What is faith?

[Willamena]

It's usually a mistake to use a dictionary entry as though it were a mathematical formula, anyway. In linguistics, 2 + 2 does not necessarily equal 4.

The point wasn't to be definitive, but to point out that what was suggested (faith defies probability) is the opposite of what the dictionary indicates.

2 + 2 also does not equal -2 - 2.

 

[blackout]

2+2 does however equal 2x2.

Does this MEAN something?
That depends on how you are focused I guess.

I for one LOVE the interplay of multiple/possible meanings.
Different "skools" of thought drill the particular "type cast" meanings into us
that they want us to think and see and reason and believe by.

But when you throw out all the type cast definitions,
and "spelling rules".....
(drilled in by years and years of "right""wrong" multiple choice tests)
WHOLE NEW AND WONDERFUL MEANINGS ABOUND.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Yes. It's the same function of 'trust' at work, in things that are not (or not yet) verified or verifiable. That the sun "will rise" is that it has not yet risen. God to me is the unknown/unknowable/undefinable/ineffable, and hence faith in God is faith in something intangible. The context changes a bit for "faith in myself," as that refers to things I might do or present myself as at some future time. Similar context for the "will respond" while it's not yet happened.

Thank you, Willamena. For me, there are qualitative differences in the way faith is used because of the difference in subject-object world view and nature of the verifiability of evidence. But it is not important that we all reach consensus on what faith means - just that we understand what is meant if the term is used in a thought/concept/rationale that is important to us. Personally, my thoughts seldom use the term. For example, I would not say 'i have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.' I would simply say I know it will. Similarly, I would not say I have faith that it is possible for one to realize oneness with God, I know it is.

On a different note, it is interesting that you bring up the word 'trust' in connection with faith. Many other posters have done so also, as does Webster. I am not sure what you mean by 'function of trust' but for me, faith and trust are not equivalent although trust comes from faith and is closely associated.

One last comment -

.... That's not what my dictionary says ("Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing").

Although I like your definition, for me personally faith is not a 'confident belief.' Rather a 'confident belief' is the result of faith.

Regards

 

[Willamena]

Personally, my thoughts seldom use the term.

Mine, either.

On a different note, it is interesting that you bring up the word 'trust' in connection with faith. Many other posters have done so also, as does Webster. I am not sure what you mean by 'function of trust' but for me, faith and trust are not equivalent although trust comes from faith and is closely associated.

One last comment - "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing"
Although I like your definition, for me personally faith is not a 'confident belief.' Rather a 'confident belief' is the result of faith.

Well, I was quoting the dictionary to make a point. My definition would vary a little, it would be longer, for one, as it would attempt to take into account the relationship between subject and objects. For another, I hold all belief to be "confident," so that seems a superfluous qualifier. And if I were really getting picky, a "person" and an "idea" are both "things." I really liked the definition doppleganger gave earlier that I felt inherently recognized objects as the assigned form of things.

For me trust is something we do, placing it in objects. It's like freely giving away a piece of ourselves to things that are inherently uncertain in a particular context, so that they can gain firmer existence. It's part of the way we shape "our" world. Of course, not all things require trust for all people, only things whose uncertainty is apparent and in which we must nevertheless depend. Where "trust" is the verb, the action of giving that adds to a thing's certainty, faith is something we hold onto on our end as a noun. Having faith is a possession, and placing trust is a gift --give and keep.

 

[Smoke]

(faith defies probability) is the opposite of what the dictionary indicates.

What I said was certainly not the opposite of what the dictionary says, and was certainly a better example of faith than a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.

 

[autonomous1one1]

....placing trust is a gift --give and keep.

Thanks again. I always learn something from your posts and will go back and check Dopp's definition one more time. Also, I like you trust, gift, and the give and keep. My first thought was that the faith defined in my first post in this thread is itself a gift also, for it is not something that is totally within one's control.
Best Wishes,
a..1

 

[blackout]

The point wasn't to be definitive, but to point out that what was suggested (faith defies probability) is the opposite of what the dictionary indicates.

2 + 2 also does not equal -2 - 2.

Patty?! Did you do that on purpose? -2 -2 or was it just a "dash"?

I realized while I was "stepping"(exercising) before,
that you had typed out an "inverse" "positive/negative" of sorts.

After all we are talking here about a rather inverse "positive/negative" set of definitions for the same word........ "faith".
I just found that interesting.

(either I'm very quick witted....:cover:
or I'm slow to pick up on the obvious...:help

Cool post either way!

 

[Jeremiah]

Not specifically, no; more like we have given over formlessness to God, as forms are known/knowable. It is an image of God as imageless, a form of God as formlessness, a definition of God as undefined, all of which defy explanation (they don't explain anything).

I see what you are saying in the first bit, and I agree that claiming God as the formlessness linguistically eliminates God as the form; but ironically, as I see it, I can only see (metaphor) what you are saying because I have that foundation of understanding the formlessness in place, and in understanding duality I can draw on unity, drawing it all back together like a rubber band, so that when it is said that "God is the unknowable" it is an implicit acknolwledgement that the formless is also every form that we can give it, and that describes something both greater than/lesser of and co-existing with and as God --me. The force that brings order from chaos, figuratively speaking, is imagination.

I can't address the Abrahamic stuff, sorry, don't know enough about that.

Don't get too hung up on the first sentence it was foolish of me to put it there.

As far as Abraham I am still working on it myself although I was greatly aided by Kierkegaard. When I feel I understand his work well enough I'll attempt a post. I wouldn't hold your breath though, Kierkegaard had much to say about faith.

 

[Fluffy]

Faith is a psychological state which people use in order to hold beliefs without requiring justification. It can also be used to "top up" those beliefs which have some justification but not to the extent that an individual would normally find convincing. It is a suspension of scepticism and, according to my moral system, immoral.

I believe there are 3 useful categories on the scale of knowledge: Insufficient justification to make a belief reasonable, sufficient justification to make a belief reasonable and sufficient justification to make a belief knowledge. Faith, in my understanding, refers to everything in the first category. Some people lump the first two categories together and prefer to use faith to refer to both and distinguish from the third which they normally call knowledge. If that is the case then my comments on faith only apply to faith that has insufficient justification to make it reasonable.

 

[Willamena]

What I said was certainly not the opposite of what the dictionary says, and was certainly a better example of faith than a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Which is the more trustworthy notion, that the sun will rise tomorrow or that it will not?

 

[Smoke]

Which is the more trustworthy notion, that the sun will rise tomorrow or that it will not?

Oh, have it your way. Belief that defies probability is the opposite of faith. People who believe the evidence are the faithful ones, and those who believe the improbable are faithless. To embrace religion is to abandon faith.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Mine, either.

Hi. Even though it is probably obvious, I should have added to my previous post 'except as it is important to others.' I know this is the case with you also, or why would we even be discussing it here.

 

[PureX]

Oh, have it your way. Belief that defies probability is the opposite of faith. People who believe the evidence are the faithful ones, and those who believe the improbable are faithless. To embrace religion is to abandon faith.

I disagree. I think to do either is an act of faith. It's just the subject/object of that faith that's different.

 

[Willamena]

Oh, have it your way. Belief that defies probability is the opposite of faith. People who believe the evidence are the faithful ones, and those who believe the improbable are faithless. To embrace religion is to abandon faith.

*sigh* Sort of. I wouldn't dare go so far as to declare anyone faithless; such a claim is a demonstration of ignorance. But if we limit our conversation once again to the concept itself, then yes, belief in something improbable is not faith, not even belief because people don't believe in things that are improbable. They tend to disbelieve in those, and believe in the probable.

 

[Jeremiah]

Faith is to believe in something not have belief of something.

 

[Willamena]

Faith is to believe in something not have belief of something.

What is the distinction you make between those two? Do you have an example?

 

[Jeremiah]

What is the distinction you make between those two? Do you have an example?

Faith is selfless devotion to a cause that you trust to be greater than yourself. It maintained and achieved by passion and loyalty.


It has nothing to do with if my pen (or even God) is real or not real.

 

[logician]

Most of the "faith" I've seen is unquestioning belief in the impossible.

 

[PureX]

Most of the "faith" I've seen is unquestioning belief in the impossible.

But couldn't that be because that's how you're defining "faith"?

 

[Willamena]

Faith is to believe in something not have belief of something.

Faith is selfless devotion to a cause that you trust to be greater than yourself. It maintained and achieved by passion and loyalty.

It has nothing to do with if my pen (or even God) is real or not real.

Ah, I make no such distinction in my thinking. Whether a thing is "greater than myself" or a pen, it is equally believed in.

To me belief is an expression of self, a part of who I am. Whether I am believing in a "something greater" or a pen, it's still me believing in them.