What is Contemplative Christianity?

[sojourner]

God is an exception to others.

Thanks

That's still not an answer.

 

[Yoshua]

That's a belief, not a fact.

Oh, it is obviously the truth that you cannot accept, Isn't it? you changed the truth that there are stars, God made the stars as indicated in the Scriptures.

Do you see stars at night? Have you seen stars in the sky?

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Oh, it is obviously the truth that you cannot accept, Isn't it? you changed the truth that there are stars, God made the stars as indicated in the Scriptures.

Do you see stars at night? Have you seen stars in the sky?

Thanks

Just because I see stars in the sky isn't proof that "God made them." Yes there are stars. That's a fact. "God made them" is a belief.

 

[Windwalker]

Psychology is the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context; the mental characteristics or attitude of a person or group; the mental and emotional factors governing a situation or activity.

I was going to give you an A+ for getting this right, but when you don't cite the source from where you steal an exact quote it's considered plagiarism, citing another's words as your own : https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Psychology/Lecture

That said however, it's good you looked up what the word means as it's obvious you didn't know what it was. Based on the rest of your post, I can see even after finding it in the dictionary you still don't understand what it means. A dictionary explaining words is no substitute for an actual education where you can demonstrate an actual understanding of the words.

As you have said, Religion is not psychology. That is clear that psychology should not become a doctrine of Christ’s teaching.

Test: Explain how psychology can become a "doctrine"? What would the "doctrine" look like? Hint: saying this statement above is an incorrect application of what psychology is will be considered a correct response.

This is just my concern yet psychology can contribute in some aspect. Religion is a set of beliefs.

Bonus essay question: Explain how understanding the way the human mind works contributes to an understanding of one's own beliefs and understanding of their own religion.

How then psychology has to do with the life and works of Jesus Christ in your perspective?

It has everything to do with how we perceive, interpret, and act upon ideas and beliefs, including those from religious sources. If someone has a paranoid mind for instance, how they read the Bible and the stories of Jesus will be reflected in their understanding, turning a message of love into one of fear and dark spiritual conspiracies, of demons out to steal your religion and your soul. If someone was abused as a child by a domineering and threatening parent figure, how they understand God will reflect that abusive parent whom they must fear. The mind is reflected back to itself. Understanding our own minds leads us to seeing truth beyond ourselves.


This leads to a conversation I had last night with a friend about how being a pastor of a church would require today knowing when it is time to deal with certain problem members who have psychological issues, to get them into some professional psychological or psychiatric help. We discussed how certain members of the congregation might feel that if they just "tried harder" to show love and forgiveness to this problem member that that somehow will make the difference, and that it is the role of the pastor or leader of the group to help facilitate a 'buy in' of those who want to believe they should do more for them themselves, helping them understand the need for professional help for some people.

We then came to the sort of church you are in, the fundamentalist church, where they see all this business of psychology and modern science as just so much nonsense because they see it all as a matter of angels and demons, spiritual warfare, possessions and exorcisms, and so forth. In other words they do not avail themselves of the tools of modern resources which have studied the mind and the body in how it functions, and instead cling to witch-doctoring methods and means. The person who has psychiatric problems who is disrupting the church body is seen as having a devil, and the cure is prayer and holy water and exorcisms in the congregation.

Basically the difference is psychology is an understanding of the human mind through research and rational tools, as opposed to speculation, superstitions, and the practice of voodoo and witch doctoring to cure the mind. I operate with my mind in the 21st century, and you operate in the 13th century. I believe what modern science can offer is far better than what the understanding of the human being was in the 13th century. I understand Jesus from a different mind than you do, and hence I interpret everything in vastly different ways, ways which reflect modernity, postmodernity, and post-post modernity as opposed to ways which reflect the pre-modern mythic and magical world where everything was controlled by unseen magical spirits whom we can control through wishful thinking and ritual prayers, citing "I plead the blood of Jesus over you", in attempts to cure their troubled minds.

That's really what all of this comes down to. A difference in the centuries in which we live and see the world through. A difference in how are minds are shaped and influenced. You see me as satanic. I see you as pre-modern.

 

[Yoshua]

Just because I see stars in the sky isn't proof that "God made them." Yes there are stars. That's a fact. "God made them" is a belief.

Oh, it is obviously the truth that you cannot accept, Isn't it? you changed the truth that there are stars, God made the stars as indicated in the Scriptures.
Do you see stars at night? Have you seen stars in the sky?By Yoshua

Hi Sojourner,

Yes, you have a point, but (as example) if we have several books and one of the book is the Bible stating that God made the stars. It is the choice of person if he truly believes that the Scripture stated (about stars) in Genesis is true. Same as a person who believe that the Bible is the word of God.

By the way, if God not made them, who do you think made the stars?

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Oh, it is obviously the truth that you cannot accept, Isn't it? you changed the truth that there are stars, God made the stars as indicated in the Scriptures.
Do you see stars at night? Have you seen stars in the sky?By Yoshua

Hi Sojourner,

Yes, you have a point, but (as example) if we have several books and one of the book is the Bible stating that God made the stars. It is the choice of person if he truly believes that the Scripture stated (about stars) in Genesis is true. Same as a person who believe that the Bible is the word of God.

By the way, if God not made them, who do you think made the stars?

Thanks

Doesn't matter if you choose to believe. That doesn't make it fact. That makes it belief, that not everyone will share.

I think the stars came about naturally, through a process of motion/attraction of particles, to put it very simply.

 

[Yoshua]

I was going to give you an A+ for getting this right, but when you don't cite the source from where you steal an exact quote it's considered plagiarism, citing another's words as your own : https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Psychology/Lecture

Hi Windwalker,

Oh. Sorry. I got the definition from the simple google.com.

That said however, it's good you looked up what the word means as it's obvious you didn't know what it was. Based on the rest of your post, I can see even after finding it in the dictionary you still don't understand what it means. A dictionary explaining words is no substitute for an actual education where you can demonstrate an actual understanding of the words.

I had already in mind what is psychology. This subject has been discussed in high school and in college. I got the meaning of psychology from the right source so it will not take a long time to discuss its meaning. I’m not a psychology degree graduate, but I‘m not zero knowledge about psychology.

Test: Explain how psychology can become a "doctrine"? What would the "doctrine" look like? Hint: saying this statement above is an incorrect application of what psychology is will be considered a correct response.

As I said I did not agree that Psychology should not become a doctrine, and you ask me how it become a doctrine? Why need to test me in that question?

Anyway, my understanding about “doctrine” is a set of beliefs, teachings including its principles. I believed psychology has it's principles but not dominating the doctrine of Christ.

Bonus essay question: Explain how understanding the way the human mind works contributes to an understanding of one's own beliefs and understanding of their own religion.

My idea about psychology is focused (more) on behavioral problem that need to be corrected. It can help in terms of counseling people so they will be better understand.

For human mind working in terms of beliefs, I don’t think this can be the primary concern for a person’s faith in God. Maybe, this will work more on the counseling side but not on choosing who to believe as your deity. The Holy Spirit can work (powerfully) in the life of a believer as transforming him into a new creature, a born-again, born-anew spirit in Christ like a notorius criminal who became a follower of Christ.

It has everything to do with how we perceive, interpret, and act upon ideas and beliefs, including those from religious sources. If someone has a paranoid mind for instance, how they read the Bible and the stories of Jesus will be reflected in their understanding, turning a message of love into one of fear and dark spiritual conspiracies, of demons out to steal your religion and your soul. If someone was abused as a child by a domineering and threatening parent figure, how they understand God will reflect that abusive parent whom they must fear. The mind is reflected back to itself. Understanding our own minds leads us to seeing truth beyond ourselves.

Oh. Here we go again with your term “paranoid.” You may use that word for those who has a personality disorder and anxiety disorder, but not covering the whole beliefs/faiths around the world. If the follower of Christ (disciple of Jesus) followed obediently in accordance with God's will, do you think that is paranoid?

Then, in reversal, those who are in contemplative practices is also considered paranoid to read the Scriptures because of its authority--as the word of God. They feared to lay down their mystical practices; it worked the same thing as they've also fears. Same as those with Muslims who feared to read the Bible and accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, God and Saviour. How about the Buddhist, do you think they don’t have fear to become a Christian?

I rather agree with your example of an abused child, and not to the extreme--in relation to beliefs/faiths.

This leads to a conversation I had last night with a friend about how being a pastor of a church would require today knowing when it is time to deal with certain problem members who have psychological issues, to get them into some professional psychological or psychiatric help. We discussed how certain members of the congregation might feel that if they just "tried harder" to show love and forgiveness to this problem member that that somehow will make the difference, and that it is the role of the pastor or leader of the group to help facilitate a 'buy in' of those who want to believe they should do more for them themselves, helping them understand the need for professional help for some people.

Absolutely! If they have psychological issues, then go to psychologist. For mental disorder, a psychiatrist.

We then came to the sort of church you are in, the fundamentalist church, where they see all this business of psychology and modern science as just so much nonsense because they see it all as a matter of angels and demons, spiritual warfare, possessions and exorcisms, and so forth. In other words they do not avail themselves of the tools of modern resources which have studied the mind and the body in how it functions, and instead cling to witch-doctoring methods and means. The person who has psychiatric problems who is disrupting the church body is seen as having a devil, and the cure is prayer and holy water and exorcisms in the congregation.

Just to clarify with you that I’m not forbidding myself to watch movies and dance like what fundamentalist believed. I’m more on the practical side in obedience by not compromising the will of God. There is really a demons, spiritual warfare, possessions and others. I’ve experienced those and see it through my own eyes. It is not my own thinking as wanting to discover things. If psychology is telling that those are not true, then that is clearly dominating the real understanding of the truth claimed by Christ. Do you require to study the mind and the body before you worship God by heart and mind?

I’m not against the fact that mental disorder is sometimes diagnosed as demon-possessed. This is reality and it happened. But praying for the person to be cured, why not? You may pray that God will give wisdom to the psychiatrist diagnosing properly, thus by helping the patient in recovery. Prayer for cure is for God’s miraculous act, and not ours. God’s miracles is not limited. He can cure that patient in the middle of the doctor's diagnosis, we don’t know how God will act upon our prayers.

Basically the difference is psychology is an understanding of the human mind through research and rational tools, as opposed to speculation, superstitions, and the practice of voodoo and witch doctoring to cure the mind. I operate with my mind in the 21st century, and you operate in the 13th century. I believe what modern science can offer is far better than what the understanding of the human being was in the 13th century. I understand Jesus from a different mind than you do, and hence I interpret everything in vastly different ways, ways which reflect modernity, postmodernity, and post-post modernity as opposed to ways which reflect the pre-modern mythic and magical world where everything was controlled by unseen magical spirits whom we can control through wishful thinking and ritual prayers, citing "I plead the blood of Jesus over you", in attempts to cure their troubled minds.

That's really what all of this comes down to. A difference in the centuries in which we live and see the world through. A difference in how are minds are shaped and influenced. You see me as satanic. I see you as pre-modern.

You cannot measure your understanding of God in compare with others. It is not measurable. Never did Christ told his disciples to be greater from other disciples. He said this statements :

Matt. 18:3-4
3. and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4. "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:17
17. "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.''

God said this statement before your quoted 13th century. Modern or modernism does not have an assurance in God’s kingdom. It’s not about modern or pre-modern. We follow the teachings of Christ, and not modern Christ. The key is to follow the will of God rather than men or mystical things.

Again, I want to clarify. I did’nt say you are satanic or you worship Satan or Satanist. I did not quote that term since the start of this thread. It is the principles/practices that is not is not in line with Christ’s teachings.

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

My idea about psychology is focused (more) on behavioral problem that need to be corrected. It can help in terms of counseling people so they will be better understand

Psychology is the study of the human psyche, as physiology is the study of the human physique. You're thinking of psychiatry, which deals with mental illness. Psychology isnt't about "fixing broken people." It's about studying the mind, how peole think, and how they act. Psychology is useful in the study of how and why people think theologically. Psychiatry isn't. Psychiatry is more suited to the discovery and treatment of mental illness -- neuroses and psychoses.

 

[Windwalker]

As I said I did not agree that Psychology should not become a doctrine, and you ask me how it become a doctrine? Why need to test me in that question?

I asked the question because you said psychology shouldn't become a doctrine. How could it become one, is the question? It's like saying psychology shouldn't become a chocolate chip cookie. How could it? How do you imagine one can possibly make psychology a doctrine? How would anyone do that? Psychology is a scientific study of the human mind. It has nothing to do with doctrines, tenets of faith, or chocolate chip cookies.

Oh wait, I think I get what you mean. You mean we should not listen to what science says and let our religious beliefs override any other understanding about ourselves. Am I right?

Anyway, my understanding about “doctrine” is a set of beliefs, teachings including its principles. I believed psychology has it's principles but not dominating the doctrine of Christ.

Yes, you are saying that. You believe if what you believe religiously, how you think based upon faith is challenged by any source other than the Bible, you should ignore it. You should never believe science because you have the answers to everything through your religious beliefs and doctrines. Right?

My idea about psychology is focused (more) on behavioral problem that need to be corrected. It can help in terms of counseling people so they will be better understand.

And herein is the source of your problem. I am talking about psychology which, to use the definition you quoted from your Google search, "Psychology is a scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context. It can refer to the mental characteristics or attitude of a person or group, or the mental and emotional factors governing a situation or activity." I see nothing in there about Abnormal Psychology which is what you are mistaking all of psychology to be about.

Understanding normal psychology, the way anyone's mind works, is in fact quite important to understanding how we come to belief the things we do. You seem to imagine it has no role whatsoever in how you form your beliefs. This to me says you are highly uninformed and self-unaware. You are blind to how your own mind works and plays a role in your belief formation.

For human mind working in terms of beliefs, I don’t think this can be the primary concern for a person’s faith in God.

I think it is in fact of primary concern. Most definitely. How one thinks about and imagines God, how one's faith operates in themselves, and every single facet of the religious life and beliefs and practices directly influences and is influenced by their psychological makeup! Nothing escapes it. So it is to me essential and critical to look at it and understand it and work with it. No doubt in my mind at all on this. In fact in order to grow spiritually, you need to address the mind itself, which is psychology. And I can point to the Bible that even it's authors understood this, even though they had no scientific research about psychology. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he". That's psychology.

Maybe, this will work more on the counseling side but not on choosing who to believe as your deity.

This is where you are completely disadvantaged in your understanding of things. It absolutely plays a role in what you believe, or who or what you believe in. Culture, for one, largely dictates our religious choices, and culture programs our minds to think and act and make choices within a set of parameters. Like the old saying goes, Muslim parents raise Muslim children, Christians Christians, and so forth.

The Holy Spirit can work (powerfully) in the life of a believer as transforming him into a new creature, a born-again, born-anew spirit in Christ like a notorius criminal who became a follower of Christ.

Well, though I certainly believe a spiritual life transforms someone, I'm certain my understanding of that is a lot more than just someone converting to a religion.

Oh. Here we go again with your term “paranoid.” You may use that word for those who has a personality disorder and anxiety disorder, but not covering the whole beliefs/faiths around the world.

I love your magical twisting of what I said to say that I think ALL religions and beliefs and faiths around the world are based on paranoia. Never have I said that, nor do I for one second believe that. What I DO mean however is the type of beliefs you are your friend in this thread espouse, the sorts of demon-conspiracy behind all other beliefs and practices other than those which you hold to, are in fact deeply paranoid and disturbed. Yes, your views are spawned out of and driven by paranoid, conspiracy-theory minded thinking. When asked for substantive support, what is offered is citations from the conspiracy-minded think tanks.

Is that a "personality disorder"? I'm not willing to say that, but I am willing to say it's certainly a cognitive dysfunction. It's not healthy, as it's views cannot be supported rationally. It's fear-based. And it's effects are unhealthy.

If the follower of Christ (disciple of Jesus) followed obediently in accordance with God's will, do you think that is paranoid?

Nope. But how one interprets "God's will", and what it means to be obedient to that can in fact be deeply disturbed. Not in the majority of cases, but clearly there are fringe groups who believe all manner of freakish and even dangerous things about "God's will".

Then, in reversal, those who are in contemplative practices is also considered paranoid to read the Scriptures because of its authority--as the word of God.

I'm not "paranoid", nor even fearful in the very least to look at the Bible. I know it intimately and quote from it all the time. I am very well versed in it, and find it fascinating on many levels. I simply have a rational understanding of it. That rational mind is anything but paranoid. It's inquisitve and curious. The exact opposite of those who bury their faces in the Bible and refuse to acknowledge things like psychology, anthropology, sociology, and the like as having any influence whatsoever in how we choose to believe the things we do religiously. To, who is inquisitive and curious here, and who is not? The one that is not, is the one rapt in fear.

They feared to lay down their mystical practices; it worked the same thing as they've also fears.

Nonsense talk You don't understand that meditation practices is a discipline. It requires making a concerted effort to follow through with them. It's very, very easy to make excuses to yourself and just sit on the computer typing out responses like this on the Internet! (Such as I am doing right now). Whenever I fall back from my self-discipline and skip my practices, it's like not exercising your body. After awhile your muscle tone gets flabby. It's not a matter of fear to choose meditation practice, it's a matter of knowing what is healthy to do, versus just being lazy. Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understand of what you criticize.

Same as those with Muslims who feared to read the Bible and accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, God and Saviour. How about the Buddhist, do you think they don’t have fear to become a Christian?

Again, your lack of understanding of the human mind leads to incorrect assumptions such as you make here. It's not a matter of fear for them, it's a matter of the ideas don't fit within their cultural frameworks. I know a bit about Buddhism. I find a great deal of truth and insight in it. But I personally won't become a Buddhist because frankly, it's rooted in another culture and one as an outsider to it, I could never fully glean its full meaning and understanding. You have to be raised in it, where its symbols are embedded in all you are within the culture from childhood on. That's not to mean it doesn't work for "converts" to it, but it's not the same as being born into it.

And that's the point. It's not "fear" why people don't change religions. The variables are far, far, far more complex than that.

 

[Windwalker]

I rather agree with your example of an abused child, and not to the extreme--in relation to beliefs/faiths.

Good. Glad you see how those who see God as something to be feared for the great Punisher are seeing God as a reflection of their own abusive parents.

Absolutely! If they have psychological issues, then go to psychologist. For mental disorder, a psychiatrist.

You don't try to cast out the demons in your church? When do you say go to a psychologist instead? Do you, ever?

Just to clarify with you that I’m not forbidding myself to watch movies and dance like what fundamentalist believed. I’m more on the practical side in obedience by not compromising the will of God.

Same difference. They believe they are obeying God's will in not going to movies.

There is really a demons, spiritual warfare, possessions and others. I’ve experienced those and see it through my own eyes.

And there's no other explanation for these things, these behaviors you have seen other than demons? What about the human mind? What about psychological reasons?

It is not my own thinking as wanting to discover things. If psychology is telling that those are not true, then that is clearly dominating the real understanding of the truth claimed by Christ.

Yes, here we come back to rejecting science because it challenges your beliefs. This is core to it all for you. That's unfortunate. I believe that hurts your faith, not helps it.

Do you require to study the mind and the body before you worship God by heart and mind?

No. But understanding it, working with it, will in fact help you grow spiritually. That's what I believe.

There is a reason I like the term 'psychospiritual'. The two are very much connected to each other. If you are hanging onto hidden things in the mind, they will directly affect you spiritually. Absolutely, I believe that. I would love to really open the door on that discussion in relation to the whole value of "forgiveness" in Christian faith. That forgiveness, directly goes into the things we hold inside our minds, which affect our heart, which affect our abilities to grow spiritually and live a liberated life. Absolutely it's essential for spiritual growth. But to come to God? No, we come as we are, every time. Each time, we learn that we can love ourselves. Eventually, we actually believe it.

I’m not against the fact that mental disorder is sometimes diagnosed as demon-possessed. This is reality and it happened.

This is a step forward. I just don't believe any are actually demon possessed, regardless of how freakish their behaviors are. I believe people call psychological and psychiatric disorders demons and spirits because of a lack of understanding of the human mind, like saying a flu bug is because of an evil and vexing spirit. It's a pre-scientific term for abnormal behavior.

But praying for the person to be cured, why not?

Sure, I don't think that hurts, and it may do good through the intentional support of the community of that person. Anyone in knowledge of this will be aided by those who love them. And even perhaps beyond that as well. But this doesn't mean playing witch-doctor and not getting the person professional help is an act of faith or "obeying God". That's very misguided thinking and belief that does that.

You may pray that God will give wisdom to the psychiatrist diagnosing properly, thus by helping the patient in recovery. Prayer for cure is for God’s miraculous act, and not ours. God’s miracles is not limited. He can cure that patient in the middle of the doctor's diagnosis, we don’t know how God will act upon our prayers.

Fine, but I'd be careful not to say that when a surgeon removes a tumor from someone that God did a miracle. Thank God for doctors! Don't ignore science. Thank God for science. Thank God for reason. Thank God for modern medicine. Thank God for psychology. Thank God for modern studies in comparative religions. Thank God for anything that helps us to be healthier and more whole. Thank God for progress!

You cannot measure your understanding of God in compare with others. It is not measurable.

Of course it is, and yes I can. Paul did.

Never did Christ told his disciples to be greater from other disciples.

No, no, no. Saying your knowledge of God and spiritual growth is more advanced or mature than another is not a value judgment saying that the person themselves is greater than another. All all equally loved and valued by God. The love God has for me, is not greater than the love he has for you. But for me to say I know more than you, is not to say I am "better" than you before God. No, no, no.

Very clearly in the Bible it speaks of those who are more mature, more advanced, of greater wisdom, and so forth. It is an error to think that some "babe in Christ" has equal value in his understanding of God and the ways of a spiritual path as someone who is deeply devoted to study and spiritual practice for his whole life. For that latter, it is as Christ said, "To whom much is given, much is required". It bears a greater responsibility, and a greater humility. But to simply recognize the fact someone is more advanced, is not a matter of being 'better" than someone. The more advanced soul should know better than that. "Let he is who would be first among you being the servant of all".

God said this statement before your quoted 13th century. Modern or modernism does not have an assurance in God’s kingdom. It’s not about modern or pre-modern. We follow the teachings of Christ, and not modern Christ.

Of course it doesn't. I never, ever claimed that. You supplied that interpretation. But how we understanding things, how we interpret things, are in fact directly affected by these factors. I am simply saying that the modern context allows a deeper, wider, and fuller understanding than a mythic and magical one, a premodern context. But each, and all, have full access to Spirit. How the mind interprets it, is in fact a matter of growth, and a matter of depth.

The key is to follow the will of God rather than men or mystical things.

Again, nonsense in saying "mystical things". God is mystical. One should hope you have access to the mystical! Otherwise your understanding of God is simply based in your mental contexts, and nothing more.

Again, I want to clarify. I did’nt say you are satanic or you worship Satan or Satanist.

You constantly infer I am communicating in meditation with "a spirit" and not God. You say explicitly I am opening myself to the devil. What conclusion other than that should I take from this?

 

[Yoshua]

Psychology is the study of the human psyche, as physiology is the study of the human physique. You're thinking of psychiatry, which deals with mental illness. Psychology isnt't about "fixing broken people." It's about studying the mind, how peole think, and how they act. Psychology is useful in the study of how and why people think theologically. Psychiatry isn't. Psychiatry is more suited to the discovery and treatment of mental illness -- neuroses and psychoses.

Hi Sojourner,

We can reconcile with these facts, here are the facts about psychology. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154874.php

Psychology is the study of behavior and the mind.

We are unable to physically see mental processes such as thoughts, memories, dreams and perceptions.

Clinical psychology is an integration science, theory, and practice.

Cognitive psychology investigates internal mental processes such as how people think, perceive and communicate.

Developmental psychology is the study of how a person develops psychologically over the course of their life.

Evolutionary psychology examines how psychological adjustments during evolution have affected human behavior.

Forensic psychology is the application of psychology to the process of criminal investigation and the law.

Health psychology observes how health can be influenced by behavior, biology and social context.

Neuropsychology examines the how the brain functions in relation to different behaviors and psychological processes.

Occupational psychology investigates how people perform at work in order to develop an understanding of how organizations function.

Social psychology is a study of how the behavior and thoughts of people are influenced by the actual or implied presence of others.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I asked the question because you said psychology shouldn't become a doctrine. How could it become one, is the question? It's like saying psychology shouldn't become a chocolate chip cookie. How could it? How do you imagine one can possibly make psychology a doctrine? How would anyone do that? Psychology is a scientific study of the human mind. It has nothing to do with doctrines, tenets of faith, or chocolate chip cookies.

Oh wait, I think I get what you mean. You mean we should not listen to what science says and let our religious beliefs override any other understanding about ourselves. Am I right?

Hi Windwalker,

Not really. It should be balance in terms with religious beliefs and psychology. It can’t be Jesus’ teachings override by psychology or science.

Yes, you are saying that. You believe if what you believe religiously, how you think based upon faith is challenged by any source other than the Bible, you should ignore it. You should never believe science because you have the answers to everything through your religious beliefs and doctrines. Right?

No. it’s not that kind of situation. I believe in science but not dictating or contradicting the doctrine of Christ.

I think it is in fact of primary concern. Most definitely. How one thinks about and imagines God, how one's faith operates in themselves, and every single facet of the religious life and beliefs and practices directly influences and is influenced by their psychological makeup! Nothing escapes it. So it is to me essential and critical to look at it and understand it and work with it. No doubt in my mind at all on this. In fact in order to grow spiritually, you need to address the mind itself, which is psychology. And I can point to the Bible that even it's authors understood this, even though they had no scientific research about psychology. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he". That's psychology.

Ok. You said that “how one’s faith operates in themselves, and every single facet of religious life and beliefs, and practices directly influences.” Now, is your statement defined my belief status or not?

This is where you are completely disadvantaged in your understanding of things. It absolutely plays a role in what you believe, or who or what you believe in. Culture, for one, largely dictates our religious choices, and culture programs our minds to think and act and make choices within a set of parameters. Like the old saying goes, Muslim parents raise Muslim children, Christians Christians, and so forth.

Initially, yes. Culture largely played a big role in spirituality. That is true. But you forget one thing that is truth outside the culture, that man is not limited and forbidden to believe a true deity. There are Muslim’s who became a Christian, or vice versa. Same as Gentile who become a follower of Christ.

I love your magical twisting of what I said to say that I think ALL religions and beliefs and faiths around the world are based on paranoia. Never have I said that, nor do I for one second believe that. What I DO mean however is the type of beliefs you are your friend in this thread espouse, the sorts of demon-conspiracy behind all other beliefs and practices other than those which you hold to, are in fact deeply paranoid and disturbed. Yes, your views are spawned out of and driven by paranoid, conspiracy-theory minded thinking. When asked for substantive support, what is offered is citations from the conspiracy-minded think tanks.

Is that a "personality disorder"? I'm not willing to say that, but I am willing to say it's certainly a cognitive dysfunction. It's not healthy, as it's views cannot be supported rationally. It's fear-based. And it's effects are unhealthy.

Then, it is like you’re saying the disciples of Christ has cognitive dysfunction because they should make their own choice rather following Jesus with fear, and they are not healthy. That is equivalent to what you’re saying right here. Additionally, how about Moses, Abraham, Paul, Isaiah etc..?

Nope. But how one interprets "God's will", and what it means to be obedient to that can in fact be deeply disturbed. Not in the majority of cases, but clearly there are fringe groups who believe all manner of freakish and even dangerous things about "God's will".

How one interprets “God’s will”? to be obedient can be disturbing? It looks like you interpreted that the disciples are not obedient to Christ. Where did you get your principle of obedience?

I'm not "paranoid", nor even fearful in the very least to look at the Bible. I know it intimately and quote from it all the time. I am very well versed in it, and find it fascinating on many levels. I simply have a rational understanding of it. That rational mind is anything but paranoid. It's inquisitve and curious. The exact opposite of those who bury their faces in the Bible and refuse to acknowledge things like psychology, anthropology, sociology, and the like as having any influence whatsoever in how we choose to believe the things we do religiously. To, who is inquisitive and curious here, and who is not? The one that is not, is the one rapt in fear.

Me? Who does not believe in psychology? I believed in psychology, but not to the point of absorbing man’s interpretation of psychology attached to religious system like Wilbur. I may seek and absorb a lot of man-made studies about all “logy” starting from letter “A” but not to the point of distorting/twisting the word of God. I don’t think you’re sensitive and have a knowledge on how to reconcile between scientific studies and the Scriptures.

Nonsense talk You don't understand that meditation practices is a discipline. It requires making a concerted effort to follow through with them. It's very, very easy to make excuses to yourself and just sit on the computer typing out responses like this on the Internet! (Such as I am doing right now). Whenever I fall back from my self-discipline and skip my practices, it's like not exercising your body. After awhile your muscle tone gets flabby. It's not a matter of fear to choose meditation practice, it's a matter of knowing what is healthy to do, versus just being lazy. Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understand of what you criticize.

Oh. Come on. That is a logical thing to think about. I did not say you discard all your spiritual disciplines. The point of using “fear” as the key of hindering mystical practices/man-made is not a valid reason. Christians followed Christ not because of fear, Jesus assured that He will be with us forever by sending the Holy Spirit—the Spirit of truth. The Scriptures also quoted several assurances and protection passages for all believers--as greater is the one who is in us; no one can snatch us; abide in His word so the Father will loved us etc….How could you insert “fear” with those assurance from the Holy Spirit?

Again, your lack of understanding of the human mind leads to incorrect assumptions such as you make here. It's not a matter of fear for them, it's a matter of the ideas don't fit within their cultural frameworks. I know a bit about Buddhism. I find a great deal of truth and insight in it. But I personally won't become a Buddhist because frankly, it's rooted in another culture and one as an outsider to it, I could never fully glean its full meaning and understanding. You have to be raised in it, where its symbols are embedded in all you are within the culture from childhood on. That's not to mean it doesn't work for "converts" to it, but it's not the same as being born into it.

And that's the point. It's not "fear" why people don't change religions. The variables are far, far, far more complex than that.

My assumption and examples are correct whether you like it or not. I also once a believer of Buddha, and I feared to surrender my life to Christ due to spiritual discipline which I’m aware during that time, I was in my high school years studied in a Protestant school. Let’s face it. I cannot do my own will in pleasure or vices anymore when I became a follower of Christ. That is actually fear of facing the truth that is in Christ. That is following in the obedience with Christ.

That is exactly the practical reason why you could not become a Buddhist because it is rooted in another culture, but inside there is still fear. It can be fear of adapting others beliefs, or it may result to confusion in spirituality.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

You don't try to cast out the demons in your church? When do you say go to a psychologist instead? Do you, ever?

Of course, there is an investigation or spiritual inventory that you should look at. It is not just (always) casting out demons. It is logical though that if we found out that it is demonically possessed, then you do deliverance with them. Other churches have their own clinics, they have a medical specialist. I believed a person should not seek a dentist if he/she is proven demonically possessed.

Same difference. They believe they are obeying God's will in not going to movies.

Let look at it as their conviction toward God. We can’t question their conviction on how they view movies. Practically, there are no restrictions in watching movies (but as rated by film makers). If somebody is watching a life lesson film or spiritual film, we may not judge them as violating God. This is a minor activity to be counted as a violating God’s commandment. God is looking at the heart of a person, and what you do for his kingdom.

And there's no other explanation for these things, these behaviors you have seen other than demons? What about the human mind? What about psychological reasons?

As for me, which I’m not a psychologist. Their behavior should be applied in discipline from pursuing to have faith in God rather than stay immature with God’s word. This is how we assist those who are weak in their faith. Evil knows who are weak and strong in faiths. He knows who they will attack and not. Their mind should be focused more on the promises of God, knowledge of the word of God is the primary concern for all those affected by evil one. They should wear the armor of God as stated in the book of Ephesians.
The mind of Christ means they have the same spirit as the Spirit of Christ, so they will be protected from it.

For psychological reasons, in the first place why bring it to psychological if they are truly existing?

No. But understanding it, working with it, will in fact help you grow spiritually. That's what I believe.

There is a reason I like the term 'psychospiritual'. The two are very much connected to each other. If you are hanging onto hidden things in the mind, they will directly affect you spiritually. Absolutely, I believe that. I would love to really open the door on that discussion in relation to the whole value of "forgiveness" in Christian faith. That forgiveness, directly goes into the things we hold inside our minds, which affect our heart, which affect our abilities to grow spiritually and live a liberated life. Absolutely it's essential for spiritual growth. But to come to God? No, we come as we are, every time. Each time, we learn that we can love ourselves. Eventually, we actually believe it.

How can you value forgiveness if forgiveness came from God? How can you reconcile the forgiveness in Christian faith if you don’t agree to come to God? Who’s God you are seeking, self-God?

There is a difference with dependency of oneself and dependency with God. You can help yourself by your own physical effort, but not to the point of forgiving one another for no human was born having a forgiving heart. No one.

Loving oneself is good as caring your God-given body, and that love is not your own love, it is coming from the God who is love.

This is a step forward. I just don't believe any are actually demon possessed, regardless of how freakish their behaviors are. I believe people call psychological and psychiatric disorders demons and spirits because of a lack of understanding of the human mind, like saying a flu bug is because of an evil and vexing spirit. It's a pre-scientific term for abnormal behavior.

You may have a point on that especially in thinking process which leads to a more positive outlook in life. God also lead his followers to have a positive outlook in life because depression is the enemy behind it. Positive thinking is by no means making it as dominating in religious perspective—as all things can be done because of your mind power and positive will. This is what New Agers did for the Law of attraction principles. All positive things should be coursed through the will of God, his assurance and protection, and not merely by one’s own effort.

Fine, but I'd be careful not to say that when a surgeon removes a tumor from someone that God did a miracle. Thank God for doctors! Don't ignore science. Thank God for science. Thank God for reason. Thank God for modern medicine. Thank God for psychology. Thank God for modern studies in comparative religions. Thank God for anything that helps us to be healthier and more whole. Thank God for progress!

From my perspective, all things work together for good to those who love him. At Romans 8:28,
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” For Christians, anything that happened within the life of a person has to do with God because they surrendered their will to Him as the controller of His life.

Of course it is, and yes I can. Paul did.

How?

Again, nonsense in saying "mystical things". God is mystical. One should hope you have access to the mystical! Otherwise your understanding of God is simply based in your mental contexts, and nothing more.

Yes. But we don’t have the same perspective about mystical or supernatural. Mine is always come from God, and not man seeking a mystical.

You constantly infer I am communicating in meditation with "a spirit" and not God. You say explicitly I am opening myself to the devil. What conclusion other than that should I take from this?

The practice is more that I’m concern and not you as personal. I’m rather expose the deed of the darkness so people may see the light.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

Not really. It should be balance in terms with religious beliefs and psychology. It can’t be Jesus’ teachings override by psychology or science.

Then what is the argument? I have always and ever argued for balance. You are agreeing here now, which should for all intents and purposes bring this discussion to a close. But I suspect in the next breath you're going to waffle on this again. What you have been doing throughout every single page of this 70 page discussion is to say everything you believe, think, and practice has to conform to what you read in the Bible. You have not be talking balance whatsoever previous to this statement here.

Again, the teachings of Jesus are not independently understood without looking at your own mind. Looking at your own mind will change how you understand truth itself, and how you understand Jesus' teaching. No getting around this, despite all your protestations and twists of logic.

No. it’s not that kind of situation. I believe in science but not dictating or contradicting the doctrine of Christ.

So you are saying if what science teaches contradicts what you believe Jesus teaches, you should reject science and not try to balance understanding in any sort of way that informs each other? You're saying instead to weigh them in the balance, and if the Bible says something the Bible will always tip the balance to itself. In other words, there is no balance at all, but simply judgment where your religious belief wins every time. Am I correct?

Ok. You said that “how one’s faith operates in themselves, and every single facet of religious life and beliefs, and practices directly influences.” Now, is your statement defined my belief status or not?

I have no idea what you are asking. Your phrasing is not clear.

Initially, yes. Culture largely played a big role in spirituality. That is true. But you forget one thing that is truth outside the culture, that man is not limited and forbidden to believe a true deity. There are Muslim’s who became a Christian, or vice versa. Same as Gentile became a follower of Christ.

Well, this is a small acknowledgement on your part of the role of culture, but you are mistaken to think that drops away when you choose to believe in something outside yourself. It does not in any way shape or form drop away. It is always there, always influencing how you see, understand, and interpret every single thing you look at and believe.

Then, it is like you’re saying the disciples of Christ has cognitive dysfunction because they should make their own choice rather followed Jesus with fear, and they are not healthy.

It's amazing to watch how you twist things I say into such convoluted knots! No, I am not saying the disciples of Christ have a cognitive dysfunction. I believe the majority do not. I do believe however the garbage you regurgitate show one however. Most believers don't buy into the paranoid conspiracy theory nonsense you repeat.

And your idea of following with fear, does not reflect what my idea of it is, which in my and most everyone else's mind means reverence and respect. And following with fear, even if that is 'frightened and afraid" as in your world, has nothing to do with the paranoia I'm talking about which comes out of the conspiracy theory think tanks you get your beliefs out of.

Paranoia goes beyond simply fear into distorted ideas about reality. It's fear as part of one's psychological makeup and cognitive functioning; people spying on you, watching your every move, out to get you, etc. All of those are present in your views of the nature of spiritual life. It's anything but freedom from fear, which the spiritual is. Paranoia does not reflect being a disciple of Christ. It's a dysfunction.

How one interprets “God’s will”? to be obedient can be disturbing? It looks like you interpreted that the disciples is not obedient to Christ. Where did you get your principle of obedience?
Me? Who does not believe in psychology? I believed in psychology, but not to the point of absorbing man’s interpretation of psychology attached to religious system like Wilbur. I may seek and absorb a lot of man-made studies about all “logy” starting from letter “A” but not to the point of distorting/twisting the word of God. I don’t think you’re sensitive and have a knowledge on how to reconcile between scientific studies and the Scriptures.

Like I said, you are not balanced at all. You override anything that challenges your beliefs with the claim your beliefs are authoritative through magically saying, "They're not my words, but scripture". You're self-deceived.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course, there is an investigation or spiritual inventory that you should look at. It is not just (always) casting out demons. It is logical though that if we found out that it is demonically possessed, then you do deliverance with them. Other churches have their own clinics, they have a medical specialist. I believed a person should not seek a dentist if he/she is proven demonically possessed.

And are your demon doctors well enough knowledgeable of the medical sciences to rule out all other natural causes before diagnosing them as supernaturally possessed by dark spirits? Or do they first send them to their primary physician and wait until they get a referral from them before performing an exorcism? What is the DSM for a demonic possession diagnosis in order to bill the insurance companies for their services? Are demon doctors covered by insurance, or is it an elective procedure the patient must pay for out of pocket through additional offerings, or is it covered underneath services rendered through regular tithing?

 

[Windwalker]

Let look at it as their conviction toward God. We can’t question their conviction on how they view movies. Practically, there are no restrictions in watching movies (but as rated by film makers).

Nor are there any restrictions against contemplative prayer anywhere in scripture.

If somebody is watching a life lesson film or spiritual film, we may not judge them as violating God.

But otherwise you do judge them? Tsk, tsk, tsk. That's against scripture. But you've been told you're doing that to us all along. I know knowing judging another man's servant is against scripture isn't going mean anything to you as you feel justified somehow anyway.

This is a minor activity to be counted as a violating God’s commandment. God is looking at the heart of a person, and what you do for his kingdom.

Perhaps you should apply that same logic to us? Maybe you should drop this whole thread rather than insist you know what is truth instead of letting each person stand before God who judges according to the heart, instead of judging in accord with whether it matches how you believe? Doing otherwise would be hypocritical of you, right?

How can you value forgiveness if forgiveness came from God? How can you reconcile the forgiveness in Christian faith if you don’t agree to come to God? Who’s God you are seeking, self-God?

What make you think I don't see forgiveness as coming from God? Are you judging me? More importantly, do you ignore everything we post?

There is a difference with dependency of oneself and dependency on God.

Yes there is. Do you understand what that difference is?

You can help yourself by our own physical effort, but not to the point of forgiving one another for no human was born having a forgiving heart. No one.

Well, that's bull****, of course. Forgiveness is within us, because we are created in the image of God. Absolute forgiveness comes from God. Through God, we can forgive ourselves. Very few actually do. It's harder that you realize, lie as you may to yourself. But you wouldn't know how subtle that is, because you never look inside your own heart. It's there that you will see where you lie to yourself, and there you will see how you do not accept yourself. If you never look within like this, you live in self-deception, not standing naked before God.

That's why folks like you resist meditation. That's why they fear it and imagine all sorts of boogie-man reasons to avoid it. Because they are afraid to see themselves this way. All the arguments you present against are completely irrational, betraying that deep-seeded fear of confronting our own self-loathing, or own guilt and shame. This is why people fear meditation. They fear seeing themselves naked before God. You say it's fear that keeps of from not meditating. I say it's fear that keeps us from doing it. I know what I am talking about. You don't.

Loving oneself is good as caring your God-given body, and that love is not your own love, it is coming from God who is love.

Loving oneself as God loves and accepts them is something very few realize. And how can they when they spend all their time looking outside themselves? God see you in your secret places. If you never go into those secret places, you don't know what God knows of you, and allows you to let go of, if you first acknowledge it. But you can't acknowledge what can't see, what you cover up through simply believing it's all just magically taken care of for you. No, if you don't see what is there, you haven't truly known forgiveness, and cannot forgive yourself. It's one thing to say God forgives me, it's another to know it.

 

[sojourner]

Hi Sojourner,

We can reconcile with these facts, here are the facts about psychology. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154874.php

Psychology is the study of behavior and the mind.

We are unable to physically see mental processes such as thoughts, memories, dreams and perceptions.

Clinical psychology is an integration science, theory, and practice.

Cognitive psychology investigates internal mental processes such as how people think, perceive and communicate.

Developmental psychology is the study of how a person develops psychologically over the course of their life.

Evolutionary psychology examines how psychological adjustments during evolution have affected human behavior.

Forensic psychology is the application of psychology to the process of criminal investigation and the law.

Health psychology observes how health can be influenced by behavior, biology and social context.

Neuropsychology examines the how the brain functions in relation to different behaviors and psychological processes.

Occupational psychology investigates how people perform at work in order to develop an understanding of how organizations function.

Social psychology is a study of how the behavior and thoughts of people are influenced by the actual or implied presence of others.

Thanks

Your point?

 

[Yoshua]

Your point?

My point is to refer on these definition rather than debating what is psychology.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Then what is the argument? I have always and ever argued for balance. You are agreeing here now, which should for all intents and purposes bring this discussion to a close. But I suspect in the next breath you're going to waffle on this again. What you have been doing throughout every single page of this 70 page discussion is to say everything you believe, think, and practice has to conform to what you read in the Bible. You have not be talking balance whatsoever previous to this statement here.

Hopefully, we are agreeing in the case of the general point of view as “balance.” I don’t know yet if that will cover the detail of your point of view/concepts for religious belief and psychology.

Of course, Windwalker. I should adhere with the Bible. As I said, the discussion may reconcile and meet together but I’m really unsure with each details when addressed and scrutinized.

Again, the teachings of Jesus are not independently understood without looking at your own mind. Looking at your own mind will change how you understand truth itself, and how you understand Jesus' teaching. No getting around this, despite all your protestations and twists of logic.

Oh. Starting with this one. I don’t think I have to agree to look in my mind. What would I get from looking it to my mind? Can you give your insight about this? My mind is fed with the word of God because this served as our guide and spiritual food. Apart from God, we are nothing.

We already discussed how we understand Christ’s teachings before, Isn’t it? My approach to Christ’s teachings is by understanding its literal sense as in reading the Scriptures in what was written. Secondly, the principles of interpretation—as diligently studying the Scriptures in the right context with several tools of interpretation. Thirdly, dependency (not of self) with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So, is it true that you agreed Psychology and science should not override the teachings of Christ?

So you are saying if what science teaches contradicts what you believe Jesus teaches, you should reject science and not try to balance understanding in any sort of way that informs each other? You're saying instead to weigh them in the balance, and if the Bible says something the Bible will always tip the balance to itself. In other words, there is no balance at all, but simply judgment where your religious belief wins every time. Am I correct?

No. It is not my belief. We may check it out if science contradicts with the Scriptures. Scriptures are not my words. We believed the Scriptures are inspired word of God. We may try to check it out, if you can give me a scientific concept or example with Scriptural support. Then, we can assess how “balance” played in religious belief.

I have no idea what you are asking. Your phrasing is not clear.

I think it is in fact of primary concern. Most definitely. How one thinks about and imagines God, how one's faith operates in themselves, and every single facet of the religious life and beliefs and practices directly influences and is influenced by their psychological makeup! Nothing escapes it. So it is to me essential and critical to look at it and understand it and work with it. No doubt in my mind at all on this. In fact in order to grow spiritually, you need to address the mind itself, which is psychology. And I can point to the Bible that even it's authors understood this, even though they had no scientific research about psychology. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he". That's psychology.By Windalker

I’m asking you if your concept of psychology (as stated above) by addressing the mind itself is the same concept and already applied with my belief as evangelical?

It's amazing to watch how you twist things I say into such convoluted knots! No, I am not saying the disciples of Christ have a cognitive dysfunction. I believe the majority do not. I do believe however the garbage you regurgitate show one however. Most believers don't buy into the paranoid conspiracy theory nonsense you repeat.

And your idea of following with fear, does not reflect what my idea of it is, which in my and most everyone else's mind means reverence and respect. And following with fear, even if that is 'frightened and afraid" as in your world, has nothing to do with the paranoia I'm talking about which comes out of the conspiracy theory think tanks you get your beliefs out of.

Paranoia goes beyond simply fear into distorted ideas about reality. It's fear as part of one's psychological makeup and cognitive functioning; people spying on you, watching your every move, out to get you, etc. All of those are present in your views of the nature of spiritual life. It's anything but freedom from fear, which the spiritual is. Paranoia does not reflect being a disciple of Christ. It's a dysfunction.

I don’t see any unhealthy response to those “watching your every move” especially when God is really and truly watching you, for He knows your every move, your past and future actions. Why we would mind the “dysfunction” if God assures He is taking care of His followers? Can you explain why the disciples of Christ are considered “dysfunction”?

You have a different view of freedom in Christ. I haven’t see a concept of yours similar with the disciples of Christ and Paul.

Like I said, you are not balanced at all. You override anything that challenges your beliefs with the claim your beliefs are authoritative through magically saying, "They're not my words, but scripture". You're self-deceived.

Oh yes. This is about authority. That is true, God’s word has authority. There is no authority for those who did not believe in the inspired word of God. Of course that will be the case. God is the one who dictates His love upon us, and not we dictates our love to Him. This is the same as God’s command should be followed in obedience, and not man’s desires or command should be followed by God.

How can I be deceiving myself if I followed Christ’s command?

He said in John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Is this a very difficult statement to comprehend, and considered a “dysfunction” from following His words?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

And are your demon doctors well enough knowledgeable of the medical sciences to rule out all other natural causes before diagnosing them as supernaturally possessed by dark spirits? Or do they first send them to their primary physician and wait until they get a referral from them before performing an exorcism? What is the DSM for a demonic possession diagnosis in order to bill the insurance companies for their services? Are demon doctors covered by insurance, or is it an elective procedure the patient must pay for out of pocket through additional offerings, or is it covered underneath services rendered through regular tithing?

God may give gift of discernment, as well as guidance of the Holy Spirit. By the way, your statement does not apply (mostly) to the medical. Doctors usually does not believed in some diagnosis as spiritual in nature. They never recommend and refer their patients to a pastor or a priest. This is our case in our place.

This is my analogy regarding this issues: if you bring the patient to a neurologist, the neurologist will tell you that he has a nervous system disorder. For cardiologist, he will tell you that he should watch his diet, and do a regular exercise to prevent a heart disorder. For ophthalmologist, he will tell you that the patient has eye disorder and so on with the other doctors.

Therefore, a diagnosis that cannot be treated by the doctors may probably has to do with spiritual. Medical may usually come to the picture when their physical body was affected by spiritual. Spiritual inventory and investigation is a primary priority to diagnose his/her background, spiritual activities, connecting facts in his/her childhood, involvements, and other information in relation to spiritual.

I don’t have any idea about DSM and the insurance. For evangelical, the pastor with layman/members (in deliverance ministry) are usually the right people to conduct deliverance. The member of the church (patient) does not require to pay.

The kingdom of God is not for money making ministry as some may doing this for greed.

Thanks