What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Yoshua]

In which case King David was following an occult practice when he danced mightily before the Lord. Both meditation and dancing are from the occult, apparently.

Can you prove it? so we may know if it is coming from the occult.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Did you know that you also interpreted Scriptures?

Why, yes! I've said very clearly every single time I speak of how no one can claim that scriptures interpret themselves, that everyone, without exception, interprets scripture. That includes myself. There isn't anything anywhere in life that we all, without exception, have any understanding of whatsoever that does not pass through the particular lenses of our subjective or collective interpretative filters.

Is that clear now?

you may review your post on how you use the Scriptures to prove contemplative practices.

When have I ever tried to "prove" various practices using scripture? I've been extremely, excessively clear that scripture doesn't say anything about particular practices either way, pro or con. That you claim they do is completely bogus, a very biased, and uninformed reading into scripture your own distrusts and phobias trying to say it's God who says what you believe. Never once have I said, "right here it teaches you should count your breaths". Yet somehow, you claim it says we shouldn't. It's only you who are misusing scripture to prove your beliefs are right, not me.

Did you remember when you used Galatians Scriptures parallel with other Scriptures?

All I was saying is that Christianity has a mystical heart, and it is evidenced in that scripture and others throughout the NT. It wasn't to prove a particular meditative practice or exercise is directly taught in scripture. I am saying your claims the Bible teaches it's all about following the letter of the law are flatly rejected by the authors you cite as authoritative. If they are that to you, then you should drop this whole discussion like a hot potato and read what they say.

Both of us interpreted the Scriptures.

OM MY GOD!!!!! HALLELUJAH! You finally admit you are interpreting scriptures! Now, you no longer are allowed to say, "It's not me, but the scriptures that say this". Nope, it's you, because you are interpreting scriptures. It only took 67 pages to get here, but get here we did!

It is a matter of the sound interpretation (with basis) or accepting what the Scripture says (commandments, teachings of Christ and God’s word for us). Then, who’s talking to a non-expert? I don’t claim that I’m an expert.

Thanks

Well, then where are your experts then? As before, everyone you have cited are as Sojourner eloquently called them "Bozos". They are hardly experts themselves, and everything they cite is based on flawed information and paranoid conspiracy theory-minded thinking. Neither you, nor those you cite are actual experts in this area. However, those you are in discussion with, who you are choosing to refute citing non-experts, are in fact experts. If you agree you should listen to experts, then why aren't you? We are. I have a considerable experience and knowledge in the area I am speaking to, as well as Sojourner who has seminary training on top of it. I too have a degree in theology, but I consider that trivial to what I know through experience and practice. In other words, Sojourner and myself are experts, and you are not, nor are any of the hacks you cite.

If you were honest, you'd be asking us to help you, rather than just biting at something that is inconvenient for you to hear as it challenges what you've come to accept as true from these non-expert, hack sources.

 

[Windwalker]

Can you prove it? so we may know if it is coming from the occult.

Thanks

Oh don't be silly, I was making a joke, citing how InChrist's "proof" that scripture teaches against meditation is based on her view that meditation is an occult practice! I was making a joke that because dancing originated with Shiva, that King David must have been going against scripture too, using her logic train in her argument.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I know that the Bible is not an astronomical book, but some of the Scriptures stated about planetary (sun, moon, stars, orions……..). Therefore, it can be a fact or evidence that God created those planets, stars, moons etc..

It has figurative speech about the visible sun, the visible stars and the visible moon. It knows nothing about what could not be seen at the time that it was written. What I mean is that it is wrong to try to use science to test the Bible. It does not agree with the astronomical facts. The sun is a star, not a greater light. It moves in a curve, not a line. The earth is a sphere not a circle, and it moves and is not stationary. The sun does not move across the sky from a house at its edge. Instead the Earth travels around the sun. The fact that the Earth is not literally touching the sun doesn't change the fact that the Earth hangs from it by an invisible force. That invisible force is still not understood, and we call it gravity. We should admit that we do not understand gravity, because that is the Scientific approach. It is a factual, observational approach without making assumptions. If you don't understand something you should say 'I don't understand it'. The Bible does not do this, but its ok because its not trying to tell you things. When it says the Sun is the greater light, its not being scientific. If it were Scientific it would say 'The sun appears to be brighter, and it appears to move from the edge of the sky to the other edge.' It does not, so people who try to say that Bible knew things about Science before people discovered them -- they are wrong. Not only does it not show supernatural understanding of Astronomy, it also does poorly describe the relationship of the Sun to the Earth and the stars. It is wrong to say that it knows anything about astronomy beyond what we can see standing on our own feet. It is misleading for ministers to insist that the Bible can be proven true through science. They mislead people when they do that, and I loathe that. We aren't even talking about big bangs just basics such as the motion of the Sun. The Bible is completely wrong about it and other astronomical facts.

 

[Windwalker]

It has figurative speech about the visible sun, the visible stars and the visible moon. It knows nothing about what could not be seen at the time that it was written. What I mean is that it is wrong to try to use science to test the Bible. It does not agree with the astronomical facts. The sun is a star, not a greater light. It moves in a curve, not a line. The earth is a sphere not a circle, and it moves and is not stationary. The sun does not move across the sky from a house at its edge. Instead the Earth travels around the sun. The fact that the Earth is not literally touching the sun doesn't change the fact that the Earth hangs from it by an invisible force. That invisible force is still not understood, and we call it gravity. We should admit that we do not understand gravity, because that is the Scientific approach. It is a factual, observational approach without making assumptions. If you don't understand something you should say 'I don't understand it'. The Bible does not do this, but its ok because its not trying to tell you things. When it says the Sun is the greater light, its not being scientific. If it were Scientific it would say 'The sun appears to be brighter, and it appears to move from the edge of the sky to the other edge.' It does not, so people who try to say that Bible knew things about Science before people discovered them -- they are wrong. Not only does it not show supernatural understanding of Astronomy, it also does poorly describe the relationship of the Sun to the Earth and the stars. It is wrong to say that it knows anything about astronomy beyond what we can see standing on our own feet. It is misleading for ministers to insist that the Bible can be proven true through science. They mislead people when they do that, and I loathe that. We aren't even talking about big bangs just basics such as the motion of the Sun. The Bible is completely wrong about it and other astronomical facts.

Playing the devil's advocate here... so you're saying we should throw the Bible in the trash can, curse God and die, or just become atheists or something? If it's not absolutely true, then it's not God's Word and you can just believe anything you want chasing after your own lusts and desires and calling it good. Believing the Bible is infallible is a prerequisite for being a true believer and being saved, right? If you say this above and not accept the Bible speaks flawless facts, since God breathed it, how can you believe anything about God? The Bible must be flawless because God wrote it, and to reject that is to reject God and risk damnation. (Trying to argue from the other side here).

 

[Brickjectivity]

Playing the devil's advocate here... so you're saying we should throw the Bible in the trash can, curse God and die, or just become atheists or something? If it's not absolutely true, then it's not God's Word and you can just believe anything you want chasing after your own lusts and desires and calling it good. Believing the Bible is infallible is a prerequisite for being a true believer and being saved, right? If you say this above and not accept the Bible speaks flawless facts, since God breathed it, how can you believe anything about God? The Bible must be flawless because God wrote it, and to reject that is to reject God and risk damnation. (Trying to argue from the other side here).

Then as the angelic advocate I will reply....The angels who announce Jesus arrival say 'Glory to God in the Highest and peace on Earth and goodwill towards humankind.' (Mark) This 'Glory to God in the highest and peace on Earth' is spoken in a way that means no glory to humankind. Some people who think that they are rich in scripture constantly drag down those whom they think are poor, dragging them to spiritual court all the time. James addresses them thusly: "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you." (James ch 5) He says "Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower." (James ch 1) So how do I know that James is talking about knowledge and not only about money? I know it in a way that I cannot prove to you, because if you lack wisdom you must ask God. (James 1)

 

[Yoshua]

Let's be clear. My reasons for citing scripture is not to validate my views from a source of authority. That is your assumption because that is why you cite scripture. I cite it particularly in this discussion because you are saying it isn't in there, and because it is an issue for you, I simply show it it is in fact supported by scripture if that is what is seen as the factor by you to decide if it's valid or not. I don't use it to validate my own views, as for a long list of reasons I do not accept the Bible is the "final word" on anything. I do however see my practices and experiences consistent with much of what I see taught in the Bible. That means, it shouldn't be an issue for you. In other words, I don't reference it to prove I am right, but to demonstrate your objections are in fact not based on what you claim they are.

Hi Windwalker,

May we know from you if who is the final word for you, if it is not the Bible?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Why, yes! I've said very clearly every single time I speak of how no one can claim that scriptures interpret themselves, that everyone, without exception, interprets scripture. That includes myself. There isn't anything anywhere in life that we all, without exception, have any understanding of whatsoever that does not pass through the particular lenses of our subjective or collective interpretative filters.

Is that clear now?

Then, if your interpretation and my interpretation does not connect or meet each other, what do you think is the cause of it?

When have I ever tried to "prove" various practices using scripture? I've been extremely, excessively clear that scripture doesn't say anything about particular practices either way, pro or con. That you claim they do is completely bogus, a very biased, and uninformed reading into scripture your own distrusts and phobias trying to say it's God who says what you believe. Never once have I said, "right here it teaches you should count your breaths". Yet somehow, you claim it says we shouldn't. It's only you who are misusing scripture to prove your beliefs are right, not me.

Oh well, just want to give you a simple example. If the reformist Martin Luther make a prayer or meditative method like what the contemplative prayers (breathe prayer and centering prayer), would you think we should follow him?

Of course, we don’t follow. You know why? it is because we are very particular when it comes to teachings, methods and practices. The relationship is between God and man, it is not between man and man. The authority comes from God, and not from man. Therefore, anything that is man-made, and contrary with the teachings of Christ must not be followed. As simple as if Jesus did not make that method, then, why we should follow them in exchange with Jesus Christ? We can’t deny and betray God.

Another example is the birth of so many cult teachings, the founder is their (sole) authority instead of God--in reality. If they are being threatened, their true colors comes out. They will fight to death to protect the founder, as well their leaders.

All I was saying is that Christianity has a mystical heart, and it is evidenced in that scripture and others throughout the NT. It wasn't to prove a particular meditative practice or exercise is directly taught in scripture. I am saying your claims the Bible teaches it's all about following the letter of the law are flatly rejected by the authors you cite as authoritative. If they are that to you, then you should drop this whole discussion like a hot potato and read what they say.

Christ’ teachings already proved that.

OM MY GOD!!!!! HALLELUJAH! You finally admit you are interpreting scriptures! Now, you no longer are allowed to say, "It's not me, but the scriptures that say this". Nope, it's you, because you are interpreting scriptures. It only took 67 pages to get here, but get here we did!

I applied Biblical Hermeneutics, a discipline to know what the scripture is saying and apply it. My statement of “the Scripture said it, it’s not me” is still the standard as what we are reading--in literal text--should be understood in its literal sense. As one of my example in John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.” This is a self-understandable statement of Christ for us to follow and to apply. You cannot point your finger to me saying that is my word. It is very clear that it is the statement of Jesus Christ.

Take a look at this:

Biblical Hermeneutics is perhaps summarized best by 2 Timothy 2:15, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Biblical hermeneutics is the science of properly interpreting the various types of literature found in the Bible. For example, a psalm should often be interpreted differently from a prophecy. A proverb should be understood and applied differently from a law. This is the purpose of biblical hermeneutics—to help us to know how to interpret, understand, and apply the Bible.

The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. Literal Bible interpretation means we understand the Bible in its normal/plain meaning. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. Many make the mistake of trying to read between the lines and come up with meanings for Scriptures that are not truly in the text. Yes, of course, there are some spiritual truths behind the plain meanings of Scripture. That does not mean that every Scripture has a hidden spiritual truth, or that it should be our goal to find all such spiritual truths. Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and away from allegorizing and symbolizing Bible verses and passages that should be understood literally.

A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that a verse or passage must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. Historical interpretation refers to understanding the culture, background, and situation which prompted the text. Grammatical interpretation is recognizing the rules of grammar and nuances of the Hebrew and Greek languages and applying those principles to the understanding of a passage. Contextual interpretation involves always taking the surrounding context of a verse/passage into consideration when trying to determine the meaning.

Some mistakenly view biblical hermeneutics as limiting our ability to learn new truths from God's Word or stifling the Holy Spirit's ability to reveal to us the meaning of God's Word. This is not the case. The goal of biblical hermeneutics is to point us to the correct interpretation which the Holy Spirit has already inspired into the text. The purpose of biblical hermeneutics is to protect us from improperly applying a Scripture to a particular situation. Biblical hermeneutics points us to the true meaning and application of Scripture. Hebrews 4:12 declares, "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Biblical hermeneutics is keeping the sword sharp! gotquestions.org

Well, then where are your experts then? As before, everyone you have cited are as Sojourner eloquently called them "Bozos". They are hardly experts themselves, and everything they cite is based on flawed information and paranoid conspiracy theory-minded thinking. Neither you, nor those you cite are actual experts in this area. However, those you are in discussion with, who you are choosing to refute citing non-experts, are in fact experts. If you agree you should listen to experts, then why aren't you? We are. I have a considerable experience and knowledge in the area I am speaking to, as well as Sojourner who has seminary training on top of it. I too have a degree in theology, but I consider that trivial to what I know through experience and practice. In other words, Sojourner and myself are experts, and you are not, nor are any of the hacks you cite.

If you were honest, you'd be asking us to help you, rather than just biting at something that is inconvenient for you to hear as it challenges what you've come to accept as true from these non-expert, hack sources.

Yes, you and Sojourner may have a lot of experience in terms of Contemplative practices/teachings. No doubt about it, but it does not mean all experts adhere and followed the Scriptures. You followed contemplative methodology by contemplative leaders, but for me, I adhere and followed the Scriptures--as the authority because we believed those were divinely inspired word of God. I rather lend my ear to a low-profile person who know and speak the truth of Christ.

Man has no authority over the word of God; it is the word of God that dictates the truth, not us. The expert is God, and not man.

John 15:5
5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Playing the devil's advocate here... so you're saying we should throw the Bible in the trash can, curse God and die, or just become atheists or something? If it's not absolutely true, then it's not God's Word and you can just believe anything you want chasing after your own lusts and desires and calling it good. Believing the Bible is infallible is a prerequisite for being a true believer and being saved, right? If you say this above and not accept the Bible speaks flawless facts, since God breathed it, how can you believe anything about God? The Bible must be flawless because God wrote it, and to reject that is to reject God and risk damnation. (Trying to argue from the other side here).

If anybody who would like to know about God and Jesus Christ, people will look at the Bible. If there is no Bible, how he will not know who is Jesus Christ?

Rom. 10:14-17
14. How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"
16. However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
17. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Hi Windwalker,

May we know from you if who is the final word for you, if it is not the Bible?

Thanks

There is no final word. God is infinite.

 

[Windwalker]

Then, if your interpretation and my interpretation does not connect or meet each other, what do you think is the cause of it?

Personality differences, language, cultural context, developmental stages, education, etc. All these and more go into how people perceive and interpret the world around them. Reality is a mediated reality.

Oh well, just want to give you a simple example. If the reformist Martin Luther make a prayer or meditative method like what the contemplative prayers (breathe prayer and centering prayer), would you think we should follow him?

Sure, why not. If the man has insights then we can learn from him. We do it all the time learning from others. You do it all the time yourself whether you care to admit it or not. In your case however, you follow those who claim to know these things but don't.

Of course, we don’t follow. You know why? it is because we are very particular when it comes to teachings, methods and practices.

Strange you should cite all these fringe "researchers" then as sources of authority behind your arguments against meditative practices. You are particular, only in the sense of biased cherry picking those who say what you already believe, not those who challenge or contradict you.

The relationship is between God and man, it is not between man and man. The authority comes from God, and not from man.

No it doesn't. Those who say "This is God's will", are proclaiming their interpretations of what they think it is. In other words, it is man speaking authoritatively as if it were God speaking. The difference between you and me, is that I recognize this fact.

Therefore, anything that is man-made, and contrary with the teachings of Christ must not be followed.

I've never heard you answer why meditation is contrary to Jesus' teachings. Does it produce good fruit or bad fruit? If good fruit, which it does, then it is consistent with his teachings. And you trying to dissuade others from doing what produces good fruit, is in fact what is contrary to Jesus' teaching. "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

As simple as if Jesus did not make that method, then, why we should follow them in exchange with Jesus Christ? We can’t deny and betray God.

Your line of reasoning is deeply flawed. Never anywhere does Jesus teach methods. How many times must this be pointed out to you? I challenge you to point to even one passage where he does. Teaching the Lord's Prayer is simply an example, not a "method". The how, is left up to us.

Being creative, finding solutions to problems on the road to the goal, is what humans do, and are not only allowed to do but encouraged to do! Here's something you do not get, at all. I myself come up with various 'techniques' in meditation that work for me. No one taught me it. I creatively discover things that work, and being the kind of person I am as a teacher, I share them with others who might benefit from what I've learned. These "techniques", such as Centering Prayer, are simply techniques that people found work. There is no grand cosmic rule book on how to pray! The goal is to connect with God. How you do that, is 100% legitimately up to you. That we learn from each other, that you have teachers helping students, and so forth, is part of the design.

You make this into some sort of fictional reality that can't see what is plain as day in everyday life, in everything we always do with everything. God desires our creativity. He does not desire to repress it. This is where you and I stand on completely different worlds of reality. God desires and encourage creative solutions from his followers. Your idea of God seeks to discourage this. With all my heart, I reject your view of God. God is Creativity itself in how I see, understand, and experience God.

Those teachers who seek to discourage others from deviating away from their own points of view they teach as the truth of God ( who say 'these are not my words but God's'), who through fear tell others to repress their natural creativity, are cult leaders seeking to control other by robbing them of their natural gifts. It is they who are the false teachers, causing the little-ones to stumble. They are poison to the souls of all God's children.

Another example is the birth of so many cult teachings, the founder is their (sole) authority instead of God--in reality. If they are being threatened, their true colors comes out. They will fight to death to protect the founder, as well their leaders.

Sure, there are false teachers out there. They are focused on their egos, not God. But how can you know the difference? The Bible answers this. It's not by whether or not what they say follows your ideas of God as you interpret them through your subjective, imperfect, flawed filters you assume is not your own perception of God, but by the fruit they produce. The answer is as clear as day. "An evil tree cannot produce good fruit". "By their fruits you shall know them".

Spiritual discernment is not something you learn by reading a book and passing judgment on those who interpret it differently than you. It comes from within, from a heart that hears and sees Truth in the heart of another. This is something you do not understand or know.

Christ’ teachings already proved that.

Yet, you cite it as those it were a book of law, the so-called "owner's manual".

I applied Biblical Hermeneutics, a discipline to know what the scripture is saying and apply it. My statement of “the Scripture said it, it’s not me” is still the standard as what we are reading--in literal text--should be understood in its literal sense.

And this is completely false. You are stepping back from that momentary realization you had that you cannot, no one can, bypass our relative points of view, even using scientific methods. To believe you can escape this is delusional. What you cite above, is delusional thinking. "It's not my thoughts, it's the Bible's". Nonsense. This too I completely reject, and unlike you I can argue substantively why. The best you can do is just keep repeating the words you believe hoping it will be true somehow against reason and evidence to the contrary.

Oh well, I thought we had made progress.....

 

[Windwalker]

Hi Windwalker,

May we know from you if who is the final word for you, if it is not the Bible?

Thanks

I answered this a few minutes ago in a separate post, but I want to ask a question to this. Why does there need to be a final word on anything? Explain.

 

[Yoshua]

Sure, why not. If the man has insights then we can learn from him. We do it all the time learning from others. You do it all the time yourself whether you care to admit it or not. In your case however, you follow those who claim to know these things but don't.

Hi Windwalker,

There is no problem in absorbing insights from other people. But not all is beneficial when it comes to spiritual. I follow the claim of Christ, and not man.

Strange you should cite all these fringe "researchers" then as sources of authority behind your arguments against meditative practices. You are particular, only in the sense of biased cherry picking those who say what you already believe, not those who challenge or contradict you.

We believe because Christ is our head/God. I know that there is a spirit to those who are in the contemplative side, and to those who are not in the contemplative side. Those two spirits can’t be the same. The Spirit of truth is the one who guide us in all truth.

John 16:13
13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come

No it doesn't. Those who say "This is God's will", are proclaiming their interpretations of what they think it is. In other words, it is man speaking authoritatively as if it were God speaking. The difference between you and me, is that I recognize this fact.

Knowing God’s will is not from our own interpretation, but it is through obeying His word. Nobody likes to be followed without submitting to his will. If the relationship is not God and man, then you’re having a relationship with someone who is not perfect. For man make mistakes, God does not.

If any man speaking authoritatively, you may examine them by the Scripture if they speak the truth. Did Paul spoke authoritatively in testifying about the gospel?

I've never heard you answer why meditation is contrary to Jesus' teachings. Does it produce good fruit or bad fruit? If good fruit, which it does, then it is consistent with his teachings. And you trying to dissuade others from doing what produces good fruit, is in fact what is contrary to Jesus' teaching. "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

Your way of meditation is different from the Scripture’s way of meditation. The Scripture said in Joshua 1:8,

Joshua 1:8
8. "This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

If you truly believe in the book of John, I believe this passage is telling us His word is truth.

John 17:17
17. "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.

Matt.7:15-20
15. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?
17. "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

If the Scriptures told us from the start (Joshua 1:8) that we shall meditate His word, therefore, bearing good fruits should be consistent with the command of meditation with His word. This is how we detect if there is good fruit or bad fruit. However, the “good fruit” thing came from the book of Matthew--as how we may know that they are trully coming from God or not. This is a warning passage for us—to be aware of the false prophets—as they spread false teachings. Therefore, you will know them by their fruits. Knowing their fruits is being examined through their teachings if it is contrary with the word of God.

I don’t see any reason why people should not agree to meditate with His word if they are good fruits.

Your line of reasoning is deeply flawed. Never anywhere does Jesus teach methods. How many times must this be pointed out to you? I challenge you to point to even one passage where he does. Teaching the Lord's Prayer is simply an example, not a "method". The how, is left up to us.

Your “how” is what makes people to be of his own will and desire. It’s all about what you want and not God want. Why make it complicated? Jesus did taught us how to pray, it seems you and Sojourner differ in “how,” we already tackled this. The Lord’s Prayer is already a “how.”

Being creative, finding solutions to problems on the road to the goal, is what humans do, and are not only allowed to do but encouraged to do! Here's something you do not get, at all. I myself come up with various 'techniques' in meditation that work for me. No one taught me it. I creatively discover things that work, and being the kind of person I am as a teacher, I share them with others who might benefit from what I've learned. These "techniques", such as Centering Prayer, are simply techniques that people found work. There is no grand cosmic rule book on how to pray! The goal is to connect with God. How you do that, is 100% legitimately up to you. That we learn from each other, that you have teachers helping students, and so forth, is part of the design.

Being creative is good. Why not? But not making yourself as the solution for all your problems especially in spiritual life. Cult founders had also the same concept by making his own creativity to start a beliefs, and it works. Why not? Because there is a bad fruit and a good fruit. Effectiveness and efficiency in spiritual experiences does not guarantee its validity and authenticity in the light of the Scriptures. Every beliefs may confessed it works for them, but the truth of Christ—is by Holy Spirit’s working; this will guarantee as the Spirit of truth, who only speaks the truth, and not lies.

Eph. 1:13
13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Centering Prayer is obviously founded by man. God does not need a beautiful and flowery prayers. He looks at the heart and not by being creative in prayers.

Matt. 6:6-8
6. "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
7. "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
8. "Therefore do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need, before you ask Him.

You make this into some sort of fictional reality that can't see what is plain as day in everyday life, in everything we always do with everything. God desires our creativity. He does not desire to repress it. This is where you and I stand on completely different worlds of reality. God desires and encourage creative solutions from his followers. Your idea of God seeks to discourage this. With all my heart, I reject your view of God. God is Creativity itself in how I see, understand, and experience God.

Those teachers who seek to discourage others from deviating away from their own points of view they teach as the truth of God ( who say 'these are not my words but God's'), who through fear tell others to repress their natural creativity, are cult leaders seeking to control other by robbing them of their natural gifts. It is they who are the false teachers, causing the little-ones to stumble. They are poison to the souls of all God's children.

False teachers can be traced and detected facing with the Scriptures. In casting out demons and healing the sick, there is no instruction to be creative in doing those things. You may use that creativity when it comes to--how you may use the Scriptures from reaching others, but not adding any procedures/method especially in adoration, worshiping and communicating with God.

The Lord’s prayer is a complete “how” in prayer.

Sure, there are false teachers out there. They are focused on their egos, not God. But how can you know the difference? The Bible answers this. It's not by whether or not what they say follows your ideas of God as you interpret them through your subjective, imperfect, flawed filters you assume is not your own perception of God, but by the fruit they produce. The answer is as clear as day. "An evil tree cannot produce good fruit". "By their fruits you shall know them".

Spiritual discernment is not something you learn by reading a book and passing judgment on those who interpret it differently than you. It comes from within, from a heart that hears and sees Truth in the heart of another. This is something you do not understand or know.

Spiritual discernment is a spiritual gift from God. Every follower of Christ has its own gift to edify the church, and to propagate Christ’s ministry. Yes, that is true, spiritual discernment is not learned from reading a book, it is by meditating and applying God’s word in obedience. It is not the book, it is the word of God—Bible.

We don’t judge your interpretation, we shared our understanding of the Scriptures. As I posted a number of times about interpretation, it should be consistent from each other (wholistic, not partial) to know the truth. Truth cannot stand in lies, but pure truth.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I answered this a few minutes ago in a separate post, but I want to ask a question to this. Why does there need to be a final word on anything? Explain.

We lived in a world that we (all) have a superior (above us in rank or status).

Office – we have bosses, managers, owners
Soldier- we have generals
Son and daughters-parents
Citizen- government (Mayor, Senators, President)

We lived in a society and community that there is someone who—is on top of us. Now, if you’ll look closely, the subordinates submit and obey to his superiors. Now, turn your back to the characters of the Bible, from Kings, Master, and down to slaves. They’re also do have the same pattern of rank and file.

But who’s above of those who are above us (topmost)? That is no other than the Creator Himself, God.

Therefore, there is an authority. We lived in a world of authority. Therefore, there should be a final word on anything. God is the overall authority. If a man make his own authority without acknowledging and accepting God’s authority, he is making his own man-made rules, surely it will be flawed whether he like it or not, because He is not perfect nor he is God.

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Ok. It seems John 14:23 command is exempt from your spirituality in loving God.

John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.

This doesn't conflict with anything I've said.

Ok. From my understanding with your statement, it would come out that Jesus is allowing us to believe and adhered different religions aside from Christianity.

Jesus didn't teach us to adhere to Christianity, as Christianity didn't exist at that time. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus taught us to love God and to love neighbor as self.

Ok. Does keeping and remaining in His word here is to follow God’s word and Jesus teachings?

Jesus is the embodiment of God's word. Jesus taught us to love. God's word is love. God's commandment is to love.

Sorry. Your example of pie illustration is not applicable for me—as the follower of Christ.

Because you (mistakenly) think that Christianity is the only real pie. Unfortunately, your example of truth is not applicable for the rest of the world.

Here is an article about your concept of the pie

The article is biased, mistaken, and not very noteworthy.

 

[Windwalker]

We lived in a world that we (all) have a superior (above us in rank or status).

Office – we have bosses, managers, owners
Soldier- we have generals
Son and daughters-parents
Citizen- government (Mayor, Senators, President)

No. This is in fact not true. What you are describing is only one type of organizational structure, one which is very hierarchical. There are others far more versed in the different types of organizational structures that can go into the differences, but be clear here you are mistaking what you see in certain types of organizations as the "natural order". That is a false assumption on your part.

For a quick example, if you look at some of the more common types of church organizational structures, you have episcopal, presbyterian, and congregational. To look at the Congregational model in comparison to what you cite let me quote from here,

"The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church defines "congregationalism" as "that form of Church polity which rests on the independence and autonomy of each local church." According to this source, the principles of democracy in church government rest on the belief that Christ is the sole head of his church, the members are all priests unto God, and these units are regarded each as an outcrop and representative of the church universal." ( Who Runs the Church?: 4 Views on Church Government, Steven B. Cowan, gen. ed., p. 135, Zondervan 2004)

Churches organized with a congregational polity may be involved in conventions, districts or associations which allow them to share common beliefs, cooperate in joint ministry efforts and regulate clergy with other congregations. Churches organized with a congregational polity generally disapprove of acknowledging authority in councils or other proceedings involving delegates or representatives from outside the local congregation. However, congregational polity does not prevent a local congregation's leadership from adopting the decision or position of another congregation or a council or other gathering.​

When you get back into the early church there were many whose organizational structures had no leaders, where they drew lots at the beginning of each gathering as to who would lead that day. In decision making you also have various "consensus" models, such as "Consensus minus one", or "Consensus minus three", etc. In these types of structures you do not have a top down authoritarian model. And yet, they function well. Each types of systems of governance has pluses and minus. But make no mistake, even organizational models are organically, and creatively grown -- just like the various religious practices which naturally emerge.

This is what the world looks like when you fling open your doors and windows to understand the world outside. Not everything fits your model of reality you've adopted from others, which in your case is one which seeks to control others authoritatively; anything but liberate them.

All this to say, your idea of needing a "final word" is bogus. It's only valid if you say, believe in the model that has the Pope at the top of the order. That "Christ is the head of the church", does not in any way, shape, or form, mean that is the "final word", because again, it is humans who interpret it, and therefore a human's voice that is acting as the "final word", such as the Pope speaking "from the chair", or ex-cathedra. Do you accept the Pope's final word as to matters of interpretation? Five people reading Jesus' words have five different interpretations. Which one of those is final? Which mode of interpretation is authoritative? Whose point of view dominates? That's the inherent problem with your model.

What you fail to understand or realize at the point in life you are at is that Spirit does not have a "final word". It is infinite, living, and growing. A final word means there is an end point, a stopping point of understanding, and that is contrary to the "Living Word". You know what the "final word" is? Death. It has a stopping point, an end point. And that is death. It is a corpse. The "Living Word" on the other hand has a continual unfolding of meaning and potential. It reflects the very nature of Life itself. I choose Life over death.

 

[Windwalker]

There is no problem in absorbing insights from other people. But not all is beneficial when it comes to spiritual. I follow the claim of Christ, and not man.

You follow your interpretation of what you believe Christ wants. You follow your belief. Make no mistake, this is in fact the case.

We believe because Christ is our head/God. I know that there is a spirit to those who are in the contemplative side, and to those who are not in the contemplative side. Those two spirits can’t be the same. The Spirit of truth is the one who guide us in all truth.

Why can't they be the same? Because you understand how God works in everyone's life? I think you err, you sin greatly to place yourself as Judge over another man's servant, contrary to Jesus' teaching to not do so.

John 16:13
13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come

I agree. That's exactly what happens through meditation.

Knowing God’s will is not from our own interpretation, but it is through obeying His word.

Obeying according to how you interpret it. You cannot escape accepting you are in facing interpreting what his word is, using your own mind and how it thinks and conveniences of truth. You cannot escape your subjective mind in how you read it. Period. This fact destroys all your arguments against others, in which you offend the Spirit of Truth itself.

Nobody likes to be followed without submitting to his will. If the relationship is not God and man, then you’re having a relationship with someone who is not perfect. For man make mistakes, God does not.

God does not make mistakes because God is not relative. You are, and you are mistaken about a very long list of things, many of which you demonstrate in all of these posts of yours proclaiming yourself know what truth is and proclaiming yourself as Judge over others,though you hide from this saying it's not your interpretation. The fact is, you are judging in God's stead, and sin greatly in doing so.

If any man speaking authoritatively, you may examine them by the Scripture if they speak the truth. Did Paul spoke authoritatively in testifying about the gospel?

Sure Paul did. Is Paul the final word? No. There is much I agree with Paul on, and much I find him to be a flaming egotistical control freak about. Paul was imperfect, just like any of us. There is no reason to accept Paul's word as final. The other Apostles certainly didn't. It's Christianity after all, not Paulianity.

Your way of meditation is different from the Scripture’s way of meditation.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There are many ways to meditate, including that one, which is in fact part of my own meditation practice. The Bible doesn't prescribe each and every individual form of practice. Get over it.

If you truly believe in the book of John, I believe this passage is telling us His word is truth.

I don't "believe in" the book of John. It's a book. I don't worship paper and ink, as I realize it can only be understood through our subjective, realtive, imperfect, and finite points of view. You however think magically that you don't. I rest in Spirit. That I accept as true. I don't "believe in" the Bible. I do however hear Truth in it, as well as in the words of others, as well as in the flowers of the field, as well as in the eyes of a child. It's too bad you're blind to those.

John 17:17
17. "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.

Amen. I see the Word as all manifest Truth of Spirit, in every living thing. You only see it in a book. So does your friend InChrist. That is the major difference between us. God only speaks to you with paper and ink.

Anyway, we're back to you stuck on the idea you're not interpreting things. I really can't help you see the truth of the matter as you're stuck in your own mind as reflective of all reality. It's like me yelling at a bone to get longer, whereas it's simply a matter of growth. The fact is, I have no reason whatsoever to consider your criticism of these things we do as having any validity whatsoever. They are invalid, and cannot be supported reasonably. The only take away from this for you, is to try, really try to listen to what your heart says and quit placing yourself as Judge over others, calling that which is good evil.

 

[sojourner]

His will shall be followed, not our own will.

When we love, we do that.

That would mean there is a false truth.

That's an oxymoron. There is no "false" truth. There is only truth.

Jesus would not give us the Spirit of truth if there is already truth for all.

Truth began with God. There has always been "already truth." Jesus' truth is the truth of God -- the truth of love that has always been.

it is Jesus Christ who decides, it is His word that is pointing to the truth.

Jesus has already decided in favor of God -- in favor of love -- in whatever form it may need to take.

Jesus did not promote paganism in the first place.

Jesus didn't promote Christianity in the first place.

We are focus our mind and heart to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. It is the relationship with Him that matters by obeying His word.

Yes -- to the love he taught. That is the love we are to obey.

do you mean that without God, man is without faith?

Or because there is God, we should have faith to receive God’s offer of salvation?

I mean that faith points us toward God -- in whatever form we need for God to take, and it is that touch -- that relationship -- of love that saves us.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word is the evidence of love to Him.

My Father will love him is the result of love.

God is love. God is always the Cause.

I don’t see any connection with Phil. 2 and Luke 15 in regard to humanity, because the word “whoever” is particular in any person who believes in Him.

Of course you don't. Whoever loves and participates in love, believes.

The emphasis in John 3:16 is individual, and not the same as all people will bow and confess, including until all are found. Luke 15 emphasized God’s love, and not the call of believing Him.

Here's where you're wrong. IMO. The emphasis is communal, because that's how the ancients who wrote the texts thought -- in terms of community, not in terms of individuals -- especially when it came to acts of God.

So, that would mean Jesus is only a myth?

Myths aren't "only" anything. Myths are not falsehoods. Myths are great truths couched in metaphor. Myths are very, very powerful, and express the deepest hopes and dreams of humanity. Yes. Jesus is mythic -- highly mythic -- because Jesus represents the very highest, deepest relationship we can have with the Divine.

Not really because I did not claim as theologian, but I love theology.

If you "love theology," you wouldn't dabble in it without treating it with the respect it deserves. Any time one speaks theologically, one speaks "as a theologian." Therefore, you'd better know what you're speaking before you speak it. I just don't see any theological depth to your posts -- nothing uniquely experiential -- only parroting what you've heard or read others say.

Yes, he covered it because of sin.

The covering of himself was sin. The feeling that he could not stand as he was in front of God was sin. That feeling is false. We can always stand as we are before God and be honest about ourselves with God.

 

[sojourner]

How do you think that the bereans examined the Scriptures?

Through contemplation. And considering the metaphoric and symbolic meaning.

 

[sojourner]

Gen. 1:1-5

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5. And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Did you know any other being or entity who created the light and the sun?

When God said “Let there be light,” is there a light day, and the darkness called night? Is it wrong?

Thanks

This addresses nothing in my post.