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What is Faith?

Which Meaning of Faith Do You Most Identify With?

  • Assensus - Intellectual Assent

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Fiducia - Trust

    Votes: 22 37.3%
  • Fidelitas - Loyalty

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Visio - Worldview

    Votes: 13 22.0%
  • All - Other - Explain

    Votes: 19 32.2%

  • Total voters
    59

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Language is arbitrary, whether we think it is or not. Words are labels, merely our perceptions of things, not what those things really are. If you start identifying the thing the word describes as the word itself, you'll run into all sorts of problems. When our perceptions about a thing change, what we mean when we describe the thing changes as well. That doesn't mean the word we use changes, however.

Yes, language is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean we can just use a word for anything we want. If I start using "remote control" to mean "pocket knife", I'm going to have a lot of trouble communicating effectively. We do arbitrarily assign meanings to words, but we all have to use the same meanings, or else language is useless, and we have to be consistent with our meanings.
 

Nerthus

Wanderlust
Yes, language is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean we can just use a word for anything we want. If I start using "remote control" to mean "pocket knife", I'm going to have a lot of trouble communicating effectively. We do arbitrarily assign meanings to words, but we all have to use the same meanings, or else language is useless, and we have to be consistent with our meanings.

I get what you are saying, although that is how a lot of words mean what they do today. When you look back things had different meanings. A friends teenage son now uses 'book' to mean 'cool', because on predictive text that's what cool first comes up as. So now, his school knows 'book' to mean 'cool'.

Language evolves over time, always has one and always will do.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Yes, language is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean we can just use a word for anything we want. If I start using "remote control" to mean "pocket knife", I'm going to have a lot of trouble communicating effectively. We do arbitrarily assign meanings to words, but we all have to use the same meanings, or else language is useless, and we have to be consistent with our meanings.

I didn't say we can change words whenever and wherever we want. Why would you jump to that conclusion?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I don't think you can have trust or loyalty in something that's not even guaranteed to exist.
That's the time trust is most important, and trust is at the root of loyalty. Soldiers follow their leaders with trust that their leaders are doing the right thing for the benefit of the country. They've no guarantee that that's the case. When we trust in a friend to do a certain thing, it's trusting because there's no guarantee. When we trust in the future to bring us something in particular, we trust because there's no guarantee that the future will be what we anticipate it to be.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
That's the time trust is most important, and trust is at the root of loyalty. Soldiers follow their leaders with trust that their leaders are doing the right thing for the benefit of the country. They've no guarantee that that's the case. When we trust in a friend to do a certain thing, it's trusting because there's no guarantee. When we trust in the future to bring us something in particular, we trust because there's no guarantee that the future will be what we anticipate it to be.

Those are all reasonable things though because you have at least some justification that what you're putting trust in is doing the right thing or going the right way -- else you wouldn't have put trust in them to begin with.

That's 100% different from somehow putting trust in something that you don't even have justification for its existence.

How can I "trust" bumpfizzits?
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Those are all reasonable things though because you have at least some justification that what you're putting trust in is doing the right thing or going the right way -- else you wouldn't have put trust in them to begin with.

That's 100% different from somehow putting trust in something that you don't even have justification for its existence.

How can I "trust" bumpfizzits?

Because you can. Just because there are no justifications to trust someone (or something), doesn't mean you can't. You can even trust someone who has shown that they 'can't' (shouldn't would be a better word) be trusted.

It's not different until you make it different.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Because you can. Just because there are no justifications to trust someone (or something), doesn't mean you can't. You can even trust someone who has shown that they 'can't' (shouldn't would be a better word) be trusted.

It's not different until you make it different.

Again you're using an example of something known to exist. :facepalm:

Nor, I dare say, would it be rational to trust someone that you feel you shouldn't unless under special circumstances; nor "virtuous."
 
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strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Again you're using an example of something known to exist. :facepalm:

Nor, I dare say, would it be rational to trust someone that you feel you shouldn't unless under special circumstances; nor "virtuous."

The qualification of trust (one you have placed on it) is assured existence. Thus it makes it impossible to trust something that is not assured to be exist. Remove that restriction, and you can trust something that is not assured to exist.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The qualification of trust (one you have placed on it) is assured existence. Thus it makes it impossible to trust something that is not assured to be exist. Remove that restriction, and you can trust something that is not assured to exist.

You could, if you don't mind being irrational. I happen to mind being irrational.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I chose worldview as the aspect of faith I most relate to, at least when it comes to religion and God.

I would put the aspects of faith in the order: worldview, trust, loyalty, and intellectual assent for how each is important to me. I put worldview first because I assume that (choose to see the world as) God 'is,' and this assumption colors and shapes my view of my place in existence.

As Borg also says, saying that God 'is' also indicates intellectual assent to some foundational beliefs. I put this aspect of faith last because I really only 'trust' very few of the broad brush strokes that people posit as beliefs about God. I don't reject all doctrine, but I hold most of it very lightly, and primarily only as I find it helpful. The devil really is in the details.

Being a theist means one gives their intellectual assent to the idea that, somehow, God 'is.' Being a Christian further means that one gives assent to the idea that the story of the Bible is 'our' story; it tells us something about our relationship with God. It also means giving our assent to the centrality of Jesus in our relationship with God.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
And why would that be?

Why would it be irrational, or why do I choose to be rational?

It would be irrational to place a trust in something without justification that it exists because that's the same as believing without justification, which is by definition irrational.

I choose to be rational because it seems to me that rationality is the best (and only) road to the persuit of truth.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Why would it be irrational, or why do I choose to be rational?

It would be irrational to place a trust in something without justification that it exists because that's the same as believing without justification, which is by definition irrational.

I choose to be rational because it seems to me that rationality is the best (and only) road to the persuit of truth.

So, based on prior evidence that rational behavior has yielded truth, you believe it is the best way to get truth.

So tell me, how many times have you used irrationality, or more accurately, faith?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
So, based on prior evidence that rational behavior has yielded truth, you believe it is the best way to get truth.

So tell me, how many times have you used irrationality, or more accurately, faith?

Not just prior evidence but in weighing my understanding of epistemology and how to persue truth. It seems to me that even though we might never reach many more absolute truths than the basics (identity, consciousness, etc.) we can try to approach truth like an asymptote.

In evaluating different approaches to truth it seems to me that some are more likely to succeed than others. Blind faith for instance is like believing based on a dart toss: if a belief isn't tempered with epistemic justification then it seems to me that it's unlikely to be true by sheer statistics.

A leap of faith might by chance lead to a true belief but we can't know (by the epistemic definition of knowledge) that our belief is true even if so. For instance, if I didn't know what the capitol of Missouri is so I threw a dart at a spinning wheel with the names of all state capitols and it so happened to land on "Jefferson City," I would have arrived at a true belief -- but my methodology in this scenario prevents me from knowing that my belief is true; I've just gotten lucky.

Tedious inquiry and skeptical scrutiny work as evidenced by the scientific method and how it's revolutionized our understanding of the universe. Even though it's true that not all beliefs are able to be investigated by the scientific method (such as when they aren't regarding empirically testable things); it's also true that we can still use a rigid methodology to thoroughly investigate claims for truth value. Thus I try never to hold beliefs without justification and I hold beliefs with weak justification very lightly.

To answer your question about how often I behave irrationally (on beliefs for which I have no evidence), it's close to never but I'm human like anyone else. Sometimes I discover that I have a belief without evidence without realizing it, so I'll then investigate to see whether my belief is true as far as I can know or not. If I'm unable to justify the belief I'll drop it even if it's a belief that I like. If I'm only able to justify it weakly, I will only hold the belief lightly and qualify it as a subjective opinion that I could be wrong about when I talk about it.

To be honest, I'm not an atheist by choice. I want to believe in the ultimate father figure/safety net, I want to believe that I'll live in paradise after I die and get to see my loved ones that have passed away again. When I was first losing my faith in God (I used to attend a joint Baptist-Presbytarian church) I took what I now feel to be a shameful approach to the matter: rather than approaching my investigation with an open mind, I was still assuming that what I believed was true and that my doubts simply had to have been misplaced.

However, as I investigated further I found myself unable to defend my beliefs. First I accepted that the best explanation for the diversity of life wasn't a special, individual creation but rather descent with modification... then I lost my belief in the Genesis creation story. Little by little, I was forced into a position that I don't even want to be true -- atheism, and a disbelief in an afterlife -- but as Carl Sagan said, "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
 
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strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
To be honest, I'm not an atheist by choice. I want to believe in the ultimate father figure/safety net, I want to believe that I'll live in paradise after I die and get to see my loved ones that have passed away again. When I was first losing my faith in God (I used to attend a joint Baptist-Presbytarian church) I took what I now feel to be a shameful approach to the matter: rather than approaching my investigation with an open mind, I was still assuming that what I believed was true and that my doubts simply had to have been misplaced.

Now, see here is the first example of faith I've seen from you. You have used faith, so you do know what it is.

However, as I investigated further I found myself unable to defend my beliefs. First I accepted that the best explanation for the diversity of life wasn't a special, individual creation but rather descent with modification... then I lost my belief in the Genesis creation story. Little by little, I was forced into a position that I don't even want to be true -- atheism, and a disbelief in an afterlife

Yes, faith does that to you. I don't know why you are so reluctant to say you've used faith before, when you used it right here.

but as Carl Sagan said, "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

A statement of faith if I ever saw one.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Now, see here is the first example of faith I've seen from you. You have used faith, so you do know what it is.

...

Yes, faith does that to you. I don't know why you are so reluctant to say you've used faith before, when you used it right here.

I've never denied the use of faith in my past. It's precisely that I've done so that I'm able to understand from experience its shortcomings, its irrationality, and why it doesn't seem to me as though it could possibly be a valid path towards truth. It's because I slowly learned why faith isn't a valud approach to truth that I neglect to engage in it anymore; just as a scientist might reject a failed hypothesis after discovering it doesn't work.

strikeviperMKII said:
A statement of faith if I ever saw one.

In what sense is it a statement of faith to decide things based on a critical evaluation of their truth rather than believing things simply because they're comforting? This is a statement against the supposed utility of faith, not a faith statement in itself.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
I've never denied the use of faith in my past. It's precisely that I've done so that I'm able to understand from experience its shortcomings, its irrationality, and why it doesn't seem to me as though it could possibly be a valid path towards truth. It's because I slowly learned why faith isn't a valud approach to truth that I neglect to engage in it anymore; just as a scientist might reject a failed hypothesis after discovering it doesn't work.

And in doing so, you used faith. You don't have to see it that way, but in my experience it takes and act of faith to let go of your faith, then it takes another act of faith to get it back.
'
In what sense is it a statement of faith to decide things based on a critical evaluation of their truth rather than believing things simply because they're comforting? This is a statement against the supposed utility of faith, not a faith statement in itself.

It is a statement of faith.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
And in doing so, you used faith. You don't have to see it that way, but in my experience it takes and act of faith to let go of your faith, then it takes another act of faith to get it back.

No, it was an act of reason which caused me to abandon the utility of faith. Rather than believing things without justification anymore I used reason to determine that I should have justification for things in order to believe them.

strikeviperMKII said:
It is a statement of faith.

:sarcastic But I asked "In what sense is it a statement of faith to decide things based on a critical evaluation of their truth rather than believing things simply because they're comforting?"

Rather than answering the question you've merely repeated your assertion.
 
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