knew Jesus personally wrote the bible.

Now, in balance to prove Jesus exists, we have Josephus, the historian.

Josephus' citation of Jesus is broad and biased. All it "proves" is that a man named Jesus existed.

I believed Jesus say that the Holy Spirit will testify the truth, and that indwelling brings us to understand the truth with certainty.

Operative term: "you believe." Not "you know." Not "everyone knows." Your belief does not constitute proof or reality.

I don’t see people growing up with love to other people.

Of course not. Peoples' perspectives are covered with a mask of sin -- of a lie about who they really are. It causes them to act without love. It causes them to act outside their true nature.

Did God designed us that way, or we are designed having a sinful nature which love is not our innate being?

God designed us as the imago dei -- the image of God, who is ... love.

 

[InChrist]

That's sounds like what we're saying of what we do through contemplative practice. In fact, I know it is.


Based on what you've said before the Word of God is the Bible. So without the Bible, it is not possible to hear the Holy Spirit in order to yield to it? Is the Bible how you hear the Holy Spirit? Is it your understanding that this means you read something, it sparks something in you and you have a new insight or idea, but outside the Bible God is mute to you?

Thank you, I appreciate the brief post and questions.

I think the difference I see is that the scriptures show in every case that it is all divine grace, all God who initiates the initial and on-going spiritual work in a believer’s life as they seek and yield to Him, while in contemplative practice it is the person is who is attempting to initiate spiritual encounters/experiences. It is this point of difference which I believe the scriptures indicate makes one’s approach to God either legitimate or illegitimate and which separates biblical Christianity from occult mystery religions.
In other words, spirituality based upon reaction to revelation is different than spirituality brought about by effort through the practices and disciplines of mysticism. The former is initiated by God, and based upon faith, while the latter is initiated by man, and based upon works.

I don’t think God is mute by any means, yet, I believe He has chosen to speak primarily through His written word, the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17; 1Timothy3:16-17; John 14:23; Matt, 13:24:24:35; Col. 3:16. I believe the Spirit may speak, lead, convict through one’s thoughts, life events, or others, yet all things are to be tested (1 Thess. 5:21; 1 John 4) in light of the scriptures as the final authority to determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit or another spirit. So the more one knows the scriptures the easier it becomes to recognize God’s voice discerning the source and truth from error because the Spirit of God will never contradict the Word.

 

[InChrist]

Therefore, whoever practices such love is not "sin sin" -- is not separate from God.

When you say 'love" what do you mean?

..Whoever they are. "Come to me all who travail..."

Whoever they are must...come to Jesus to find rest.

God's truth is the truth of love.

Or God's love is the love of truth.

Living and walking in love as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God (Eph) is that gospel message. Therefore, all who love do act in the faith of Jesus.

According to the scriptures and the announcement of the angel the gospel is that Jesus the Savior came to earth, who is Christ the Lord.

.Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2;10-11

And faith in Him and His love which saves...
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,. Romans 5:1
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Gal.3:22

 

[Orbit]

I think if I go away and come back in five years this thread will still be going.

 

[Windwalker]

Thank you, I appreciate the brief post and questions.

Even though every point you continue to raise was addressed in detail and with support in my tomes of posts, it probably failed due to their density so I'll try the soundbite approach even though it will take longer and yield less information. I've always operated off the impression that discussions included well-considered content. I'll try this approach instead.

I think the difference I see is that the scriptures show in every case that it is all divine grace, all God who initiates the initial and on-going spiritual work in a believer’s life as they seek and yield to Him, while in contemplative practice it is the person is who is attempting to initiate spiritual encounters/experiences.

What makes you believe that the mystical approach is "self-initiated" and not a response of the person to the direct calling of God upon his heart? Why do you assume that someone who devote their lives, their whole heart, mind, soul, body, and strength in pursuit of the knowledge of God if that was not a considerable call upon their hearts to come unto God? You think someone would spend hours of each day in silent prayer and meditation to find God, to move beyond themselves, because it is initiated in their ego? That the whole thing is ego-driven and ego-puffing? How? How do you justify this belief of yours? Did you do this yourself, and assume that's what everyone else does? Please answer this.

In other words, spirituality based upon reaction to revelation is different than spirituality brought about by effort through the practices and disciplines of mysticism. The former is initiated by God, and based upon faith, while the latter is initiated by man, and based upon works.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as nothing I am practicing is based upon works. It is 100% based on Grace. I cannot produce or manufacture God. God is God. All I do, is work to discipline the flesh to get out of the way and allow Grace to do its work. The real question is, why do you not accept what I am saying? That's the real discussion question.

I don’t think God is mute by any means, yet, I believe He has chosen to speak primarily through His written word,

That then is your belief, reflective of your own experience. I can quote scriptures to support my point of view as well. It is safe to say from your response that you do not hear God much if at all unless you read it in a book. The silent God, rather the mute God who is not seen in manifest in every blade of grass, save for the page on a book you see he has restricted his Spirit to in order to speak to the hearts of man. This here, is the sharp divide between our awarenesses and experiences of the Divine.

I believe the Spirit may speak, lead, convict through one’s thoughts, life events, or others, yet all things are to be tested (1 Thess. 5:21; 1 John 4) in light of the scriptures as the final authority to determine whether something is from the Holy Spirit or another spirit.

If the mind is unenlightened by Spirit, then how will one use a book they read with their unenlightened mind help to discern what is truth? It sounds to me as if Spirit operates somewhere else, prior to one picking up a book in order to judge what is spiritual truth or not.

So the more one knows the scriptures the easier it becomes to recognize God’s voice discerning the source and truth from error because the Spirit of God will never contradict the Word.

No, this is coming from your mind and your ideas and your beliefs and your preconceptions of what you think the Bible says. This is in fact, what is of your own efforts. You are trying to penetrate the things of God by reasoning it out coming from your own desire, not what comes through in fact yielding to Spirit, which is the letting go of all these things you are bringing to the table of judgement. You are in fact, in error in what you say of the mystical experience, and that has been proven. Yet you do not hear.

P.S. Rats. I just couldn't do it. I can't just post thoughts without supporting them which leads to long posts. I guess it's just a style thing.

 

[Windwalker]

I think if I go away and come back in five years this thread will still be going.

I think it's a tactic of fundamentalists like politicians that believe if they just keep repeating the lie enough it becomes truth. Every time someone offers a correction, just reply repeating the exact same misinformation, rather than entering into dialog, and eventually the other person will give up on you and you win. It's a pattern I've observed over the years.

 

[sojourner]

I think if I go away and come back in five years this thread will still be going.

You could contemplate that idea. But then you'd be opening yourself up to demons...

 

[sojourner]

When you say 'love" what do you mean?

Asked and answered. Selfless, unconditional, agape love. Love that shows compassion, mercy, forbearance, kindness, hospitality.

Whoever they are must...come to Jesus to find rest.

They who love do come to Jesus.

Or God's love is the love of truth.

God's love is more than just love of truth.

According to the scriptures and the announcement of the angel the gospel is that Jesus the Savior came to earth, who is Christ the Lord.

According to Jesus, it's that God's kingdom has come near.

 

[Desert Snake]

contemplation=/=yoga

You could contemplate that idea. But then you'd be opening yourself up to demons...

 

[sojourner]

contemplation=/=yoga

According to fundamentalists: "Yah-huh!"

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think if I go away and come back in five years this thread will still be going.

No kidding! I keep it on my watch list, and its always getting longer.

 

[Windwalker]

No kidding! I keep it on my watch list, and its always getting longer.

I have to admit I ready to leave it behind at this point. But it has been fruitful for me. A lot of personal insights have emerged through it resolving some old mistaken ideas I had about fundamentalism in the past, certain idealistic views based upon my own anomalous participation within it which led to me affording it more credit than was warranted. It's hard to explain how this has helped me personally, both in laying to rest the past, and in insights gained into the process of thoughts of those actively embracing it seeking for answers for themselves. I think I could write a small book based on this.

Anyway, I'll still follow it, but there's little more I can add that hasn't been. Unless some idea strikes me then I'll share it for the sake of others reading. Sorry if I showed some agitation at certain points. That too was an interesting insight for me as well.

Forgot to mention, one of the other huge gains for this in me has been reading Sojourner's responses and learning about the Emergence Movement in Christianity through him. That has opened up huge doors of possibility in my mind and hope for Christianity to move forward to meeting the spiritual and social needs of this modern age. Real Christianity? A possibility? I think so. As I heard Cynthia Bourgeault say once that she sees her role in Christianity as either a midwife to bring it forth in a new birth, or as a hospice nurse to help those remaining as it passese away. I see the Emergence Movement in that same sort of role, Christianity's midwife, or it's hospice nurse.

 

[Yoshua]

I think it's a tactic of fundamentalists like politicians that believe if they just keep repeating the lie enough it becomes truth. Every time someone offers a correction, just reply repeating the exact same misinformation, rather than entering into dialog, and eventually the other person will give up on you and you win. It's a pattern I've observed over the years.

Hi Windwalker,

Who says there is winning and losing? who says that we produce lies if we had a proof and basis (Scripture) to support our position? How could we change the Scriptures, and magically turned it to truth? addition of truth for the Scriptures are considered perversion of the truth.

I don't uttered the word "winning" and "losing"? It is not my objective and my goal. Do you remember that you ask me to stop posting here and concede? who initiated those thoughts of wining and losing, then concede?

You need to either concede this debate, or do some serious introspection in what you are saying to me here. I give you a guarantee. If you produce solid, credible research, clear and concise teachings from scripture, or any credible source that demonstrates that meditation practice is inherently dangerous for all its practitioners, I will seriously look at it. I already did when you presented your sources, reading carefully everything they said trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But what they presented simply did not, and could not pass the muster of solid, credible research. I'm sorry, but your sources are garbage. That's all I can say. by Windwalker

I believed this is by sharing your thoughts, concept and faith in God. If there come a time that anyone nor any of us did not respond anymore on this thread, I don't consider that as winning the conversation here. Again, I don't consider that as winning the conversation here. Saying that as winning or losing is not the objective and goal of Jesus Christ and Paul, but winning through Christ. We do it for the glory to God, because we have given an opportunity to share His word to others, thus, delivered it in a clear presentation so everyone may understand the gospel of Christ. We believed that the Spirit of Truth brings us to that light so we may see the truth that Jesus confessed, I am the truth.

Phil. 3:8
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Phil. 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I think if I go away and come back in five years this thread will still be going.

Hi Orbit,

Not really. No assurance for that. It is just so happen that Contemplative Christianity is a complex one for discussion. There are many links and inter-connecting topics that can be discuss here.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No kidding! I keep it on my watch list, and its always getting longer.

Hi Bricks,

It is like writing a book.

Thanks