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What is Faith?

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You don't get when you do that as doing philosophy. And it has nothing to do with real as such. It applies to a lot of words like evidence, truth, proof, rational, and so on.
Let me remind you.

I start with three assumptions. They're assumptions because in each case I can't demonstrate their correctness without first assuming they're correct.

They are:

That a world exists external to me.
That my senses are capable of informing me about that world.
That reason is a valid tool.

And I also remind you that you share those assumptions, as you demonstrate by posting on RF, and forming reasoned arguments.

I also note that outside of this sentence there are no absolute truths. But there are still truths.

The self is thus the perceiver of the world external to the self via the senses.

I define objective reality as the world external to the self.

Thus something is real if it exists in reality.

The alternative to existing in reality is to exist solely as a concept or thing imagined in an individual brain. A thing existing only in that manner does not exist in (objective) reality.

Truth is a quality of statements. A statement is true to the extent that it accurately reflects / corresponds with reality.

A fact is an accurate statement about an aspect of reality.

And so on.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am sure there are a lot of fraudulent mediums but I think there are some legitimate ones too.
No, there is no examinable evidence, no satisfactory demonstration, no repeatable experiment. It os not repeatable becaue every communication is different. There is evidentiary support, which means that a legitimate medium can contact a spirit and get information they had no way of knowing because the person to hired them to communicate to their family member told them nothing about that family member they were contacting.
If you know one, we might be able to take this for a run. I'll happily play.

(Though some years ago, when I was offered something similar, I was required to respond in a sort of warm-or-cold? way to answers offered, and to me that makes it a game rather than a demonstration.)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Our lives are but passing clouds, my friend. No matter how tight your grip on what you conceive reality to be, in the end it all slips through your hands.
*WINNER*

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you know one, we might be able to take this for a run. I'll happily play.

(Though some years ago, when I was offered something similar, I was required to respond in a sort of warm-or-cold? way to answers offered, and to me that makes it a game rather than a demonstration.)
I'll let you know sometime soon since I am going to try to contact my late husband. Years ago, we agreed that the surviving spouse would try to contact the other one and we agreed on what the secret question would be. Neither one of us has ever told anyone what that is so there is no way the psychic medium could know that. Unfortunately, I am not sure if he remembers now since that was years ago, but there are other ways of knowing. The key is not to give any information to the psychic medium, but rather just wait for the communication to come through from the other side. There are unique things about everyone's situation that nobody else would ever know about.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, that is what I am saying. To reject our doubt is to reject our humanity.
I don't see any correlation. Why is it human to have doubts about everything?
I have doubts about some things but not about everything.

Aside from God's existence, there are other things I not not doubt. I never doubted my late husband.
I had evidence that my husband would remain faithful just as I have evidence that God exists.
Why should God be any different than anything else in life that we do not doubt?
To reject logic is to reject a mechanism that helps to keep us honest and humble. And for what? So we can pretend we are omniscient? Like we're some sort of gods, ourselves? Or so we don't have to rely on faith and the discomfort of not knowing our own fate?
I do not reject logic. It is logical to have faith in what there is evidence for and there is no logical reason to doubt it if the evidence is good.
Humans don't have to be omniscient to have faith. I have no idea what my fate will be, only God knows my fate.
Gandhi once wrote that "lying is the mother of all violence". And he was right.
I fully agree, and that is in the Baha'i Writings.

“Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 321

That is why I never lie. I'd be lying if I said I have doubt that God exists, since I have no doubt.
As all of mankind's inhumanity begins with our telling ourselves that we have the right to presume that we are as the gods, ourselves; allowed to lord ourselves over others, and over the whole world. As in the story of Eden; it was mankind's original sin. The sin that underpins all others. The sin of presuming ourselves to be the equal of the gods; of possessing the knowledge of good and evil that we can then use to condemn and punish and "correct" any and all that do not serve our false and inflated idea of our own divinity.
How is believing in God presuming we are gods? I do not need to be a god to believe God exists. There is no logical connection.
How does our 'personal belief' equate to lording it over others? There is no logical connection.
I have no idea of my own divinity, quite the contrary.
Even in my own life I have experienced the insanity of rejecting logic and reason in favor of some fantasy that I had gained magical access and insight into the truth of things. When it was nothing more than self-delusion and fear and ego running amok.
I do not have to reject logic and reason in order to believe in God or Messengers of God, quite the contrary.
I have no magical insight into the truth that comes 'from me' so it is not ego. The truth comes from the Messengers of God.
If we don't have doubts when being doubtful and skeptical is both healthy and reasonable, then we should seek help. Because we are losing touch with reality in favor of something that is acting like a drug in us.
It is only your personal opinion that being doubtful and skeptical about the existence of God is both healthy and reasonable.
I have a different personal opinion.
To a heroin addict it is logical to forfeit reality for the sublime euphoria created in him by the drug. Life: not so good. Being high: amazingly good. It's an easy choice to make. It's "logical". And the euphoria feels real. It is, real.

But it's also unnatural. And it's dishonest. Because the euphoria is chemically induced. It's an illusion. And when the effect it creates wears off, the illusion vanishes. Because it was not the truth of his existence.
Comparing a heroin addict to a true believer is the fallacy of false equivalence so it is illogical.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

You are comparing apples and oranges. We all know that chemically induced euphoria is not real because we know that it is chemically induced. We do not know that whatever state of mind that comes from a belief in God is an illusion.

Drug addiction and belief in God are polar opposites. The difference between a heroin addict and a believer is that one is trying to escape reality and the other is trying to face reality, the the reality that God exists and everything that surrounds that reality.

If you assume some kind of euphoria comes from believing in God that is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, because what comes with belief in God is no picnic. I could be doing lots of things that would be more fun and even produce euphoria.
 
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Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I'll let you know sometime soon since I am going to try to contact my late husband. Years ago, we agreed that the surviving spouse would try to contact the other one and we agreed on what the secret question would be. Neither one of us has ever told anyone what that is so there is no way the psychic medium could know that. Unfortunately, I am not sure if he remembers now since that was years ago, but there are other ways of knowing. The key is not to give any information to the psychic medium, but rather just wait for the communication to come through from the other side. There are unique things about everyone's situation that nobody else would ever know about.

I wish you good luck. I hope the medium you've chosen can help you communicate with your late husband.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I wish you good luck. I hope the medium you've chosen can help you communicate with your late husband.
Thanks. If he doesn't work out there are other mediums. I feel confident that I can get through but the only thing that has been holding me back from trying is my feelings, which are mixed, given the circumstances surrounding his death. I will know when the time is right since I am very intuitive.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nobody has called themselves superior. They are more skilled thinkers.
Who are they? Who are you to say I am not a critical thinker and you are? You might believe that you possess the following characteristics and I don't, but that is only your personal opinion. I know I possess those characteristics since I know myself. I could just as easily say you don't possess those characteristics, and in my personal opinion you don't. So do personal opinions determine who is a critical thinker?

What are the characteristics of a skilled critical thinker?

Dispositions: Critical thinkers are skeptical, open-minded, value fair-mindedness, respect evidence and reasoning, respect clarity and precision, look at different points of view, and will change positions when reason leads them to do so.

Critical Thinking and Problem-Solving | University of Tennessee at ... - UTC

Strong critical thinkers demonstrate the following characteristics:

  • inquisitiveness with regard to a wide range of issues
  • concern to become and remain well-informed
  • attentive to opportunities to use critical thinking
  • self-confidence in one’s own abilities to reason
  • open-mindedness regarding divergent world views
  • flexibility in considering alternatives and opinions
  • alertness to likely future events in order to anticipate their consequences
  • understanding of the opinions of other people
  • fair-mindedness in appraising reasoning
  • honesty in facing one’s own biases, prejudices, stereotypes, or egocentric tendencies
  • prudence in suspending, making or altering judgments
  • willingness to reconsider and revise views where honest reflection suggests that change is warranted
(Based on the APA Expert Consensus Delphi Report description of strong critical thinkers.)

12 Characteristics of Strong Critical Thinkers
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Let me remind you.

I start with three assumptions. They're assumptions because in each case I can't demonstrate their correctness without first assuming they're correct.

They are:

That a world exists external to me.
That my senses are capable of informing me about that world.
That reason is a valid tool.

And I also remind you that you share those assumptions, as you demonstrate by posting on RF, and forming reasoned arguments.

I also note that outside of this sentence there are no absolute truths. But there are still truths.

The self is thus the perceiver of the world external to the self via the senses.

I define objective reality as the world external to the self.

Thus something is real if it exists in reality.

The alternative to existing in reality is to exist solely as a concept or thing imagined in an individual brain. A thing existing only in that manner does not exist in (objective) reality.

Truth is a quality of statements. A statement is true to the extent that it accurately reflects / corresponds with reality.

A fact is an accurate statement about an aspect of reality.

And so on.

Yeah, but I am the world as a part of the world.

So how does causality work in a world external to you in regards to you. How do what is out there get into you in thoughts, if it is a world external to you. Then how you can know of it as it is external to you?
So what world are you in? And where do you come from if not that world?
So no, reason is not a valid tool, because you can't even understand that you are in the world as a part of it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nobody has called themselves superior. They are more skilled thinkers. If you judge your worth by that, then I suppose you might feel inferior.
I don't judge my worth by that but if I did I would not feel inferior since I am a skilled thinker.

Conversely, if you judge your worth by that then you might feel superior.
I know what I judge my worth by. What do you judge your worth by?
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is it human to have doubts about everything?
I have doubts about some things but not about everything.
Skepticism is one of the best ideas man has ever conceived, and philosophical skepticism is at the vanguard of human thought. Most people have little interest or education in that area. Ever since Descartes, philosophers have learned to doubt all propositions beyond the claim of being a conscious agent. But you're correct that that kind of thinking doesn't characterize most of humanity.
I do not reject logic. It is logical to have faith in what there is evidence for
You haven't learned the rules of reason. I'm sure that you can't see the self-contradiction (incoherence) in that comment.
I do not have to reject logic and reason in order to believe in God or Messengers of God
Yes, you do, because reason tells you not to believe what you believe - if you learn how to apply it properly.
It is only your personal opinion that being doubtful and skeptical about the existence of God is both healthy and reasonable.
This again? When don't you write that? No, it's not only his personal opinion. Millions of people agree, and I am another one. Last time I posted that about millions agreeing, you reflexively and uncritically called it an ad populum fallacy. It is not. It is an easily confirmed statement of fact. You will never understand that not all opinions are equal, and will continue making that comment indefinitely to demonstrate it.
Comparing a heroin addict to a true believer is the fallacy of false equivalence
The comparison is quite apt. I've made a similar one using cigarettes. Here's one example here from last month:

"Yes, she feels that she needs to cling to her life raft of a belief, but who put her in that position? Cui bono? I'd say that that need is created by that belief. It can be a psychological dependence of sorts, the loss of which can be terrifying and even lead to withdrawal symptoms. You tunneled out, too. What was that like for you? For me, it was a year of praying to a god I no longer fully believed in to give me a sign if I was wrong and making a mistake turning my back on that religion and its god. Eventually, that stopped, just like my craving for cigarettes when I gave them up, also over about a year."
What fallacy is contradicting yourself?

Self-contradiction or self-contradictory can refer to: Auto-antonym, a word with multiple meanings of which one is the reverse of another. Formal fallacy, a pattern of reasoning rendered invalid by a flaw in its logical structure.

Self-contradiction - Wikipedia

Did you have a reason for posting that to me? Do you think it relates to the quote above it? Are you conflating superior thinking with a superior person? It appears so.

Conversely, if you judge your worth by that then you might feel superior.
Didn't I make my position on that clear already? I guess not. No, I do not judge my worth by my thinking skills or any of the other think I have learned to do, but your insecurity suggests that you do, since it was your thinking and not your character or worth that was being discussed, yet that's what you seem to have read.

Too bad that you have boxed yourself in and can't be reached any more. There is nothing any critical thinker can teach you. Why? Because of an impervious confirmation basis. There is no way for you see where you are wrong where you are if you won't dispassionately evaluate evidence before your confirmation bias rejects the possibility. You will never stop experiencing this as personal attack and insult. You will never learn how to actually properly identify an unsound argument or a fallacy in it. Your RF life would be so much more satisfying for you if you stopped trying to usurp reason from critical thinkers and claiming it for yourself, or even could consider the possibility that you believe what you believe because it is comfortable (by faith).

Who would disagree with that? Nobody else, but apparently you do, and are too proud to relent at all. You seem to think as little about belief by faith as any critical thinker, which must be why you fight to be seen as a sound thinker, but that's not going to happen as long as you keep making these errors, and you will for years to come. That's what I mean by being hemmed in. There is a way to correct a false belief, but you'd have to do it to obtain that benefit. If you noticed my comment in the quote above, "You tunneled out, too," it was in reference to this process - critical thought. Thank God I never lost that ability in my Christian years or I'd still be stuck there, too. There's no other way out.

So, resign yourself to reading replies like this one for the next several years. Because what you're doing is analogous to stolen valor: "Stolen valor is an American term for the behavior of military impostors: individuals who lie about their military service." Those are people who want the credit without doing the work, and those that did it resent them for it will go to great lengths to expose them. That's how the world feels about this pathological liar Santos for stealing credit for degrees he never earned, for example, and other fraudulent claims. That's how I feel about your stolen reasoning claim. It's like claiming a credential or degree that you never earned.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That is why I never lie. I'd be lying if I said I have doubt that God exists, since I have no doubt.

And I'd be lying if I said I'm certain any deities exist, including the biblical God. Despite my best efforts, I have yet to prove the existence of any gods. I've been unable to demonstrate the existence of any gods, just as I can demonstrate the existence of earthbound human spirits and nonhuman entities. I do, however, believe that it's probable that deities could exist because I believe in supernatural phenomena, but no deities have responded to me when I called them by name and attempted to speak directly to them. I assume that if I can detect the presence of human spirits and nonhuman entities as a psychic medium, I can surely detect the presence of a deity. I've discussed this with other mediums, and they've acknowledged that while they think God and other deities exist, they are unable to demonstrate their existence. I've made similar inquiries to a few earthbound spirits, but they either dodged the question or diverted the conversation. My spirit guides responded to my questions about the afterlife by telling me that I would have to wait and see for myself, and they diverted our conversation when I asked a question about God or even mentioned talking to an earthbound spirit about God. It is as if asking precise questions to human spirits and other nonhuman entities about God or other deities is taboo and rigorously forbidden. But I haven't given up on the possibility of meeting a human spirit, a spirit guide, or some other nonhuman entity who will inadvertently answer the question of whether or not deities exist. As previously stated, I believe some deities may exist in the spirit world, but I'm not completely convinced, so I'll remain an agnostic.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did you have a reason for posting that to me? Do you think it relates to the quote above it? Are you conflating superior thinking with a superior person? It appears so.
I caught my error in reasoning after I read your entire sentence. After that I edited my post. ;)
I suggest you read my edited post.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And I'd be lying if I said I'm certain any deities exist, including the biblical God. Despite my best efforts, I have yet to prove the existence of any gods. I've been unable to demonstrate the existence of any gods,
Nor have I been able to demonstrate the existence of God, but that is not why I believe in God.
I'd be lying if I said I believe in God because I can demonstrate the existence of God. Nobody can demonstrate that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skepticism is one of the best ideas man has ever conceived, and philosophical skepticism is at the vanguard of human thought.
I have no problem with skepticism but that does not mean I have doubts about everything.
Do you have doubts about your critical thinking abilities?
You haven't learned the rules of reason. I'm sure that you can't see the self-contradiction (incoherence) in that comment.
There is no contradiction. It is logical to have faith in what there is good evidence for, especially when there is no proof.
Yes, you do, because reason tells you not to believe what you believe - if you learn how to apply it properly.
Correction: Your reason tells me not to believe what believe. I am not going to apply your reason since I think it is faulty.
This again? When don't you write that? No, it's not only his personal opinion. Millions of people agree, and I am another one.
Are you going to say that 'being doubtful and skeptical about the existence of God is both healthy and reasonable' is true because millions of people agree with that statement? If that is what you are claiming it is ad populum.
Last time I posted that about millions agreeing, you reflexively and uncritically called it an ad populum fallacy. It is not. It is an easily confirmed statement of fact.
That millions of atheists agree with you is a fact, but it is also a fact that many, many more millions of believers agree with me. So what does that prove?
You will never understand that not all opinions are equal, and will continue making that comment indefinitely to demonstrate it.
Did I ever say all opinions are equal? I don't think they are.
Too bad that you have boxed yourself in and can't be reached any more. There is nothing any critical thinker can teach you. Why?
I am a critical thinker so I can think for myself, but as a critical thinker I can also learn from others.
Too bad that you have boxed yourself in and can't be reached any more. That is what happens when people don't think critically.

You might have some, but you do not have all the qualities of a critical thinker. Critical thinkers know that they don't know everything.
Your complete intolerance of any opinions other than your own shows that there are certain characteristics that you lack.

Strong critical thinkers demonstrate the following characteristics:

  • inquisitiveness with regard to a wide range of issues
  • concern to become and remain well-informed
  • attentive to opportunities to use critical thinking
  • self-confidence in one’s own abilities to reason
  • open-mindedness regarding divergent world views
  • flexibility in considering alternatives and opinions
  • alertness to likely future events in order to anticipate their consequences
  • understanding of the opinions of other people
  • fair-mindedness in appraising reasoning
  • honesty in facing one’s own biases, prejudices, stereotypes, or egocentric tendencies
  • prudence in suspending, making or altering judgments
  • willingness to reconsider and revise views where honest reflection suggests that change is warranted
(Based on the APA Expert Consensus Delphi Report description of strong critical thinkers.)

 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Nor have I been able to demonstrate the existence of God, but that is not why I believe in God.
I'd be lying if I said I believe in God because I can demonstrate the existence of God. Nobody can demonstrate that.

I honestly don't know if there are any gods, and I'd feel the same way if I weren't a psychic medium capable of detecting human spirits and other entities. Despite being a psychic medium, I am not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I cannot be in all places at the same time, nor can I search all of space and time to determine whether or not any deities exist. I once had a very genuine faith in the God of the Bible, but I was deeply disappointed and let down by sincerely believing in God, and I refuse to open myself up in that way again. I've decided that religion will never become another emotional crutch for me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I once had a very genuine faith in the God of the Bible, but I was deeply disappointed and let down by sincerely believing in God, and I refuse to open myself up in that way again. I've decided that religion will never become another emotional crutch for me.
I never had a belief in God as a child and I was not raised as a Christian. In fact, I never even read one page of the Bible till about 10 years ago, when I started posting on forums and talking to Christians.

I suppose belief in God can be an emotional crutch for some people, but it is not logical to conclude that it is an emotional crutch for all people.
Only the person knows if it is an emotional crutch for them or not, if they are self-aware. If they are not self-aware they might not realize it is an emotional crutch for them.

I know that I believe in God because of the evidence I see for God, not because I need an emotional crutch. Like you, and unlike Christians and other Baha'is, I have struggled to believe that God is loving, but I realize that is not a reason to believe God does not exist.
 
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