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What is Contemplative Christianity?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes, he is the form of a servant to do the Father’s will of redeeming us from our sins and give us hope of eternal life.
Jesus was fully human. Just as we are fully human.
Then how would you know that small voice is the Holy Spirit’s voice? What is your assurance?
What would make you think that it's not?
I think you are neglecting your knowledge on biblical studies here on this portion about Prayer. If Jesus did not taught us “breathe prayer,” why invent a “breathe prayer” then who told you to do the breathe prayer?
Why invent a building to worship in, when Jesus didn't instruct us to do that? Who taught us to do that? Why use electronic media in worship, when Jesus didn't instruct us to do that? Why read from the bible? Jesus didn't instruct us to do that. Why drive our cars to church? Jesus didn't instruct us to do that, or to use air conditioning, or to use grape juice in communion, or to speak in English. Why do any of those things?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hi wellnamed,

I know Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius warned against false doctrines. How would you reconcile the contemplative practices of meditation and the word “silence” in the practices of Ignatius of Antioch?

Chapter I.-Reason of Writing the Epistle.

Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of the most honourable of all names, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, the constant source of our life, and of faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred, but especially of Jesus and the Father, in whom, if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world, and escape them, we shall enjoy God.


Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of a divine and desirable name, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, "who is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe; " by whose blood ye were redeemed; by whom ye have known God, or rather have been known by Him; in whom enduring, ye shall escape all the assaults of this world: for "He is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able."


Chapter VIII.-Caution Against False Doctrines.


Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.


Be not deceived with strange doctrines, "nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies," and things in which the Jews make their boast. "Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new." For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.


Thanks
I guess Ignatius didn't think contemplative prayer was false doctrine.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Windwalker,

With respect to your long explanation and defining things about possession and psychological, what I understand from you—is you believe in demonic activity, and can be in psychological and thinking.
I think you may need to re-read what I posted. Then ask a question which is more relevant. I am only using the terms "demonic" to describe what is known rationally as psychological in nature because it is the language you are using. It says the same thing, pointing to psychological disturbance, albeight using mythological symbols, such as saying someone is having trouble in their life because they are being "vexed by an evil spirit", whereas rationally it is understood in other terms. I generally don't speak using language such as demonic possession, but for your sake I can use it and mean the same things.

Now, can you enumerate what is demonic from you and not demonic—in Christian practice? (or what makes a Christian practice demonic in nature and not demonic). May I suggest that you tabulate it like this one (below), and if you will write it in narrative form, please underline your answer.
Very well. You're not going to like my answers:

Demonic:
1.) Christian fundamentalism
2.) Legalism
3.) Fearmongering (such as suggesting meditation opens you to Satan)
4.) Anti-intellectualism
5.) Anti-science
6.) All of the above being taught to others as serving God, and that they will go to hell if they doubt it.
7.) FEAR
8.) Telling lies in the name of Christ for the sake of political agendas.
9.) Etc.

Non-demonic:
1.) Anything that produces the Fruit of the Spirit
2.) Anything which promotes love and unity
3.) Anything which teaches and promotes a path to Peace
4.) Prayer, including meditation practice
5.) Open mindedness
6.) Open heartedness
7.) Non-judgmentalism
8.) The Peace of God
9.) Etc.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I know Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius warned against false doctrines.
Certainly, but you would need to do some work to show that Ignatius warned against contemplation as a non-Christian or otherwise deleterious practice, or to show that contemplation is based on some theoretical construct that Ignatius would consider to be a false doctrine. With regard to his epistles (you can find others through the site I linked, or through Google) I would say his warnings about false doctrine focus on several in particular

1. Against Judaism in context the debate about circumcision and other practices of the Jewish Law as Christian requirements.

"Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing. For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace." (To The Mag. 8)
"Now, if anyone preaches Judaism to you, pay no attention to him..." (To The Philadelphians 6)
2. Against docetism in particular or views that deny the death, resurrection or divinity of Christ in general:

"Be deaf, then, to any talk that ignores Jesus Christ, of David’s lineage, of Mary; who was really born, ate; and drank; was really persecuted under Pontius Pilate; was really crucified and died, in the sight of heaven and earth and the underworld. He was really raised from the dead, for his Father raised him, just as his Father will raise us, who believe on him, through Christ Jesus, apart from whom we have no genuine life." (To The Trallians 9)

"For it was for our sakes that he suffered all this, to save us. And he genuinely suffered, as even he genuinely raised himself. It is not as some unbelievers say, that his Passion was a sham. It’s they who are a sham!" (to the Smyrneans 2)
3. Against disunity, disrespect of church authority, and especially schism regarding the Eucharist:

"Try to gather together more frequently to celebrate God’s Eucharist and to praise him. For when you meet with frequency, Satan’s powers are overthrown and his destructiveness is undone by the unanimity of your faith." (to the Ephesians 13)

"I believed, then, that I saw your whole congregation in these people I have mentioned, and I loved you all. Hence I urge you to aim to do everything in godly agreement" (to the Magnesians 6)

"Pay close attention to those who have wrong notions about the grace of Jesus Christ, which has come to us, and note how at variance they are with God’s mind. They care nothing about love: they have no concern for widows or orphans, for the oppressed, for those in prison or released, for the hungry or the thirsty. They hold aloof from the Eucharist and from services of prayer, because they refuse to admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised." (to the Smyrnaeans 6-7)

"Since you are children of the light of truth, flee from schism and false doctrine... Keep away from bad pasturage. Jesus Christ does not cultivate it since the Father did not plant it. Not that I found schism among you — rather had you been sifted. As many as are God’s and Jesus Christ’s, they are on the bishop’s side; and as many as repent and enter the unity of the church, they shall be God’s, and thus they shall live in Jesus Christ’s way." (to the Philadelphians 2-3)
What I do not find in the epistles is anything against contemplative prayer. To be fair, I don't believe any of the epistles has as its aim the goal of explicating in detail the practice of contemplative prayer, although prayer is mentioned often. At best the more mystical themes are alluded to, as I shall present in a moment. But it's misleading to respond to a citation of Ignatius in favor of silence by asserting that he cautioned against false doctrine, because he was entirely unconcerned with contemplation as such a false doctrine.

How would you reconcile the contemplative practices of meditation and the word “silence” in the practices of Ignatius of Antioch?

I think what is needed is probably some clearer exposition of the symbolic meaning of terms like "silence" in the Christian worldview of writers like Ignatius, which is a large undertaking, although I think if you read this thread carefully you can see many different pieces tied together: John's gospel, other later Christian writers on mystical prayer, and etc. You yourself cited a line from Ignatius that is crucial to making sense of these ideas (emphasis added)

"Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of the most honourable of all names, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, the constant source of our life, and of faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred, but especially of Jesus and the Father, in whom, if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world, and escape them, we shall enjoy God." (to the Magnesians 1)
Contemplative prayer, or Christian mysticism in general, is nothing other than the aspiration towards union of the flesh and spirit with Jesus Christ, and with the body of other Christians. The two are taken as sides of a coin, especially in Paul's writings, which Ignatius references:

"You have been initiated into the mysteries with Paul, a real saint and martyr, who deserves to be congratulated. When I come to meet God may I follow in his footsteps, who in all his letters mentions your union with Christ Jesus." (to the Ephesians 12)
The word mysteries is an allusion to Paul's usage of the term, in reference to the mystery of Christ, which is both a reference to the unexpected and somewhat paradoxical nature of the Incarnation in comparison with Paul's previous understanding of a Jewish messiah, but also a reference to the mystery of union with God through Christ, which underlies both Paul and Ignatius' references to union with Christ, or being "in Christ" as we have previously discussed.

In the same vein, it's worth pointing out that Ignatius begins all of his epistles by referring to himself as Ignatius Theophorus. Literally "God bearer", although the English translation I've been citing renders it as "God-inspired". It means one who embodies and manifests the indwelling Spirit and light of God in a special way. This title was later on adopted by the eastern Churches in reference to other saints, and always applied to those who especially cultivated the experiential knowledge of God in contemplative prayer. St. Isaac of Syria, who I quoted before, is one example of a saint referred to as Theophorus in the eastern Christian tradition. Rather than arguing for the scriptural and traditional basis of that view, Ignatius merely cites his title, knowing his audience understands the meaning.

In fact, Ignatius makes reference to the idea that this knowledge goes beyond just the recitation of proper doctrine in his epistles, although he also certainly emphasizes that doctrine and considers this experiential knowledge of the mysteries a thing which requires initiation and circumspection:

"Some there may be who wanted in a human way to mislead me, but the Spirit is not misled, seeing it comes from God. For “it knows whence it comes and whither it goes,” and exposes what is secret." (to the Philadelphians 7)
The passage goes on to speak about the authority of the Spirit residing in the Church, which is a tangent that is worth exploring in relation to the question of authority as raised elsewhere:

"I urge you, do not do things in cliques, but act as Christ’s disciples. When I heard some people saying, “If I don’t find it in the original documents, I don’t believe it in the gospel,” I answered them, “But it is written there.” They retorted, “That’s just the question.” To my mind it is Jesus Christ who is the original documents. The inviolable archives are his cross and death and his resurrection and the faith that came by him. It is by these things and through your prayers that I want to be justified." (to the Philadelphians 8)​

He says more about his mystical experience to the Trallians:

"God has granted me many an inspiration, but I keep my limits, lest boasting should be my undoing. For what I need most at this point is to be on my guard and not to heed flatterers. Those who tell me… they are my scourge. To be sure, I am ever so eager to be a martyr, but I do not know if I deserve to be. Many people have no notion of my impetuous ambition. Yet it is all the more a struggle for me. What I need is gentleness by which the prince of this world is overthrown.

Am I incapable of writing to you of heavenly things? No, indeed; but I am afraid to harm you, seeing you are mere babes. You must forgive me, but the chances are you could not accept what I have to say and would choke yourselves. Even in my own case, it is not because I am a prisoner and can grasp heavenly mysteries, the ranks of the angels, the array of principalities, things visible and invisible — it is not because of all that that I am a genuine disciple as yet. There is plenty missing, if we are not going to be forsaken by God." (Trallians 5)
I think it is important to note here that his cautions are an example of discernment as a spiritual virtue as I have tried to describe it, beyond reflecting a view about the requirement of initiation. Taking all of that as background should I think flesh out a bit more what the word Silence means to Ignatius, although I think also the allusions to John should be kept in mind as well:

"It is better to keep quiet and be real, than to chatter and be unreal. It is a good thing to teach if, that is, the teacher practices what he preaches. There was one such Teacher, who “spoke and it was done”;and what he did in silence is worthy of the Father. He who has really grasped what Jesus said can appreciate his silence. Thus he will be perfect: his words will mean action, and his very silence will reveal his character." (to the Ephesians 15)

"...God is one, and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ, who is his Word issuing from the silence..." (to the Magnesians 8)

"By being silent he can do more than those who chatter. For he is in tune with the commandments as a harp is with its strings. For this reason I bless his godly mind, recognizing its virtue and perfection, and the way he lives in altogether godly composure, free from fitfulness and anger." (to the Philadelphians 1)
What ties these together is a combination of both a practical view about Christian life and virtue, as well as a background mystical theology as I've tried to describe above. Practically speaking, silence is an expression of humility, as in the case of Christ's silence before Pilate, or his own silence about his mystical experiences. It is also connected to the practical value of a detached and composed mind, free from anger. In praising their bishop to the Philadelphians, he emphasizes the virtue of his mindfulness, expressed in silence. Throughout the later tradition, exemplified by the 4th century desert fathers, this composed and detached mindfulness is the fruit of silent prayer and meditation, alongside the cultivation of humility, selflessness, and love.

Theologically, the humility of Christ is an expression of something in the nature of Divinity, reflecting its apophatism (cf. John and what I've said about the invisibility of God) and also its own humility and love, which "makes it rain upon the just as well as the unjust". Ignatius' epistles are mostly pastoral and practical, but the practical advice needs to be understood against the background of his theological views, which clearly include an idea of spiritual authority grounded in the Holy Spirit which is active in a way that goes beyond the literal text of scripture (cf. Philadelphians 8) and which emphasizes the importance of union with Christ (cf. Magnesians 1). Those two main points are already the core of Christian mysticism, in which contemplative prayer is considered the means par excellence of reaching that union.

Now, Ignatius is not canonical, so I expect that one possible retort here is to simply suggest he is wrong. My point in citing him was first of all just to help establish the fact that the kinds of ideas being discussed go back to the very beginning of Christianity, rather than being some modern innovation. I hope that this helps tie those threads together at the very least.

I don't believe the question of authority can be settled purely by appeal to the modern canon of the Bible either (nor by appeal to Ignatius, of course), because for one thing that very canon was established by a Church authority which very much agreed with Ignatius' views, rather than the modern protestant ones, and secondly because the very authority of that Church to establish the canon can't be grounded in the text itself, which makes no such assertion about its own status, and simply can't given the fact that it's a collection of texts written across a long period of time by disparate authors, many of whom did not claim their writings to be scripture at the time. At the very least, it should be recognized that as far back as we are able to adequately assess the views of self-identified Christians, they have held views about the Spirit, about scripture, and about prayer which are well described as mystical and which embrace the idea of contemplation, as well as symbols like Silence.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Windwalker,

I did not get a direct answer from my question. You are introducing your way and insights about (your) contemplative. Why you need to quiet your mind?
I think I've been extremely direct, and extremely clear, each of the several times I've answered this question. Will one more time help? I'm not sure, but maybe it might so I'll give it a go again.

If you're mind is busy thinking about all these other things in your life, how can you hear what is right before you with all that distraction? It's really that simple. Even something as simple as in a relationship with another human being, if you are in your head, thinking about what all these other things that has nothing to do with the person before you who is trying to talk to you, you cannot possibly, actually hear what they are trying to say because you are not actually listening. You are not listening because you are distracted in your own thoughts. If you are able to suspend all that looping dialog you are distracting yourself with, then suddenly a whole world of "other" opens to you. You hear the person talking to you. You deepen your relationship with them as a result. You grow as a person yourself as a result.

When it comes to meditation practice, it is essentially the same thing. You cannot hear or see truly what is right before you, what is trying to communicate with you, if you are busy thinking about this or that or the other thing and not the Person before you. You need to shut up and listen. You need to quiet the mind. You need to still the endless stream of distracting thoughts and listen. You need to be silent.

It's really that simple to understand, in the most basic way. It's what it really boils down to. But what you are listening to is not human words, but the Heart of God! And so, my friend, when the Bible clearly, explicitly states, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of the my heart be pleasing to you, oh Lord," it is a quiet listening with the heart, stilling the active, distracting mind, so you can, so you are able to actually, truly listen from the heart, with the heart, which hears not with analytical thought, but the sense of the soul itself

If you don't believe me, if you don't believe those who actual do this, try it yourself and see. You spoke about experience needing validation by scripture? He it is, "Taste and see the Lord is good". Taste is done through direct, firsthand experience, not through "study". Do both. Scripture validate seeking to experience God, "taste and see", it tells you.

How do you "taste and see"?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Chapter and verse, please, as they say?
Hi Windwalker,

Gal. 1:5-9
Perversion of the Gospel
6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7. which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.


Col. 2:8
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Let's be realistic here for a few minutes, as well as point out the absurdity of this supposed litmus test of all truth. First off, validate with scripture according to whose interpretation of scripture? Oops. Down goes that house of cards at the outset. There is no way possible for scripture to be taken as an absolute, as no one reading it has an absolute interpretation.

I started a thread on this some time back you may wish to read through and get back to me again with this claim above that you need to "validate" experience with scripture. In reality, you should actually validate scripture with experience! But when you have experience, then how you understand scripture will in fact reflect that, just as how without experience how you read scripture demonstrates a lack of awareness currently. I will listen to someone's understanding of scripture coming from a place of experience with a greater consideration, way before listening to someone who has no experience whatsoever, as is clearly speaking in only the theoretical, not actual firsthand knowledge validated by experience. If someone with no experience claims something from scripture that violates experience directly, than that interpretation is suspect. Experience gives anyone insights into these things beyond those who have none
Well, I’m not the kind of conservative Christian that has no experience at all; if you will check the thread about “Do you believe in demons?” I posted some of my encounters with the evil spirits to the point that they are trying to put me to death. I even witnessed members of the church began to fell on the floor, shaking and the other are in trance condition. My first impression to that incident is to believe what the pastor delivering to his members about Signs and Wonders. After a long years of my spiritual walk, I discovered that those words that I’ve heard from that pastor (a friend) was not consistent with the Scripture. My approach then—is to be balance in my spiritual perspective on the incident transpired in line with the Scripture. I never turn away from supernatural experiences, but being conscious with the Scripture as my testing kit.

People will cite their religion's scriptures in discussions or disputes over differences in beliefs to settle the debate in their favor. You will hear claims, "The Bible says...", "God says....", "The Holy Koran says....", etc., but in all of these cases such beliefs in external authorities such as this completely ignores the person interpreting the words. It ignore themselves. It presumes that what they are understanding by reading something outside themselves qualifies as objective truth. It completely ignores the processes involved in how we perceive and interpret truth and reality, and in effect absolves themselves of any responsibility in absolutist thought. It denies that they say what they say God says.

It is impossible to say "God's word says....", because what they are reading is completely filtered through their own mind's interpretive frameworks; language, culture, personality, developmental stages, cognitive abilities, fears, anxieties, hopes, expectations, needs, desires, and a long list of such filters through which the whole of reality is mediated, including their religion's sacred scriptures. "God's word says...", is in reality, what their culture and personality is capable of seeing, and nothing more. Therefore, as one grows and develops, and their consciousness is expanded through various types of awareness that changes over time, what "God's word says...", will become different. It is therefore impossible to cite something you read as an authority, because it has the individual's mind and culture completely embedded within that interpretation.by Windwalker


I believe it is possible to cite something that I read as an authority- the Bible. As I mentioned above, I’ve experience it first before I assessed that it is wrong and unbiblical.
I did it!

I have yet to hear any literalist deal with this reality. How can they cite scripture as authoritative, when they are the interpreters? I will even add, that to cite scholars, also has that problem. Even at best, the scholar is still embedded within his own set of presumptions. Is objective truth ever truly objective?by Windwalker


Then how will you know that their interpretations are sound if you did not know how to interpret. As for sports, how will you know a person’s swimming skill is wrong if you did not have the knowledge & knowhow to swim? Logical.
For Scholars, then you have to check their background. One example is this: a Scholar used to practice séances throughout his life, he wrote a book and cited his supernatural experiences. He is known as the main contributor and influencer with the so-called bible—followed by a religious group.

Now, the question is: do you think that the so-called bible was interpreted sound without adding or changing some of the biblical term? Will you trust that bible (this is another Bible from what we use)?

I'm all for validation. But it has to be validation with those who have actual experience, versus those who are clueless. It's like asking someone who has never looked through a telescope to validate what you saw looking through one, without them actually looking through it! All that person without experience has to go on is speculation, not experience. So validate it with scripture is all good and fine, to a point. But it has to be with someone who is qualified, someone who has the actual experience in order to help their own understanding of these things. Someone not looking through the telescope themselves, is not qualified to make a pronouncement on the findings of those who do the actual experiment, regardless of how many books of science they have read and the knowledge of astronomy they think they have. End of story.
So you are saying that we tried first your way of contemplative experience to discover the truth. You may say that as a logical truth but seemingly violating the trust and faith in the infallible word of God. When Jesus warned the Apostles/disciples from the false teachers/teachings, do you think they should become false teachers first to attest what Jesus is saying is valid or not valid.

In other words, the mere theologian, those with head knowledge only become out-contextualized by those who use the greater tools of inquiry, such as the telescope versus just speculative science using logic arguments only. Meditation practice is the same as using a telescope to look through into the heavens with the eye of Spirit, versus the eye of mind alone. Then, from the advantage of seeing with the eye of Spirit, the eye of mind now becomes informed by this knowledge, and how the eye of mind sees becomes "illuminated" by that Light. Without that Light, it's just "all in the head", as they say.
Why we should need to look through a telescope if Jesus say that we live by faith; therefore you seems loosing your faith to God and try harder to reach by your own effort. As example, when Jesus said that He is the Light, we truly believe that He is the Light, and that stopped there. For you, you know that Jesus said He is the Light, but you did not stopped, and tried so hard to find that Light—as there is no light at all. So, where is faith here, where is your trust--that He is the Light? Did you doubt or God’s grace is not enough?

Exactly. You first have to rely on the experience of the medical professional to tell you what works and what doesn't. Not those who have no experience as a practicing physician telling you what pills you should take. Then you need to validate with those medical professionals, those who actually practice medicine, that you are in fact following the prescription correctly, then have regular checkups to check on the effectiveness of the drug, the dosage prescribed, and the frequency of use. In other words, you should only be going to a practicing physician with experience, not some hack who found a medical book on the street and believes he is now a qualified professional because he read about medicine and memorized all the drug names. Or, because a religious person read "about" God. You need to speak with those who have experience with God as well. They are the ones who have greater insights and can speak with greater authority. Their experience always gives them greater insight into "what is written".
Yes. I know that—as I said above that experience is absolutely a valid truth for all that you know what you are doing. May I ask you, do all experiences is right and without error?
Based on my example above, you diverted your reasoning immediately as you concluded the kind of medicine that will be taking. You did not get my point here. The point of checking here is the same as checking the scripture; what experience will you received should be checked and validated.

You need to have a measure of the effectiveness of the practice, or the medicine you are taking. Here is that measure of effectiveness I have cited from post one: "By their fruits you shall know them." "[And] the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". And so forth. If the medicine you are taking is producing these, then it is the correct prescription. If it is not, then it is either the wrong prescription, you need a different prescription, a different dosage, or you need to find a better doctor.
Did I ask you once on how do you measure "By their fruits you shall know them” if Buddhist experienced patience, Islam experienced peace, Taoist experienced kindness, Judaism experienced love etc.., then how do you gauge them/ how do you reconcile them with your “fruits” basis?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
One "raphahs" by taking deep breaths and quieting the mind.
Hi Sojourner,

What is your basis here? Do you have any reference that served as authority to claim the meaning of “raphahs” is by taking deep breathe and quieting the mind?

Did I posted Strong’s meaning of the text is wrong? Kindly show me how you arrived at this point.
Strong's #7503: raphah (pronounced raw-faw')
a primitive root; to slacken (in many applications, literal or figurative):--abate, cease, consume, draw (toward evening), fail, (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go, down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak(-en). See 7495.

The Hebrew texts cannot promise what they do not conceive. It's usually a huge exegetical mistake to form an apology for the Greek texts with the Hebrew texts.
What is the Spirit of the Lord? Is it the same as the Holy Spirit. I don’t pushed the Holy Spirit to the Old Testament rather the continuation of working of God’s Spirit.

So, we're not to mirror the acts of the Holy Spirit within us. Does that also mean we're not supposed to mirror what Jesus does as an example for us?
I have nothing against the Holy Spirit working in our lives. I just want to point out that it is the Holy Spirit who works and not us (as human).

Read the Nicene and Apostles' Creed.

So, we both believed on these Creeds. This is what I’m trying to imply to you, we differ in some areas or approach to meditation. This creeds is a doctrinal creeds, the foundation of Christianity.
Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Apostles Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.


The meditative practices we've described are the way the Desert Fathers practiced, and they're the way the ancient church down to the present day has practiced. If you're doing it differently, then you aren't in accord with the ancient church.
Yes. As I reviewed the Christian mysticism, we do not adhere to the ancient mysticism.

As part of the Protestant Reformation, theologians turned away from the traditions developed in the Middle Ages and returned to biblical and early church sources. Accordingly, they were often skeptical of Catholic mystical practices, which seemed to them to downplay the role of grace in redemption and to support the idea that human works can play a role in salvation, and which also seemed to come from post-biblical sources and practices. Thus Protestant theology developed a strong critical attitude, oftentimes even an animosity towards Christian mysticism.[41] However, Quakers, Anglicans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Pentecostals and Charismatics have in various ways remained open to the idea of mystical experiences. Wikipedia Christian Mysticism

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Certainly, but you would need to do some work to show that Ignatius warned against contemplation as a non-Christian or otherwise deleterious practice, or to show that contemplation is based on some theoretical construct that Ignatius would consider to be a false doctrine. With regard to his epistles (you can find others through the site I linked, or through Google) I would say his warnings about false doctrine focus on several in particular

1. Against Judaism in context the debate about circumcision and other practices of the Jewish Law as Christian requirements.

"Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing. For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace." (To The Mag. 8)
"Now, if anyone preaches Judaism to you, pay no attention to him..." (To The Philadelphians 6)
2. Against docetism in particular or views that deny the death, resurrection or divinity of Christ in general:

"Be deaf, then, to any talk that ignores Jesus Christ, of David’s lineage, of Mary; who was really born, ate; and drank; was really persecuted under Pontius Pilate; was really crucified and died, in the sight of heaven and earth and the underworld. He was really raised from the dead, for his Father raised him, just as his Father will raise us, who believe on him, through Christ Jesus, apart from whom we have no genuine life." (To The Trallians 9)

"For it was for our sakes that he suffered all this, to save us. And he genuinely suffered, as even he genuinely raised himself. It is not as some unbelievers say, that his Passion was a sham. It’s they who are a sham!" (to the Smyrneans 2)
3. Against disunity, disrespect of church authority, and especially schism regarding the Eucharist:

"Try to gather together more frequently to celebrate God’s Eucharist and to praise him. For when you meet with frequency, Satan’s powers are overthrown and his destructiveness is undone by the unanimity of your faith." (to the Ephesians 13)

"I believed, then, that I saw your whole congregation in these people I have mentioned, and I loved you all. Hence I urge you to aim to do everything in godly agreement" (to the Magnesians 6)

"Pay close attention to those who have wrong notions about the grace of Jesus Christ, which has come to us, and note how at variance they are with God’s mind. They care nothing about love: they have no concern for widows or orphans, for the oppressed, for those in prison or released, for the hungry or the thirsty. They hold aloof from the Eucharist and from services of prayer, because they refuse to admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised." (to the Smyrnaeans 6-7)

"Since you are children of the light of truth, flee from schism and false doctrine... Keep away from bad pasturage. Jesus Christ does not cultivate it since the Father did not plant it. Not that I found schism among you — rather had you been sifted. As many as are God’s and Jesus Christ’s, they are on the bishop’s side; and as many as repent and enter the unity of the church, they shall be God’s, and thus they shall live in Jesus Christ’s way." (to the Philadelphians 2-3)
What I do not find in the epistles is anything against contemplative prayer. To be fair, I don't believe any of the epistles has as its aim the goal of explicating in detail the practice of contemplative prayer, although prayer is mentioned often. At best the more mystical themes are alluded to, as I shall present in a moment. But it's misleading to respond to a citation of Ignatius in favor of silence by asserting that he cautioned against false doctrine, because he was entirely unconcerned with contemplation as such a false doctrine.
Hi Wellnamed,

Well, I believed Ignatius does not say anything nor mentioned about contemplative/meditation, therefore we may not use him as our model for the contemplative.

I think what is needed is probably some clearer exposition of the symbolic meaning of terms like "silence" in the Christian worldview of writers like Ignatius, which is a large undertaking, although I think if you read this thread carefully you can see many different pieces tied together: John's gospel, other later Christian writers on mystical prayer, and etc. You yourself cited a line from Ignatius that is crucial to making sense of these ideas (emphasis added)

"Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of the most honourable of all names, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, the constant source of our life, and of faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred, but especially of Jesus and the Father, in whom, if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world, and escape them, we shall enjoy God." (to the Magnesians 1)
Contemplative prayer, or Christian mysticism in general, is nothing other than the aspiration towards union of the flesh and spirit with Jesus Christ, and with the body of other Christians. The two are taken as sides of a coin, especially in Paul's writings, which Ignatius references:

"You have been initiated into the mysteries with Paul, a real saint and martyr, who deserves to be congratulated. When I come to meet God may I follow in his footsteps, who in all his letters mentions your union with Christ Jesus." (to the Ephesians 12)
The word mysteries is an allusion to Paul's usage of the term, in reference to the mystery of Christ, which is both a reference to the unexpected and somewhat paradoxical nature of the Incarnation in comparison with Paul's previous understanding of a Jewish messiah, but also a reference to the mystery of union with God through Christ, which underlies both Paul and Ignatius' references to union with Christ, or being "in Christ" as we have previously discussed.

In the same vein, it's worth pointing out that Ignatius begins all of his epistles by referring to himself as Ignatius Theophorus. Literally "God bearer", although the English translation I've been citing renders it as "God-inspired". It means one who embodies and manifests the indwelling Spirit and light of God in a special way. This title was later on adopted by the eastern Churches in reference to other saints, and always applied to those who especially cultivated the experiential knowledge of God in contemplative prayer. St. Isaac of Syria, who I quoted before, is one example of a saint referred to as Theophorus in the eastern Christian tradition. Rather than arguing for the scriptural and traditional basis of that view, Ignatius merely cites his title, knowing his audience understands the meaning.

In fact, Ignatius makes reference to the idea that this knowledge goes beyond just the recitation of proper doctrine in his epistles, although he also certainly emphasizes that doctrine and considers this experiential knowledge of the mysteries a thing which requires initiation and circumspection:

"Some there may be who wanted in a human way to mislead me, but the Spirit is not misled, seeing it comes from God. For “it knows whence it comes and whither it goes,” and exposes what is secret." (to the Philadelphians 7)
The passage goes on to speak about the authority of the Spirit residing in the Church, which is a tangent that is worth exploring in relation to the question of authority as raised elsewhere:

"I urge you, do not do things in cliques, but act as Christ’s disciples. When I heard some people saying, “If I don’t find it in the original documents, I don’t believe it in the gospel,” I answered them, “But it is written there.” They retorted, “That’s just the question.” To my mind it is Jesus Christ who is the original documents. The inviolable archives are his cross and death and his resurrection and the faith that came by him. It is by these things and through your prayers that I want to be justified." (to the Philadelphians 8)
He says more about his mystical experience to the Trallians:

"God has granted me many an inspiration, but I keep my limits, lest boasting should be my undoing. For what I need most at this point is to be on my guard and not to heed flatterers. Those who tell me… they are my scourge. To be sure, I am ever so eager to be a martyr, but I do not know if I deserve to be. Many people have no notion of my impetuous ambition. Yet it is all the more a struggle for me. What I need is gentleness by which the prince of this world is overthrown.

Am I incapable of writing to you of heavenly things? No, indeed; but I am afraid to harm you, seeing you are mere babes. You must forgive me, but the chances are you could not accept what I have to say and would choke yourselves. Even in my own case, it is not because I am a prisoner and can grasp heavenly mysteries, the ranks of the angels, the array of principalities, things visible and invisible — it is not because of all that that I am a genuine disciple as yet. There is plenty missing, if we are not going to be forsaken by God." (Trallians 5)
I think it is important to note here that his cautions are an example of discernment as a spiritual virtue as I have tried to describe it, beyond reflecting a view about the requirement of initiation. Taking all of that as background should I think flesh out a bit more what the word Silence means to Ignatius, although I think also the allusions to John should be kept in mind as well:

"It is better to keep quiet and be real, than to chatter and be unreal. It is a good thing to teach if, that is, the teacher practices what he preaches. There was one such Teacher, who “spoke and it was done”;and what he did in silence is worthy of the Father. He who has really grasped what Jesus said can appreciate his silence. Thus he will be perfect: his words will mean action, and his very silence will reveal his character." (to the Ephesians 15)

"...God is one, and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ, who is his Word issuing from the silence..." (to the Magnesians 8)

"By being silent he can do more than those who chatter. For he is in tune with the commandments as a harp is with its strings. For this reason I bless his godly mind, recognizing its virtue and perfection, and the way he lives in altogether godly composure, free from fitfulness and anger." (to the Philadelphians 1)
What ties these together is a combination of both a practical view about Christian life and virtue, as well as a background mystical theology as I've tried to describe above. Practically speaking, silence is an expression of humility, as in the case of Christ's silence before Pilate, or his own silence about his mystical experiences. It is also connected to the practical value of a detached and composed mind, free from anger. In praising their bishop to the Philadelphians, he emphasizes the virtue of his mindfulness, expressed in silence. Throughout the later tradition, exemplified by the 4th century desert fathers, this composed and detached mindfulness is the fruit of silent prayer and meditation, alongside the cultivation of humility, selflessness, and love.

Theologically, the humility of Christ is an expression of something in the nature of Divinity, reflecting its apophatism (cf. John and what I've said about the invisibility of God) and also its own humility and love, which "makes it rain upon the just as well as the unjust". Ignatius' epistles are mostly pastoral and practical, but the practical advice needs to be understood against the background of his theological views, which clearly include an idea of spiritual authority grounded in the Holy Spirit which is active in a way that goes beyond the literal text of scripture (cf. Philadelphians 8) and which emphasizes the importance of union with Christ (cf. Magnesians 1). Those two main points are already the core of Christian mysticism, in which contemplative prayer is considered the means par excellence of reaching that union.

Now, Ignatius is not canonical, so I expect that one possible retort here is to simply suggest he is wrong. My point in citing him was first of all just to help establish the fact that the kinds of ideas being discussed go back to the very beginning of Christianity, rather than being some modern innovation. I hope that this helps tie those threads together at the very least.

I don't believe the question of authority can be settled purely by appeal to the modern canon of the Bible either (nor by appeal to Ignatius, of course), because for one thing that very canon was established by a Church authority which very much agreed with Ignatius' views, rather than the modern protestant ones, and secondly because the very authority of that Church to establish the canon can't be grounded in the text itself, which makes no such assertion about its own status, and simply can't given the fact that it's a collection of texts written across a long period of time by disparate authors, many of whom did not claim their writings to be scripture at the time. At the very least, it should be recognized that as far back as we are able to adequately assess the views of self-identified Christians, they have held views about the Spirit, about scripture, and about prayer which are well described as mystical and which embrace the idea of contemplation, as well as symbols like Silence.
As I reviewed your post about Desert Fathers and the Christian mysticism, some of the early Church Fathers like Gregory of Nissa and the Cappadocian Fathers worked out their faith. As the mysticism moving forward as to the Middle Ages, Christian Mysticism was not the same practice as of today, and linked with some theological issues. I think this the reason why the Protestants does not embraced the traditions plus the New Age participation and influence of the modern mystics like Ellen White.

Ellen G. White (1827-1915): Founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church writer and mystic.


Reformation

With the Renaissance came the
Protestant Reformation, which in many ways downplayed mysticism, although it still produced a fair amount of spiritual literature. Even the most active reformers can be linked to Medieval mystical traditions. Martin Luther, for instance, was a monk who was influenced by the German Dominican mystical tradition of Eckhart and Tauler as well by the Dionysian-influenced Wesenmystik ("essence mysticism") tradition. He also published the Theologia Germanica, which he claimed was the most important book after the Bible and Augustine for teaching him about God, Christ, and humanity.[28] Even John Calvin, who rejected many Medieval ascetic practices and who favored doctrinal knowledge of God over affective experience, has Medieval influences, namely, Jean Gerson and the Devotio moderna, with its emphasis on piety as the method of spiritual growth in which the individual practices dependence on God by imitating Christ and the son-father relationship. Meanwhile, his notion that we can begin to enjoy our eternal salvation through our earthly successes leads in later generations to "a mysticism of consolation".[29]


Mystic Traditions


Protestantism

As part of the
Protestant Reformation, theologians turned away from the traditions developed in the Middle Ages and returned to biblical and early church sources. Accordingly, they were often skeptical of Catholic mystical practices, which seemed to them to downplay the role of grace in redemption and to support the idea that human works can play a role in salvation, and which also seemed to come from post-biblical sources and practices. Thus Protestant theology developed a strong critical attitude, oftentimes even an animosity towards Christian mysticism.[41] However, Quakers, Anglicans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Pentecostals and Charismatics have in various ways remained open to the idea of mystical experiences.(Wikipedia- Christian mysticism)

I positioned myself the same with the Protestants as turned away from the traditions.

Thanks

 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I think I've been extremely direct, and extremely clear, each of the several times I've answered this question. Will one more time help? I'm not sure, but maybe it might so I'll give it a go again.

If you're mind is busy thinking about all these other things in your life, how can you hear what is right before you with all that distraction? It's really that simple. Even something as simple as in a relationship with another human being, if you are in your head, thinking about what all these other things that has nothing to do with the person before you who is trying to talk to you, you cannot possibly, actually hear what they are trying to say because you are not actually listening. You are not listening because you are distracted in your own thoughts. If you are able to suspend all that looping dialog you are distracting yourself with, then suddenly a whole world of "other" opens to you. You hear the person talking to you. You deepen your relationship with them as a result. You grow as a person yourself as a result.

When it comes to meditation practice, it is essentially the same thing. You cannot hear or see truly what is right before you, what is trying to communicate with you, if you are busy thinking about this or that or the other thing and not the Person before you. You need to shut up and listen. You need to quiet the mind. You need to still the endless stream of distracting thoughts and listen. You need to be silent.

It's really that simple to understand, in the most basic way. It's what it really boils down to. But what you are listening to is not human words, but the Heart of God! And so, my friend, when the Bible clearly, explicitly states, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of the my heart be pleasing to you, oh Lord," it is a quiet listening with the heart, stilling the active, distracting mind, so you can, so you are able to actually, truly listen from the heart, with the heart, which hears not with analytical thought, but the sense of the soul itself

If you don't believe me, if you don't believe those who actual do this, try it yourself and see. You spoke about experience needing validation by scripture? He it is, "Taste and see the Lord is good". Taste is done through direct, firsthand experience, not through "study". Do both. Scripture validate seeking to experience God, "taste and see", it tells you.

How do you "taste and see"?
I’m in the midst of walking with Him—is not to taste anymore—but being with the Lord Jesus because he is good. I’m walking with Him in obedience with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Very well. You're not going to like my answers:

Demonic:
1.) Christian fundamentalism
2.) Legalism
3.) Fearmongering (such as suggesting meditation opens you to Satan)
4.) Anti-intellectualism
5.) Anti-science
6.) All of the above being taught to others as serving God, and that they will go to hell if they doubt it.
7.) FEAR
8.) Telling lies in the name of Christ for the sake of political agendas.
9.) Etc.

Non-demonic:
1.) Anything that produces the Fruit of the Spirit
2.) Anything which promotes love and unity
3.) Anything which teaches and promotes a path to Peace
4.) Prayer, including meditation practice
5.) Open mindedness
6.) Open heartedness
7.) Non-judgmentalism
8.) The Peace of God
9.) Etc.
Windwalker,

So, it is very clear, and I like your answers. When I read the demonic section, I am not surprise from what you had enumerated.
Demonic:
1.) I’m not a Christian fundamentalist. I’m in the deliverance ministry before, and until now still kicking.
2.) Not legalistic now than before—to the extent that I’m posing as self-righteous.
3.) Fearmongering-depends on what kind of meditation. Basis pls.:rolleyes:
4.) Anti-intellectualism? Can you define it?
5.) I’m not against science, it’s the scientist that does not believe in the Scripture.
6.) I did not say that you’re going to hell. That is bad. We based on personal relationship with Christ.
7.) The fear that you mentioned is very general—my fear belongs to the Lord, fear of God.
8.) I don’t tell lies, I like the truth.

Non-demonic:
1.) Anything that produces the Fruit of the Spirit. Yes I agree, but what is your basis?
2.) Anything which promotes love and unity. Amen.
3.) Anything which teaches and promotes a path to Peace. Amen.
4.) Prayer, including meditation practice. Depending on what kind of Meditation, (Satanist & New Agers, TM also meditates, ):rolleyes:
5.) Open mindedness. That is good, but don’t fall to openness that lead you away from the truth of the word.
6.) Open heartedness. Amen.
7.) Non-judgmentalism. Amen.
8.) The Peace of God. Amen
9.) Etc.-Amen:):D

Thanks
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Well, I believed Ignatius does not say anything nor mentioned about contemplative/meditation, therefore we may not use him as our model for the contemplative.

To be clear, I quoted him initially as an example of the use of "Silence" as a symbol for God in early Christianity, as you asked about it. Certainly Ignatius can't be used to support any very specific practice, but I believe the citations I've provided do give you a good a reason to consider his views compatible with some form of Christian mysticism, based on his comments about Paul's mysteries, his claims to inspiration and knowledge of heavenly things, his views on scripture and Christ as the "original documents", and his exhortations toward union with Christ.

As I reviewed your post about Desert Fathers and the Christian mysticism, some of the early Church Fathers like Gregory of Nissa and the Cappadocian Fathers worked out their faith. As the mysticism moving forward as to the Middle Ages, Christian Mysticism was not the same practice as of today, and linked with some theological issues. I think this the reason why the Protestants does not embraced the traditions plus the New Age participation and influence of the modern mystics like Ellen White.

"Mysticism" is obviously a very broad and somewhat fuzzily defined term, as is contemplation, meditation, and related practices and words. It is unreasonable to reject the entire broad range of meanings of the terms and practices merely because there exist modern practitioners who hold views that you (and probably I, although I'm unfamiliar with Ellen White) disagree with. It's also unreasonable to present 7th Day Adventism as some sort of paradigm of modern Christian mysticism, over against much larger and longer-lived traditions in more mainstream Christianity.

In any case, it seems to me that you are now at least tacitly accepting the validity of some mystical or contemplative views as authentically Christian? You do not (for example) object to the mysticism of Gregory of Nyssa? Having read his Life of Moses and a good part of his homilies on the Song of Songs, as well as some commentary on his views about faith, I would suggest that everything I've said in this thread about contemplation and mysticism is inline with his writings. I've been attempting to give a very orthodox justification of contemplation.

My primary aim in this thread has been to try to argue in favor of the fact that some form of mysticism is in fact authentically Christian, going back to even the very early church and finding no lack of support in the Biblical text, especially as it was understood by the early church, and that it is possible and desirable for a Christian to embrace practices related to contemplative prayer with the aspiration towards an experiential union with God. From the perspective of many ancient Christian theologians, not only is such an aspiration desirable, it is the essential aim of Christianity. That is not to say that all practices and all views are equally valuable or may be equally given a biblical basis, but what I'm arguing against is the total rejection of mysticism and contemplative prayer, which isn't the same as saying you should embrace without question every possible expression.

It's also fair to say that I have more liberal views than you do about the validity and value of other religious traditions besides Christianity, but it is not necessary to hold those views in order to embrace contemplation as a Christian practice. In fact, I would suggest it is actually impossible to have a complete understanding of Christianity, either of the biblical text or of the traditions and practices of actual Christians over the last 2000 years, without understanding the mystical symbolism and views which are central to both.

Finally, I'd offer one more general observation. I'm not well read on Evangelical theologians, but I was reading on John Wesley yesterday. Would you consider him an important theologian in the evangelical tradition? He's listed as an important leader in the movement on the Wikipedia page. In any case, in outlining his methodology for developing a systematic Christian theology, it's noteworthy that he accepts the validity of both tradition and personal experience, and is reported to have written that "what the scripture promises, I enjoy", which is very much a statement of the goal of Christian mysticism. I would suggest that Wesley's methodology might provide a framework in which you could understand and accept the value of experience and contemplation in Christianity.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What is your basis here? Do you have any reference that served as authority to claim the meaning of “raphahs” is by taking deep breathe and quieting the mind?
Experience. When one is stressed, busy, upset, what does one do to calm down? Stop, take some deep breaths, quiet the mind.
What is the Spirit of the Lord? Is it the same as the Holy Spirit.
Not to the OT writers, it isn't. This conflation is just bad exegesis. You're superimposing a much later concept onto ancient writings -- and utilizing cross-cultural concepts.
I have nothing against the Holy Spirit working in our lives. I just want to point out that it is the Holy Spirit who works and not us (as human).
It's a collaboration of the two.
Yes. As I reviewed the Christian mysticism, we do not adhere to the ancient mysticism.
Why not? Don't you take communion, which is also part and parcel of ancient mysticism?
As part of the Protestant Reformation, theologians turned away from the traditions developed in the Middle Ages and returned to biblical and early church sources.
1) Meditation isn't a product of the Middle Ages. It's early -- at least 3rd century, if not earlier.
2) There is no real "return." The Tradition has always been a continual line forward.
3) Many Protestant denominations embrace following the practices of the Desert Fathers.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Gal. 1:5-9
Perversion of the Gospel
6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7. which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.


Col. 2:8
8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Neither of those have anything whatsoever to do with your demand that the reading of the Bible be the standard which all experience must be subject to. In each of those passages, it's speaking to people teaching stuff for you to believe in that is inconsistent with the Spirit of Christ. If anything, it confirms what I said that things you are taught need to be validated by experience, not the other way around. So far, the this is proving my point.

Well, I’m not the kind of conservative Christian that has no experience at all; if you will check the thread about “Do you believe in demons?” I posted some of my encounters with the evil spirits to the point that they are trying to put me to death.
Yes, I found the thread just now and read your posts. The sort of experience I am talking about is the experience of Christ within, not someone having experiences of Sleep Paralysis which they interpret as demons, which is what you described. Yes, it sounds like you have some scary experiences and view these as evil spirits. But that has nothing to do with the experience of meditation we are talking about, where you experience the Infinite presence of God. I think you take your fearful experiences, and fearfully imagine things we "must" be exposing ourselves to. What we experience is qualitatively not the same thing at all. If it were the norm, I'm quite sure I wouldn't be practicing it every day! :)


I even witnessed members of the church began to fell on the floor, shaking and the other are in trance condition.
Yes, I'm familiar with the fundamentalist "deliverance" churches. Yes, the mind is an amazing thing. But again, I view these as psychological phenomena, and the power of suggestion in such churches as these. I do not accept anything supernatural is going on. People who lack an understanding of the mind attribute these to supernatural forces, in the same way we used to imagine sickness was caused by spirits, before we came to understand it as microscopic germs. The mind and psychology is a fascinating study of who wish to understand the complexities of it in order to both better understand and work with people, beyond speaking of these things in magical terms, such as spirits and demons.

My first impression to that incident is to believe what the pastor delivering to his members about Signs and Wonders. After a long years of my spiritual walk, I discovered that those words that I’ve heard from that pastor (a friend) was not consistent with the Scripture. My approach then—is to be balance in my spiritual perspective on the incident transpired in line with the Scripture. I never turn away from supernatural experiences, but being conscious with the Scripture as my testing kit.
You are starting with a suggestion to your mind, you see some phenomena which appears to fit the suggestion, and you see that as a conformation of what you believe. What I am speaking about is the exact opposite of that. I am saying you start with the experiences, without previous suggestions, and then try to understand it in light of the experience. In fact, the sort of experience I am talking about transcends any ideas you have to begin with. It challenges your ideas, forces you to rethink them, rather than looking for confirmation of your beliefs, which is what happened with you. You started with his suggestion to your mind, you saw something that confirmed that suggestion, and you now are convinced of what he taught you.

We are not even in the same ballpark in what we are describing.

People will cite their religion's scriptures in discussions or disputes over differences in beliefs to settle the debate in their favor. You will hear claims, "The Bible says...", "God says....", "The Holy Koran says....", etc., but in all of these cases such beliefs in external authorities such as this completely ignores the person interpreting the words. It ignore themselves. It presumes that what they are understanding by reading something outside themselves qualifies as objective truth. It completely ignores the processes involved in how we perceive and interpret truth and reality, and in effect absolves themselves of any responsibility in absolutist thought. It denies that they say what they say God says.

It is impossible to say "God's word says....", because what they are reading is completely filtered through their own mind's interpretive frameworks; language, culture, personality, developmental stages, cognitive abilities, fears, anxieties, hopes, expectations, needs, desires, and a long list of such filters through which the whole of reality is mediated, including their religion's sacred scriptures. "God's word says...", is in reality, what their culture and personality is capable of seeing, and nothing more. Therefore, as one grows and develops, and their consciousness is expanded through various types of awareness that changes over time, what "God's word says...", will become different. It is therefore impossible to cite something you read as an authority, because it has the individual's mind and culture completely embedded within that interpretation.by Windwalker


I believe it is possible to cite something that I read as an authority- the Bible. As I mentioned above, I’ve experience it first before I assessed that it is wrong and unbiblical.
I did it!
No. Your exposure to knowledge is limited to seeing the world as controlled by external supernatural entities you interpret as spirits and demons. How you then therefore read the Bible inserts that subjective point of view into it. You do not read it the same way I do, as I'm am coming at it from a far larger sphere of understanding than you. I am taking into account things you are completely unaware of, or have zero experience with, or are at this point in your life incapable of understanding. All of those variables lets me look at the same verses you read, and understand them in an entirely different context than what is currently available to you. Therefore, your understanding simply cannot be authoritative to me, because my understanding goes beyond yours. Likewise, my interpretation is not authoritative to you, because you have no understanding of the things I am aware of that allow me to understand it as I do.

It's all relative, to the person reading it. It cannot be authoritative as there is no Absolute point of view.

I have yet to hear any literalist deal with this reality. How can they cite scripture as authoritative, when they are the interpreters? I will even add, that to cite scholars, also has that problem. Even at best, the scholar is still embedded within his own set of presumptions. Is objective truth ever truly objective?by Windwalker


Then how will you know that their interpretations are sound if you did not know how to interpret.
Welcome to the fuzzy reality. :) I would say first of that interpretations are all relative to the context of the person making them. So therefore for they would need to be understood as "sound" for that context. What is "sound" or consistent with your context, is not sound or consistent in mine. And vice verse. So therefore, everything I am saying here now is entirely 'sound' to those who share the points of view I do, who understand the contexts of modernity, the contexts of postmodernity, and the contexts of post-postmodernity or Integral. The context I am hearing from you is a magic/mythic context.

Therefore, none of what I am saying is going to make sense in that world, that framework of a world where angels and demons manipulate and control the world and Jesus Christ is seen as the power to call down to do battle with these malevolent forces. That is not the contex I function within in seeing the world, in how interpret things such as the scriptures. I'm functioning more at the Integral context, which understands the nature of mind and interpretation understood at the postmodern level, and I understand the science and rationality of the modern level, and I understanding the mythic and magic modes of thinking. I see them all, and I try to integrate them into a view that is able to understand all those perspectives at once, with respect to them in what they offer. You likely have no exposure to any of these, so your interpretations can only see those at the mythic and magic frameworks. I must seem a 'demon' to you because you can't fit what I say into that context. Anything not in, is out. :)

As for sports, how will you know a person’s swimming skill is wrong if you did not have the knowledge & knowhow to swim? Logical.
Who is judging right and wrong, and what criteria are they using? Is the goal to move the arm the way Bob over there does, to mimic it perfectly? Or is the goal to be able to effectively navigate across the lake? If it's working, it's not "wrong". It the goal is to conform to a particular choice of style, then he is doing it "wrong" if he does it differently. But what is important in living life? To all look like those in your church? I'm happy to be "wrong" in that case! :) I cannot fit in with that particular swimming style.

So you are saying that we tried first your way of contemplative experience to discover the truth. You may say that as a logical truth but seemingly violating the trust and faith in the infallible word of God. When Jesus warned the Apostles/disciples from the false teachers/teachings, do you think they should become false teachers first to attest what Jesus is saying is valid or not valid.
I am saying in order for you to make any sort of pronouncement on the practices of contemplation and the claims from those who do, you better have some actual knowledge of it. You have to have experience with it, rather than just dismissing out of hand the claims of those who practice it. You have not demonstrated any actual knowledge of it in all the many posts we have exchanged, and the bulk of effort of not only myself, but that of Sojourner and WellNamed have to be repeatedly correct the mistaken claims you continue to repeat.

I'm becoming a bit weary of responding with the same facts to you simply repeating your point of view which is consistently inaccurate and ill-founded.

Why we should need to look through a telescope if Jesus say that we live by faith; therefore you seems loosing your faith to God and try harder to reach by your own effort.
And, once again, a misstatement and a incorrect understanding of meditation practice. "Your own effort". *sigh*. I can't count how many times this has been addressed and disproved. I wholly reject this "your own effort" view as baseless and ignorant. You need to make an actual effort at truly understanding our claims, otherwise I'm going to consider this discussion to have exhausted its value. If I choose to give up since nothing we say is listened to, and inaccuracy are merely repeated, I'll summarize the discussion in a list of all the inaccurate claims and understandings, with the fact stated by those who actually have real experience practicing this. It is more for the benefit of others reading.

I'll leave it here for now as I need to go renew my mind....
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For you, you know that Jesus said He is the Light, but you did not stopped, and tried so hard to find that Light—as there is no light at all. So, where is faith here, where is your trust--that He is the Light? Did you doubt or God’s grace is not enough?
Alright, I lied. I'm not going to stop where I did because there was something I need to respond to in the rest of your reply. :)

As for the above, you speak from a pool of your own baseless assumptions. You know nothing of my experience of God, nor what brought to become one who seeks that Light in the way I do. I began with experience of God. There was no "trying hard to find that Light". It knocked me to the floor, like Saul on the road to Damascus. It was nothing I was seeking. There was no room for doubt in my awareness of what this was, and is. It was firsthand experience. Everything that followed in my religious path began from that starting point, seeking as it were to "come home" to that Presence, to that Mind, to that infinite Love, infinite Grace, infinite compassion, infinite Awareness, pure, flowing, eternal. Why I practice meditation is that it is singularly the only thing that pulls back the veil of the flesh to unite with the divine in this way, to "Know even as I am known."

If you are satisfied with mere belief, then by all means be satisfied. I am not. I began drinking from that Font of Eternal Life, and it is my path to grown within that, and allow that to grow within me. Not everyone has this compulsion, which was put in me from the outset. And that's fine. You don't have to. But why are you trying to dissuade me from that which yields this unity with God??? What is wrong with you, if I may be so blunt to ask? Who are you serving? It sounds like you just want others to believe like you do, not to find their way to God in the way they are called.

Yes. I know that—as I said above that experience is absolutely a valid truth for all that you know what you are doing. May I ask you, do all experiences is right and without error?
Experiences are experiences. How we understand them is always a matter of interpretation. No interpretation is infallible. They are in fact all relative. Do you understand that?

Based on my example above, you diverted your reasoning immediately as you concluded the kind of medicine that will be taking. You did not get my point here. The point of checking here is the same as checking the scripture; what experience will you received should be checked and validated.
Who was the one telling you which pills from the pharmacy to swallow? Which preacher?

Did I ask you once on how do you measure "By their fruits you shall know them” if Buddhist experienced patience, Islam experienced peace, Taoist experienced kindness, Judaism experienced love etc.., then how do you gauge them/ how do you reconcile them with your “fruits” basis?
And here was what I wanted to get to. I answer you by turning it around and asking how do YOU reconcile the fact that they do. You tell me how an evil tree produces good fruit. This is YOUR challenge. My answer is obvious. :)
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
To be clear, I quoted him initially as an example of the use of "Silence" as a symbol for God in early Christianity, as you asked about it. Certainly Ignatius can't be used to support any very specific practice, but I believe the citations I've provided do give you a good a reason to consider his views compatible with some form of Christian mysticism, based on his comments about Paul's mysteries, his claims to inspiration and knowledge of heavenly things, his views on scripture and Christ as the "original documents", and his exhortations toward union with Christ.



"Mysticism" is obviously a very broad and somewhat fuzzily defined term, as is contemplation, meditation, and related practices and words. It is unreasonable to reject the entire broad range of meanings of the terms and practices merely because there exist modern practitioners who hold views that you (and probably I, although I'm unfamiliar with Ellen White) disagree with. It's also unreasonable to present 7th Day Adventism as some sort of paradigm of modern Christian mysticism, over against much larger and longer-lived traditions in more mainstream Christianity.

In any case, it seems to me that you are now at least tacitly accepting the validity of some mystical or contemplative views as authentically Christian? You do not (for example) object to the mysticism of Gregory of Nyssa? Having read his Life of Moses and a good part of his homilies on the Song of Songs, as well as some commentary on his views about faith, I would suggest that everything I've said in this thread about contemplation and mysticism is inline with his writings. I've been attempting to give a very orthodox justification of contemplation.

My primary aim in this thread has been to try to argue in favor of the fact that some form of mysticism is in fact authentically Christian, going back to even the very early church and finding no lack of support in the Biblical text, especially as it was understood by the early church, and that it is possible and desirable for a Christian to embrace practices related to contemplative prayer with the aspiration towards an experiential union with God. From the perspective of many ancient Christian theologians, not only is such an aspiration desirable, it is the essential aim of Christianity. That is not to say that all practices and all views are equally valuable or may be equally given a biblical basis, but what I'm arguing against is the total rejection of mysticism and contemplative prayer, which isn't the same as saying you should embrace without question every possible expression.

It's also fair to say that I have more liberal views than you do about the validity and value of other religious traditions besides Christianity, but it is not necessary to hold those views in order to embrace contemplation as a Christian practice. In fact, I would suggest it is actually impossible to have a complete understanding of Christianity, either of the biblical text or of the traditions and practices of actual Christians over the last 2000 years, without understanding the mystical symbolism and views which are central to both.

Finally, I'd offer one more general observation. I'm not well read on Evangelical theologians, but I was reading on John Wesley yesterday. Would you consider him an important theologian in the evangelical tradition? He's listed as an important leader in the movement on the Wikipedia page. In any case, in outlining his methodology for developing a systematic Christian theology, it's noteworthy that he accepts the validity of both tradition and personal experience, and is reported to have written that "what the scripture promises, I enjoy", which is very much a statement of the goal of Christian mysticism. I would suggest that Wesley's methodology might provide a framework in which you could understand and accept the value of experience and contemplation in Christianity.
Hi Wellnamed,

If the term mysticism belongs to the angelic appearance, casting out demons, miracles and other supernatural feats, it is just only a term, but in my whole life as evangelical, I never touch and used the word "mysticism" or "mystics." If I cast out demons, would you think that I'm a mystic?:rolleyes:

I discovered, read and reviewed a lot of cultic practices of churches here and some of them used the same terminology other than mystic which we found out that their doctrine on how they interpret the word of God--is mystical in form. We won't wonder why the word "mystical" is widely used by the New Age, and linked to eastern meditation practices. They focused on supernatural and wonders. For Christianity, do we say the Pentecostals are mystics?
These are some questions that we may think on the definite meaning of the word "mystics."

For John Wesley, I think I've have read that he is not against Christian mysticism. We really don't know if his knowledge and approach about mystics were the same as you & others. This is what we should ponder.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Experience. When one is stressed, busy, upset, what does one do to calm down? Stop, take some deep breaths, quiet the mind.
Hi Sojourner,
See what I mean here. If somebody tell you that because of his experience Like this and that (as different from your "quiet the mind and take some deep breathes") will you allow that as the meaning of raphah?

Did I posted Strong’s meaning of the text is wrong? Kindly show me how you arrived at this point.
Strong's #7503: raphah (pronounced raw-faw')
a primitive root; to slacken (in many applications, literal or figurative):--abate, cease, consume, draw (toward evening), fail, (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go, down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak(-en). See 7495. posted by Yohann


I don't see any reason why an experience (becomes an authority) will be compromise with the truth?

Why not? Don't you take communion, which is also part and parcel of ancient mysticism?
Ok. You may name things using the term as "ancient mysticism" but the term is not use for evangelicals.

1) Meditation isn't a product of the Middle Ages. It's early -- at least 3rd century, if not earlier.
2) There is no real "return." The Tradition has always been a continual line forward.
3) Many Protestant denominations embrace following the practices of the Desert Fathers.
Yes, I know. I think it is better you enumerate all the practices in detail so we better check and point out what is mysticism and not, and its implications.

Thanks



 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Neither of those have anything whatsoever to do with your demand that the reading of the Bible be the standard which all experience must be subject to. In each of those passages, it's speaking to people teaching stuff for you to believe in that is inconsistent with the Spirit of Christ. If anything, it confirms what I said that things you are taught need to be validated by experience, not the other way around. So far, the this is proving my point.
Hi Windwalker,

Joshua 1:8
8. "This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.


If the Book of the Law was ordered by God to meditate, do you think that God will withdraw His statement to depart from the Word of God in the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:14-17
14. But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15. and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17. that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Rom. 10:17
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Did hearing and reading are the same means to increase faith?o_O

Yes, I found the thread just now and read your posts. The sort of experience I am talking about is the experience of Christ within, not someone having experiences of Sleep Paralysis which they interpret as demons, which is what you described. Yes, it sounds like you have some scary experiences and view these as evil spirits. But that has nothing to do with the experience of meditation we are talking about, where you experience the Infinite presence of God. I think you take your fearful experiences, and fearfully imagine things we "must" be exposing ourselves to. What we experience is qualitatively not the same thing at all. If it were the norm, I'm quite sure I wouldn't be practicing it every day!
Did you know that before and after casting out demons, we prayed? How can we cast out demons if we are not in the presence of God? It is not my problem if before I've entered to the ministry, I dreamed (consecutively and daily) fighting with them as in preparing myself into a battle. God used me to deliver people from the snare and works of deception. I believed this is more of obedience to God on what he wanted me to do.

You are starting with a suggestion to your mind, you see some phenomena which appears to fit the suggestion, and you see that as a conformation of what you believe. What I am speaking about is the exact opposite of that. I am saying you start with the experiences, without previous suggestions, and then try to understand it in light of the experience. In fact, the sort of experience I am talking about transcends any ideas you have to begin with. It challenges your ideas, forces you to rethink them, rather than looking for confirmation of your beliefs, which is what happened with you. You started with his suggestion to your mind, you saw something that confirmed that suggestion, and you now are convinced of what he taught you.

We are not even in the same ballpark in what we are describing.
This is my evidence of my transition of experience to Scripture regardless of what object or subject that we are experiencing.

No. Your exposure to knowledge is limited to seeing the world as controlled by external supernatural entities you interpret as spirits and demons. How you then therefore read the Bible inserts that subjective point of view into it. You do not read it the same way I do, as I'm am coming at it from a far larger sphere of understanding than you. I am taking into account things you are completely unaware of, or have zero experience with, or are at this point in your life incapable of understanding. All of those variables lets me look at the same verses you read, and understand them in an entirely different context than what is currently available to you. Therefore, your understanding simply cannot be authoritative to me, because my understanding goes beyond yours. Likewise, my interpretation is not authoritative to you, because you have no understanding of the things I am aware of that allow me to understand it as I do.

It's all relative, to the person reading it. It cannot be authoritative as there is no Absolute point of view.
I believe that any experience of yours you think higher than my experience should have the point of reference. If your point of reference is not the Word of God itself, then anything can be inserted as long as you're satisfied and felt spiritually higher than others.
If I have a supernatural experiences like yours, and prioritized it as my prime importance in my spirituality; without my point of reference or basis (like the Scripture), would you think that another additional experiences will be entertained? Of course yes, Isn't it?o_O Then it adds until to a point it becomes your doctrine and practices.
Now, the other way around is, if I'm prioritized the Scripture rather than experiences then I will be aware of any experiences that may come in balance with the Scripture.

No doubt, Paul emphasized the armor of God. If we are not vulnerable, how can he remind us about the armor of God?
Eph. 6:16-17
16. in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming missiles of the evil one.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Then faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Welcome to the fuzzy reality. :) I would say first of that interpretations are all relative to the context of the person making them. So therefore for they would need to be understood as "sound" for that context. What is "sound" or consistent with your context, is not sound or consistent in mine. And vice verse. So therefore, everything I am saying here now is entirely 'sound' to those who share the points of view I do, who understand the contexts of modernity, the contexts of postmodernity, and the contexts of post-postmodernity or Integral. The context I am hearing from you is a magic/mythic context.

Therefore, none of what I am saying is going to make sense in that world, that framework of a world where angels and demons manipulate and control the world and Jesus Christ is seen as the power to call down to do battle with these malevolent forces. That is not the contex I function within in seeing the world, in how interpret things such as the scriptures. I'm functioning more at the Integral context, which understands the nature of mind and interpretation understood at the postmodern level, and I understand the science and rationality of the modern level, and I understanding the mythic and magic modes of thinking. I see them all, and I try to integrate them into a view that is able to understand all those perspectives at once, with respect to them in what they offer. You likely have no exposure to any of these, so your interpretations can only see those at the mythic and magic frameworks. I must seem a 'demon' to you because you can't fit what I say into that context. Anything not in, is out. :)
If that will be the case, there should be a standard. You cannot hide anything that is real. Reality is truth and truth is reality. My understanding of the word "sound" means "correct" and not distorting/adding nor diminishing the Scriptures. Regarding your newly opened terminology "postmodernism" and "Integral Context," if you would like to share it more thoroughly, you may set another thread for us to discuss. I shared mine, I think you have a lot to share based on your experience as you considered it as higher than mine. My question is: What is it?:rolleyes:

Who is judging right and wrong, and what criteria are they using? Is the goal to move the arm the way Bob over there does, to mimic it perfectly? Or is the goal to be able to effectively navigate across the lake? If it's working, it's not "wrong". It the goal is to conform to a particular choice of style, then he is doing it "wrong" if he does it differently. But what is important in living life? To all look like those in your church? I'm happy to be "wrong" in that case! :) I cannot fit in with that particular swimming style.
Hmmm. It is again the STANDARD. If you are a housekeeper in a hotel, then I applied your logic of setting your own style or ways of cleaning disregarding the hotel standards that was given to you. Did you think you followed the standards or not?:rolleyes:

Ok. let us get more nearer to reality, when you are a student, we have this history books. The teacher read that book in front of the class. Inside it, it says that the first President of United States is George Washington. Now let us apply your logic, you want your own way and style, you tell you teacher that it is Abraham Lincoln as the first President because he did a lot of good things than George Washington, and he's your idol. Now, do you think that you're in the side of truth or not?:rolleyes:

In regard to spirituality, if we have no concrete standards to follow and follow your ways, you'll get confuse until you embraced all religions in the world as your faith. No direction. Jesus say He is the way, the truth and the life. He said to carry your own cross and become dependent on Him.

I am saying in order for you to make any sort of pronouncement on the practices of contemplation and the claims from those who do, you better have some actual knowledge of it. You have to have experience with it, rather than just dismissing out of hand the claims of those who practice it. You have not demonstrated any actual knowledge of it in all the many posts we have exchanged, and the bulk of effort of not only myself, but that of Sojourner and WellNamed have to be repeatedly correct the mistaken claims you continue to repeat.

I'm becoming a bit weary of responding with the same facts to you simply repeating your point of view which is consistently inaccurate and ill-founded.
Ill-founded?:eek: what is ill to follow and prioritize the Scriptures? Since the start of our discussion, you rarely cite and posted Scriptures here to support your message.What actual knowledge you would like for me to give to you?:rolleyes: You may cite some so I may know what it is.

Thanks:)
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Alright, I lied. I'm not going to stop where I did because there was something I need to respond to in the rest of your reply. :)

As for the above, you speak from a pool of your own baseless assumptions. You know nothing of my experience of God, nor what brought to become one who seeks that Light in the way I do. I began with experience of God. There was no "trying hard to find that Light". It knocked me to the floor, like Saul on the road to Damascus. It was nothing I was seeking. There was no room for doubt in my awareness of what this was, and is. It was firsthand experience. Everything that followed in my religious path began from that starting point, seeking as it were to "come home" to that Presence, to that Mind, to that infinite Love, infinite Grace, infinite compassion, infinite Awareness, pure, flowing, eternal. Why I practice meditation is that it is singularly the only thing that pulls back the veil of the flesh to unite with the divine in this way, to "Know even as I am known."

If you are satisfied with mere belief, then by all means be satisfied. I am not. I began drinking from that Font of Eternal Life, and it is my path to grown within that, and allow that to grow within me. Not everyone has this compulsion, which was put in me from the outset. And that's fine. You don't have to. But why are you trying to dissuade me from that which yields this unity with God??? What is wrong with you, if I may be so blunt to ask? Who are you serving? It sounds like you just want others to believe like you do, not to find their way to God in the way they are called.
It's like I want to hear more what happened after you knocked out. I'm serving the God in the Bible who is the spirit and truth. I believe in Nicene and Apostles Creed like Sojourner did, but different in application. I'm being aware and based on the Scripture like Katiemygirl and InChrist.

Experiences are experiences. How we understand them is always a matter of interpretation. No interpretation is infallible. They are in fact all relative. Do you understand that?
If that will be the case, there will be no technology right now and all things around us here; no basis or standards. No right or wrong, no moral, and likewise it is like no God exist.:rolleyes:

Who was the one telling you which pills from the pharmacy to swallow? Which preacher?
Not preacher, but the Scriptures. Preachers use the Bible as his reference. Be aware if there is a preacher who preach without any Bible, the same thing what happened to cults that killed his members including children by suicide. And some preachers may have a Bible but their teachings is not the truth that is in line with the Scriptures. Jesus already warned us about this. He knows what will happen in the future--that people will be blinded by signs and wonders, thus making their own desires/likeness.:cool:

And here was what I wanted to get to. I answer you by turning it around and asking how do YOU reconcile the fact that they do. You tell me how an evil tree produces good fruit. This is YOUR challenge. My answer is obvious.
Ok.:) You said that your basis is "the fruits of the Spirit" as the evidence. I asked you if by their fruit should be the basis, how about other's faith's/beliefs that had peace, love, kindness, faithfulness etc..? Well, it boils down to the standard--the Scripture. If the Scripture is not my basis, I may do believe what your basis are by just looking different faiths; you may get the goodness from the other's faith, faithfulness from the other's faith etc.. It does not lean on one direction. If we say that we believed in Nicene and Apostles Creeds, why should we seek from the faith of others?:( It is like make out of a joke with your faith by not having sincerity in one's faith. If somebody says he is a Muslim, then he should be truly a Muslim and so on.

This is what I'm trying to tell you.

Thanks
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't see any why an experience (becomes an authority) will be compromise with the truth?
So, to you, life is nothing but some detached, academic exercise?
Ok. You may name things using the term as "ancient mysticism" but the term is not use for evangelicals.
Why are you afraid of the term?? Communion consists of several mystic elements. First, Jesus said that the bread and wine were his body and blood. Second, from the earliest days of the church, the belief was that there was only one Eucharist -- in all times and in all places, and that Christians of the present day are joined with Jesus and the disciples in the upper room, mystically eating the same bread that the disciples ate. That's mysticism. Unless you water it down into something that neither the biblical writers nor early church envisioned it to be.
the term is not use for evangelicals.
That's because evangelicals dismiss the early church, even as they say they embrace it.
 
You know, this whole thing seems quite confusing and circular. How do you or anyone for that matter quote scripture for the basis of your practice yet you deny the authority of the scriptures? Why bother with the bible as your reference point? How can you use scripture as your supporting argument if you don't even believe this verse?

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It doesn't say some scripture......it says ALL scripture. Just throw the whole thing out and deny it. I have more respect for atheists that simply do not believe it. At least they aren't trying to modify it to suit their own needs, they simply don't believe it.
 
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