What is Contemplative Christianity?

[Yoshua]

"Be still and know that I am God." -- Ps. 46:10. Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." -- Jn. 14:9. So, if Jesus reveals the Father, and we are to be still and know... doesn't that place Jesus squarely within the stillness, or silence?

You have explain more about your term "silence"? What it has to do with Jesus to reveal the Father and the word "silence"?
It looks like inserting a term that does not connect.

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

How do you do the meditation? can you explain it in details?
Maybe we both have the same word (meditation) but different in application.

I sit quietly, breathe deeply, and listen with intention.

Can you prove it with scripture?

Can I "prove" what with scripture?

The "Be still" in Hebrew text means "relax."

Do you have a working knowledge of Hebrew?
In what sense is a person who is sitting quietly not "relaxed?"

"He leads me beside still waters and restores my soul" may served as the Lord refreshed us, but what keep refreshing us? The promised Holy Spirit who guided us.

The Hebrew texts have no concept for Holy Spirit in the NT sense you mean here.

"The Spirit prays for us in sighs too deep for words." Absolutely! The Holy Spirit is a person, He is God same as Jesus who is God prayed for us. He prayed for our weaknesses as we are in corrupted flesh. We need the help of the Spirit to magnify Christ in our lives.

Riiiight, and how do we hear that "sigh" that is "too deep for words" and connect with it? By being still and listening for it.

Can you review your question to me? I think you believe that all is God, this is why I answered you this. I already have encountered God, and I know Him. I'm asking you to explain what is your God.

God is God. There is no "mine" or "yours."

My encounter of God and your encounter is not the same.

If you have encountered God, then, yes, it's the same thing. If you have to ask "how do you know when you've encountered God," then you haven't encountered God, because when you encounter God, there's no guesswork left.

Can you explain it with your encounter "deeply" with the Spirit?

"Deeply," as in, "wholly."

Yes. I read it and their way of contemplating is different from the evangelical practice.

Why? Why is the "evangelical practice" different? Why is there no continuity on the part of evangelicals with the rest of the Body of Christ? Don't you find that ... weird that evangelicals are not "in one accord" with the rest of the saints?

I rather look at Jesus Christ than those Desert Fathers and St. Francis of Assisi.

Why? Do you not see Christ in them?

I believe when we seek God's kingdom, we seek because we are His followers, to obey what he wants from us and not finding our true self, the higher self by our own means.

So, meditating to seek Christ is "using our own means," but reading the bible (written by people and published by people) is not "using our own means?"

If Jesus Christ is only the Truth, why we divert our minds to use our own effort?

Meditation isn't "diverting" our minds; it's "focusing" our minds.

I believe that we should be dependent on the Holy Spirit's guidance.

That's what meditation does; depends on the guidance of Holy Spirit.

Yes, I prayed daily by calling Him Father-God, praising His name, giving thanks for what He has done, asking my needs, protection from the evil one and end in the name of Jesus. I don't have any physical ritual or anything that adds to praying.

Meditation, then, is prayer.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus is not like us. His divinity was added a human flesh to accomplished a purpose. He is the Son of God, the Messiah. I firmly believed that we need Jesus to counter against Satan.

Thanks

Hmmm. The bible tells us that Jesus is in our form, is one of us, is like us in every way.

 

[sojourner]

How do you listen to Him? When you sit down, do you entertain a voice speaking to you? Do you hold a Bible while sitting?
How?

How do you listen for anyone, or anything? By being fully present in the moment. That's what meditation does; brings you fully into the moment quietly so you can hear that "still, small voice."

 

[sojourner]

Did Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer to breathe when praying? I don't see Jesus emphasized "breathing" in prayer? Jesus is more concern on the salvation and protection of His disciples then.

Thanks

Sooo... what? We should hold our breath?

 

[sojourner]

So many of those involved with contemplative practices quote Psalm repeatedly, out of context, to endorse their mystical form of meditation or silencing the mind, but this verse is not about meditation or prayer at all! It is a command and reminder to God's people ISREAL who were afraid in the midst of a war situation to be still, calm and stop fearing and remember that they KNOW the Sovereign LORD who will take care of them.

And when we quiet ourselves in meditation, we're quieting our fears and the things we constantly battle in our daily lives, in order to know God and to know that God is our life.
What's the problem here?

Bible Interpretation 101 teaches that every text without a context is pretext. Extracting Psalm 46:10 to be an endorsement of meditative-listening prayer is just such a pretext. Here’s why.

First, the injunction to “Be still” must be understood in the milieu it was uttered. The Psalmist addressed a cosmos in crisis. The crisis imperiled the creation (vv. 1-3); threatened the city (vv. 4-7); and besieged the country (vv. 8-11). In the crisis with their world falling apart, the people were afraid (v. 2).

Second, the verb “Be still” (Hebrew, rapah) is used 46 times in the Old Testament with meanings everywhere from describing laziness to ordering relaxation. Though the majority of versions translate the injunction “Be still”, other meanings are “Cease striving ” (NASB), “Be quiet” (NCV), “Desist” (Young’s), or “Calm down” (CEV). In no biblical usage or context does the Hebrew verb enjoin God’s people to meditate or practice contemplative or listening prayer. Rather, believers are to rest and trust in God."

Read more: http://herescope.blogspot.com/2012/09/be-still.html

I spent a number of years in seminary earning my Master's in biblical studies, learning how to exegete the texts. I don't think a web site is going to shed any light on that subject.
I don't see how the various meanings of "be still" is any different from what we do in meditation.
Humanity is in crisis of sin, or separation from God, which imperils the creation. When we are in sin, our world falls apart. Meditation helps the sin to not overcome us.
What you're arguing here is exactly what happens in meditation.

 

[Windwalker]

Hi Windwalker,

There is nowhere to be found that Christ is SILENCE. Christ is PEACE maybe much nearer to the Scripture.

Thanks

What do you mean nowhere to be found? Have you ever experienced God? It's a metaphor to describe that Peace. That Peace is stillness, Silence, an absence of turmoil and fear, and so forth. I give it a capital S because it is Absolute in its nature. God is Infinite. Resting in that Infinite is a refuge from the turmoil and fear. It is Silence Supreme. I am allowed to choose whatever words I may to describe my own experience. I could come up with many words. So does anyone who speaks from direct experience.

 

[sassysam29]

What is "God's word?" We've already determined that the bible hasn't always been with us, and it has changed form over time and is, therefore, not absolute. So, "God's word" must be something other than the bible, if God's word is absolute. John tells us that the "word became flesh." The bible certainly isn't flesh. So, we're left with the question, "What is God's word?" Additionally, we have to ask, "How is the word disseminated to us?" If the word is absolute, the disseminating vehicle must also be absolute. The most absolute thing I know of is the ground of Being, which we are taught to access through the interior work of the spiritual disciplines of meditation and contemplation.

I have spent some time learning about much that has been discussed here.....so many things mentioned I don't understand or know about, so it actually encourages me to read and dig. First off, I briefly learned about the desert mothers and fathers. although the history is fascinating, there wasn't anything extremely convincing that we should adopt their practices. I believe that culture and superstitions were highly influential in forming their philosophies (maybe lack of water too haha), I'm sure there's so much more to know, but at short glance, this was my opinion. Again....JMO . What was even cooler than my brief history lesson was the fact I spent a lot of time reading the scriptures. You know, just asking God to help me understand things that I might be fearful of or closed off to because of stereotyping or my own willful self (which can be very rebellious). I sincerely asked for direction or affirmation. There's not enough time or space to expound but you challenged me to sincerely ask God, what exactly is your word? From the creation of the universe which was spoken into place, I became more and more convinced of its importance. Then to acts where the gospel was being presented to the Jews and they were able to receive the truth with readiness of mind because they were given to the study of the scriptures, over and over and over, study, read, meditate, take heed, prove, yada yada......the word became flesh and dwelt among us....to
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
The word was God.

Then I reread the transfiguration and imagined what they had just witnessed.......unbelievable glory had just been unveiled (partially) before them, yet a voice sounds from the heavens...

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So, I'm sincerely asking you, what is a More sure word? If it is not the scriptures, what is it?

 

[Windwalker]

Hi,

If you have the fruit of the Spirit (in you) such as peace (that you mentioned a while ago) from the promised Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, why you need to quiet your mind?
Are the fruit of the Spirit manifested in your life, or it is not enough--for you to choose another way (method) as Quieting the mind?

Oh this is easy. I've tried to explain this many times before. You can in fact suppress the Spirit. You can deny it. You can "grieve" it, as Paul says. When meditation does it helps you learn how to allow God, to allow the Spirit, for you to hear Spirit, to be sensitive to it, and so forth. It trains you how to see it, recognize it, and how to allow God who is in you to become manifest in you. And the result of this is that very transformation from glory to glory into the image of Christ, to where you become Christ in the world. Christ in you. This is in fact what surrender is. It is dying to your own egoic self-seeking, to seek for God in all things. "I die daily", says Paul. You have to allow God. Don't think for one second you can't suppress it. Spiritual growth is a process. It requires you to do something on your part, and that is learning how to cooperate, to get out of the way, and to allow what is within to transform you. Meditation is the most powerful tool towards that end that exists.

 

[Windwalker]

Heb. 13:8
8. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

As you have mentioned the phrase "path of discipline" here, there is a discipline for every beliefs and that is acceptable. Fear of change? why there should be changes?
The Scripture does not change unless this has been added and remove the scripture.

I'm talking about changes in you! I'm talking about changes in how you think about things as you grow and mature. God changing or not changing has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Do you still believe the same way about God when you were six years old? Or have you grown and changed, matured somewhat over the years? If you haven't, I'd consider that to be a problem.

Deut. 4:2
2. "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

In reality, as you mature, how you understand the meaning of these words will change. My point is people become married to their own ideas about these things and are fearful of changing how they think, because they fear losing their own personal sense of security. They "trust" in their beliefs, to be specific. That is not the same as trusting in God, at all! Faith allows one's beliefs to grow and mature, to change, to deeped, to gain new perspectives from new altitudes, and so forth. As you stand at the top of the mountain looking at the village below, it takes on a new understanding to you. But to those in village below, your report of what you see is not how they see it, and if your perception is seen to threaten their beliefs, they will not listen to you, deny what you say, call you a traitor, and seek to expel you from them.

Again, why are people choosing to tell those who benefit from meditation to stop?

 

[sassysam29]

I'm talking about changes in you! I'm talking about changes in how you think about things as you grow and mature. God changing or not changing has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Do you still believe the same way about God when you were six years old? Or have you grown and changed, matured somewhat over the years? If you haven't, I'd consider that to be a problem.


In reality, as you mature, how you understand the meaning of these words will change. My point is people become married to their own ideas about these things and are fearful of changing how they think, because they fear losing their own personal sense of security. They "trust" in their beliefs, to be specific. That is not the same as trusting in God, at all! Faith allows one's beliefs to grow and mature, to change, to deeped, to gain new perspectives from new altitudes, and so forth. As you stand at the top of the mountain looking at the village below, it takes on a new understanding to you. But to those in village below, your report of what you see is not how they see it, and if your perception is seen to threaten their beliefs, they will not listen to you, deny what you say, call you a traitor, and seek to expel you from them.

Again, why are people choosing to tell those who benefit from meditation to stop?

So we are the village idiots

 

[Windwalker]

Then what is demonic activity to you and what is not demonic activity?

Ah, here comes that conversation. The same things can be understood in multiple ways, which ties into my previous post. It depends on which framework of reference, or symbolic language set someone is using. Some will understand bodily sickness as the result of spiritual warfare, being "afflicted", by a demon or something. In reality it's just a way to talk about it using a mythological framework, one of external forces, magical spirits in the world surrounding us, influencing us, attacking us, etc. Within a rational, modern, scientific-oriented framework these are understood as things such as viruses that attack the body, or mental ailments which affect the mind. "Demonic possession" as once understood as something 'supernatural' and beyond our understanding and control, are understood in a modern framework of understanding as psychiatric disorders.

The mind, especially the subconscious and unconscious mind are 'dark and mysterious places' to us. It is the place of nonverbal, or preverbal mind. That mind is constantly aware of the world around it, feeding up to the conscious mind 'impressions' or images as well. It influences us in our conscious mind in ways we truly do not understand. When I speak about going within in meditation, there are many layers of things going on here. One of which is opening directly to the subconscious mind. This is what is done in psychotherapy with the guidance of a therapist. You will uncover deep, scarey things you have tucked away down there because they were perceived as some point as threatening to you. So as you open that door, you many encounter one of these scarcely monsters under the bed. And their faces can in fact be "demonic" in appearance.

So can those be called "demons"? Sure. Are they supernatural beings outside of us? They are perceived that way by the mind at a certain point of view, but not another. One can relate to them symbolically however one chooses, but the end hope and result is the same. You wish to be freed from the threat of them, right?

When I hear people express misgivings about meditation because it "opens them to demonic possession", what I hear is in fact this either intuitive fear of going within, beyond the barriers of all our self-defense we have constructed to keep those monsters under lock and key, or those who have opened that door and seen those shadows rear their monstrous faces out of the dark at them and caused them to become absolutely terrified, as they were unprepared for such a confrontation. What they fear is this. This "demonic possession" is the fear of losing their own minds! That is what it is. So in a sense, they are correct, albeight using a mythological set of symbols to talk about it with. Then in a rational context, a modern framework of language, that concern can be restated thusly, "Meditation could open you to a psychic break where you become insane.". That is the actual concern being expressed.

Hopefully this makes some sense to you, but I also wanted to talk about this a bit previously for the benefit of others reading who find this talk of demon possession to be too mythological. Meditation is in fact dealing with the mind, and there are pitfalls to be wary of, but also enormous benefits both psychologically and subsequently spiritually. I believe we have to heal the mind, deal with that junk we've repressed and denied in the subconscious in order to move forward spiritually. For sake of discussion, I respond using the language of myth to express these self-same things.

I can go much, much deeper than this, and yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

 

[Windwalker]

How did you come up that the foundation of apostles and prophets and Jesus being the chef cornerstone are misguided and a modern notion of fundamentalism? What should be the foundation?

Thanks

You didn't read everything I said in that post. I said a lineage is 'built upon' the foundation, but fundamentalists want to get rid of any structures above the foundation and have a slab of concrete as the only truth.

 

[Windwalker]

So we are the village idiots

I wouldn't call you an idiot. But if you believe you shouldn't continue to grow, I'd say that's a pretty dumb idea.

 

[sojourner]

You have explain more about your term "silence"? What it has to do with Jesus to reveal the Father and the word "silence"?
It looks like inserting a term that does not connect.

Thanks

If we're too busy with the noise of our own fears and anxieties, how can we possible hear that "still, small voice?"

 

[sojourner]

I have spent some time learning about much that has been discussed here.....so many things mentioned I don't understand or know about, so it actually encourages me to read and dig. First off, I briefly learned about the desert mothers and fathers. although the history is fascinating, there wasn't anything extremely convincing that we should adopt their practices. I believe that culture and superstitions were highly influential in forming their philosophies (maybe lack of water too haha), I'm sure there's so much more to know, but at short glance, this was my opinion. Again....JMO . What was even cooler than my brief history lesson was the fact I spent a lot of time reading the scriptures. You know, just asking God to help me understand things that I might be fearful of or closed off to because of stereotyping or my own willful self (which can be very rebellious). I sincerely asked for direction or affirmation. There's not enough time or space to expound but you challenged me to sincerely ask God, what exactly is your word? From the creation of the universe which was spoken into place, I became more and more convinced of its importance. Then to acts where the gospel was being presented to the Jews and they were able to receive the truth with readiness of mind because they were given to the study of the scriptures, over and over and over, study, read, meditate, take heed, prove, yada yada......the word became flesh and dwelt among us....to
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
The word was God.

Then I reread the transfiguration and imagined what they had just witnessed.......unbelievable glory had just been unveiled (partially) before them, yet a voice sounds from the heavens...

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So, I'm sincerely asking you, what is a More sure word? If it is not the scriptures, what is it?

You might pick up this book and read it: A New Harmony: the Spirit, the Earth, and the Human Soul by J. Philip Newell.

 

[sassysam29]

You might pick up this book and read it: A New Harmony: the Spirit, the Earth, and the Human Soul by J. Philip Newell.

I will look into it but I really would like to hear your answer to my question. Are you evading

 

[sassysam29]

Can someone tell me where my "drafts" go?

 

[sojourner]

I will look into it but I really would like to hear your answer to my question. Are you evading

The word isn't written on any page. it's a Holy Sound or Vibration. That's why I pointed you to the book.

 

[Windwalker]

Can someone tell me where my "drafts" go?

They are eaten by the digi-demons.