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What is Faith?

Which Meaning of Faith Do You Most Identify With?

  • Assensus - Intellectual Assent

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Fiducia - Trust

    Votes: 22 37.3%
  • Fidelitas - Loyalty

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Visio - Worldview

    Votes: 13 22.0%
  • All - Other - Explain

    Votes: 19 32.2%

  • Total voters
    59

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
If you want to talk about something other than a supreme being, then you should probably use a different word than "God". Just like when I want to talk about horselike creatures with black and white stripes, I use the word "zebras" instead of "shoes" because that's the best way to communicate.

If 'shoes' was the first word that was used to describe 'zebras', and I decided then to call them 'zebras', then you'd be telling me to stop using 'zebras' when the animals are really called 'shoes'.

It's a circle, and you've chosen some arbitrary point on the circle, and claimed it as the only point on the circle.

Sure, but that's reasonable. It also depends on the claim being made. If the claim is that there are 500,000 atheists/agnostics living in New York City, I'll buy that, at least until I find out differently. That's partly because it doesn't really matter to me, and partly because it's not a very outrageous claim. Now, if someone claimed there were 5 million atheists/agnostics living in New York City, I'd disbelieve them unless they came up with some good evidence.
I didn't say it wasn't reasonable.

But really, the point is, if you're trying to figure out the truth of a claim, the only good way to go is through reason. All you're saying here is that many times we don't even bother trying to figure out the truth of a claim (as in my first example).
If you want to find the rationality of a claim, you should use reason. Again, you are claiming that 'truth' is the same as 'rational'. Therefore, when you find no rationality, you find no truth.
The claim is very limiting, and wrong. It's like saying the only numbers that exist are whole numbers.

If you're using irrational methods to try to reach truth, you're doing the equivalent of throwing darts. It's possible to end up at the truth through irrational means, like faith, but it's unlikely. It really is like trying to hit the bull's-eye. You can use irrational methods like closing your eyes and throwing backwards, or you can use rational methods like looking at the dart board, focusing and throwing straight ahead. Either way, it's possible to hit the bull's-eye, but I think you'd agree that the second way gives you an immensely better chance of achieving that goal than the first.

It narrows your options, effectively blinding you from other possibilities, like the one we've been talking about here, and on other threads. Yes, you are very likely, if your logic is correct, to find a logical answer. And many times, that answer is what really happens. That doesn't mean it happens all the time.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
If 'shoes' was the first word that was used to describe 'zebras', and I decided then to call them 'zebras', then you'd be telling me to stop using 'zebras' when the animals are really called 'shoes'.

It's a circle, and you've chosen some arbitrary point on the circle, and claimed it as the only point on the circle.

The point is about effective communication. Changing what words you use for things all willy-nilly sort of gets in the way of getting your message across to people in a way that they can understand it without having to get out your special decoder ring.

strikeviperMKII said:
If you want to find the rationality of a claim, you should use reason. Again, you are claiming that 'truth' is the same as 'rational'. Therefore, when you find no rationality, you find no truth.
The claim is very limiting, and wrong. It's like saying the only numbers that exist are whole numbers.

But any knowledge claim must be rational by definition; and knowledge claims are those that deal with truth. To have knowledge you must have justified belief, which requires the use of reason. No rationality, no knowledge -- no truth.

strikeviperMKII said:
It narrows your options, effectively blinding you from other possibilities, like the one we've been talking about here, and on other threads. Yes, you are very likely, if your logic is correct, to find a logical answer. And many times, that answer is what really happens. That doesn't mean it happens all the time.

Your insistence that there is some other way to truth besides the use of reason is truly unfounded. For instance, let's put all our cards on the table and I'll show you why.

Please give me an example of a truth someone can discover without the use of reason and I'll tell you what's wrong with it.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If 'shoes' was the first word that was used to describe 'zebras', and I decided then to call them 'zebras', then you'd be telling me to stop using 'zebras' when the animals are really called 'shoes'.

It's a circle, and you've chosen some arbitrary point on the circle, and claimed it as the only point on the circle.

Why are you trying to complicate things? We use the word "zebra" to refer to a horselike creature with black and white stripes. If you want to talk about that creature, you're better served using "zebra" instead of "shoe" because that's the best way to communicate. If you use "shoe", the conversation can get very confusing and becomes more trouble than it's worth.

Yes, language is arbitrary. We assign meaning to different words for no particular reason. But once those words have meanings, speaking with others in that language requires you to use the accepted meanings, and to make up new words to describe new ideas. I have not chosen an arbitrary point on the circle and claimed it as the only point on the circle. I've chosen that point and claimed it's the point to use to best communicate.

If you want to find the rationality of a claim, you should use reason. Again, you are claiming that 'truth' is the same as 'rational'. Therefore, when you find no rationality, you find no truth.
The claim is very limiting, and wrong. It's like saying the only numbers that exist are whole numbers.

I'd rather you reread my post if you don't understand it the first time, so that I don't have to explain it again. I am not claiming that "truth" is the same as "rational". I'm claiming that the best way to find the truth is through rational means. As I said, you can use irrational means like faith, and you might get lucky and hit on the truth, just like you can get lucky and get a bull's-eye by throwing behind your back with your eyes closed, but if you want to give yourself the best chance to find the truth, you should use reason. And no, it's nothing like saying the only numbers that exist are whole numbers.

It narrows your options, effectively blinding you from other possibilities, like the one we've been talking about here, and on other threads. Yes, you are very likely, if your logic is correct, to find a logical answer. And many times, that answer is what really happens. That doesn't mean it happens all the time.

Yes, it narrows my options to rational ones that are likely to find truth, and blind me to other possibilities that are irrational and unlikely to lead me to truth. I'm OK with taking the path that is much more likely to lead me to truth to the exclusion of the path that is unlikely to lead me to truth, but very likely to lead my to a bunch of nonsense that doesn't even make sense. And a logical answer is what's true. An illogical claim is not true.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Change 'real' to 'not rational', and I'm fine with it. If you are claiming real=rational, then my statement before was correct.
(You do have to assume that real=truth, of course.)
Yes, that's what I'm claiming. Anything that really exists can be reconciled with logic.

If by 'false' you mean 'irrational', then I can't really help you.
No, by "false", I mean "false".

Why do you put so much value on rational things?
Because I want to make sure that what I believe is true as much as I can.

If 'shoes' was the first word that was used to describe 'zebras', and I decided then to call them 'zebras', then you'd be telling me to stop using 'zebras' when the animals are really called 'shoes'.

It's a circle, and you've chosen some arbitrary point on the circle, and claimed it as the only point on the circle.
You're arguing about authority, but the issue isn't one of authority, it's one of convention... consensus. The association of a word with a definition is somewhat arbitrary, but once a definition is established, you can't just ignore it if you want to communicate effectively.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
by faith adam had to know what the tree of good and evil meant...
because the definition of these words, good and evil, had not been established as a definitive explanation of their meaning...so good and evil was an arbitrary concept.
if one would take this story literally...
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
The point is about effective communication. Changing what words you use for things all willy-nilly sort of gets in the way of getting your message across to people in a way that they can understand it without having to get out your special decoder ring.

Perhaps the message is the 'decoder ring'. I wouldn't use that term, but you can.

But any knowledge claim must be rational by definition; and knowledge claims are those that deal with truth. To have knowledge you must have justified belief, which requires the use of reason. No rationality, no knowledge -- no truth.

And again, justification can be by something other than reason.

Your insistence that there is some other way to truth besides the use of reason is truly unfounded. For instance, let's put all our cards on the table and I'll show you why.

It is impossible to understand something you have not experienced yourself.

Please give me an example of a truth someone can discover without the use of reason and I'll tell you what's wrong with it.

You're still not getting it.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Because I want to make sure that what I believe is true as much as I can.

No doubt. But I think you've extended that to 'logical' rather than 'truthful'.

You're arguing about authority, but the issue isn't one of authority, it's one of convention... consensus. The association of a word with a definition is somewhat arbitrary, but once a definition is established, you can't just ignore it if you want to communicate effectively.

Might makes right, I guess. Once a definition is established, so is authority. My point stands.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Yeah?

What about it?

It means that one should be VERY careful about postulating additional and excess concepts into one's explanations, in this case ghosts.
This rightly makes the burden of proof rather steep for those who claim the existence of entities which are not only not an accepted part of science, but which would also include a completely new branch of science.
In other words, if what you're proposing, if true, will change the world on a massive scale you should be prepared to present copious amounts of irrefutable evidence.
As well it should be.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The point is about effective communication. Changing what words you use for things all willy-nilly sort of gets in the way of getting your message across to people in a way that they can understand it without having to get out your special decoder ring.
The message was got across. That it didn't come across to some doesn't invalidate the message.

Edit: I really like the analogy, though, of other people's pictures requiring a special decoder ring. YOU have the special decoder ring that allows you to understand non-Plain English phrases like "special decoder ring." Where did you get that ring? You just picked it up along the way (oops, more non-Plain English phrases). That's the same place you'll find every special decoder ring that will turn nonsense into sense --along the way.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Might makes right, I guess. Once a definition is established, so is authority. My point stands.

Huh? Once a definition is established, so is the way to communicate effectively. If you want to change definitions of words, go right ahead, but remember that it's your fault, not others', when you can't seem to communicate effectively with them.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
The message was got across. That it didn't come across to some doesn't invalidate the message.

No. The point was not gotten across. If I'm speaking to you and someone else and neither of you understand what I'm saying, the point didn't get across. And yes, not communicating an idea effectively invalidates the message.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
No. The point was not gotten across. If I'm speaking to you and someone else and neither of you understand what I'm saying, the point didn't get across. And yes, not communicating an idea effectively invalidates the message.
What's that you're saying? I don't understand. You must be saying it wrong.
 
Faith is merely one's loyalty to their patron. That's how I perceive the word anyway. It has nothing to do with truth or believing in the presence of a deity. They are unrelated concepts. To have faith in one's god is to say that you loyally serve whatever directive that god is moving towards.
 
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