What is it with the Guns?

[LuisDantas]

Aye, but government needs to let me draft the legislation.
Our incompetent leaders just muck things up.

Just act more like Americastanians!

That would do something about our population levels...

 

[Revoltingest]

That would do something about our population levels...

But wouldn't raising them destroy what's left of the rain forest even faster?

 

[Apex]

Aye, but government needs to let me draft the legislation.
Our incompetent leaders just muck things up.

Case in point, one of the legislators (Dem. Rep. DeGette) was a lead sponsor for banning high-capacity magazines. She eventually made it clear that she didn't even know what a high-capacity magazine was, much less how it functioned. Yet she was willing to ban them anyways. And not only did she not know what a magazine was, neither did her staff who only wound up shoving her foot further into her mouth when they released a statement saying DeGette misspoke and meant to refer to "clips".

 

[Revoltingest]

Case in point, one of the legislators (Dem. Rep. DeGette) was a lead sponsor for banning high-capacity magazines. She eventually made it clear that she didn't even know what a high-capacity magazine was, much less how it functioned. Yet she was willing to ban them anyways. And not only did she not know what a magazine was, neither did her staff who only wound up shoving her foot further into her mouth when they released a statement saying DeGette misspoke and meant to refer to "clips".

It's not important to understand the issue.....it's how you feel about it that matters.

 

[dust1n]

Case in point, one of the legislators (Dem. Rep. DeGette) was a lead sponsor for banning high-capacity magazines. She eventually made it clear that she didn't even know what a high-capacity magazine was, much less how it functioned. Yet she was willing to ban them anyways. And not only did she not know what a magazine was, neither did her staff who only wound up shoving her foot further into her mouth when they released a statement saying DeGette misspoke and meant to refer to "clips".

I wonder how many politicians who write some many rules for abortions actually know the autonomy of the female sexual reproduction system.

“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down.”

That being said, it's shocking how not involved with anything Congress is, but still makes laws about things they aren't vaguely familiar with.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder how many politicians who write some many rules for abortions actually know the autonomy of the female sexual reproduction system.

“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down.”

That being said, it's shocking how not involved with anything Congress is, but still makes laws about things they aren't vaguely familiar with.

Worse yet, they're largely lawyers making laws about their victims.
So knowing what they're doing can be even worse.

 

[metis]

Let's take a look at a couple of your statements:
1. Chicago can ban guns all day long but when a criminal can walk into a gun shop in another state 15 miles away and buy whatever they want, the laws are useless.
WRONG
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. If a person purchases a handgun in the state that they are not a resident the handgun must be transferred by a FFL dealer in the purchasing state to a FFL dealer in the purchasers state. Thus a person from Chicago can not go into a gun shop in another state, purchase the weapon and take it with them.

Correct but not correct at the same time. According to the CPD, most illegal guns in the Chicago area they say were purchased in Indiana.

If I buy a gun in Indiana because I'm a resident, I can then turn around and sell it to whomever I want, and who's to know the difference?

 

[Revoltingest]

Correct but not correct at the same time. According to the CPD, most illegal guns in the Chicago area they say were purchased in Indiana.

If I buy a gun in Indiana because I'm a resident, I can then turn around and sell it to whomever I want, and who's to know the difference?

There are some restrictions upon whom you may sell it to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Indiana#Ownership_and_purchase

 

[metis]

There are some restrictions upon whom you may sell it to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Indiana#Ownership_and_purchase

Yes, "legal" restrictions. But once the gun is in circulation, there's no way to track it from there unless someone gets caught.

To me, these de facto loopholes need to be stopped, and that needs to be done at the national level so there's some uniformity between the states. And then we need to throw the book at anyone caught with an illegal gun and/or selling an illegal gun, which both the Brits and French did to reduce their violent crime rate back in the 1950's-60's. In the UK, one could get up to 10 years for mere possession of an illegal gun, but that was rarely invoked unless used in the commission of a crime.

Question: how often in the news do we see someone getting murdered locally? How many times in the news do we see burglars or home invaders getting killed? I watch and read the local news a lot, as I'm sure you do, and it's lopsided in the favor of the former, not latter. The idea that having our proliferation of guns makes us "friendlier", as the NRA claims, is insanity on steroids.

 

[Revoltingest]

Question: how often in the news do we see someone getting murdered locally? How many times in the news do we see burglars or home invaders getting killed?

I don't keep track.
But I notice that the mainstream media seldom report on legitimate use of guns for self defense.
It's much more common in fringe media though.
This is not a statistically significant approach though.
Spotlight fallacy, you know.

I watch and read the local news a lot, as I'm sure you do, and it's lopsided in the favor of the former, not latter. The idea that having our proliferation of guns makes us "friendlier", as the NRA claims, is insanity on steroids.

Source for this NRA claim?

 

[esmith]

That is only true for guns like pistols with require a background check. If a state does not require any background check or ID (which last I knew was the case in 30 states including PA and Nevada) then your point is invalid.

Hate to bust your bubble, but you again have failed to research your statements. Now I'm not going to research every state for you, but since I reside in a state neighboring Nevada I will educate you on Nevada's laws concerning purchase of firearms. Now you seemed to be fixated on CA residents purchasing firearms in NV. So, let's start with CA laws first. Let say you are a CA resident and go to NV and purchase a firearm from a private party and take it back to CA. Well you just broke a CA law California law stipulates: From CA Firearm Laws
You can not purchase a firearm outside of the state and bring it back in to CA
You can purchase a firearm outside of CA but you must have a FFL holder in the purchasing state send the firearm to a FFL holder in CA.

So let's assume you as a CA resident go to Nevada and purchase a long gun from a FFL licensed dealer. First the dealer can not sell you the weapon if it violates CA law (Federal Law) He can not sell you a handgun.Federal Law. Now lets assume you purchase a long gun in NV from a FFL dealer and it is not restricted in CA. So where is the problem? The problem is that CA wants to be able to have paperwork on you as a CA resident for all firearm transactions made on a CA state license/ID. Where have you run afoul of CA law if you bring the long gun into CA. As far as CA is concerned, that long gun bought on a CA license/ID is an unregistered firearm in CA DOJ system that among other things, most likely, did not have a 10 day California waiting period on it. So, if you did by the firearm you would have to have the NV FFL dealer send the firearm to a FFL dealer in CA.

So obviously you have been reading the propaganda from anti-gun site such as the McClatchyDC site on a report from the Sacramento Bee

Yes, but they love pointing how gun laws don't work in a city like Chicago or DC, while much of the reason for those laws being toothless is the lack of federal regulation which the NRA has blocked at every chance.

.
Again blaming the NRA for the court systems in Chicago, CD, and LA and probably more for not enforcing Federal Laws
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa...new-york-prosecuted-fewest-federal-gun-crimes

Again reading propaganda from the anit-gun sites I assume?

Yeah, except that the NRA has refused to actually negotiate laws. Instead they simply appose any increase in regulation. So the laws that are written are completely devoid of opinions from gun owners represented by the NRA.

The NRA does not make the laws, so how could they negotiate a law. But I'm assuming that you are saying that the NRA lobbies congress not to pass a law. Yeah, your right, because the members of the NRA do not want a certain law passed. You have your anti-gun lobbyist, we have our lobbyist. I would just love to see a Presidential candidate (Hillary probably) run on a anti-gun platform.

 

[Underhill]

Hate to bust your bubble, but you again have failed to research your statements. Now I'm not going to research every state for you, but since I reside in a state neighboring Nevada I will educate you on Nevada's laws concerning purchase of firearms. Now you seemed to be fixated on CA residents purchasing firearms in NV. So, let's start with CA laws first. Let say you are a CA resident and go to NV and purchase a firearm from a private party and take it back to CA. Well you just broke a CA law California law stipulates: From CA Firearm Laws
You can not purchase a firearm outside of the state and bring it back in to CA
You can purchase a firearm outside of CA but you must have a FFL holder in the purchasing state send the firearm to a FFL holder in CA.

So let's assume you as a CA resident go to Nevada and purchase a long gun from a FFL licensed dealer. First the dealer can not sell you the weapon if it violates CA law (Federal Law) He can not sell you a handgun.Federal Law. Now lets assume you purchase a long gun in NV from a FFL dealer and it is not restricted in CA. So where is the problem? The problem is that CA wants to be able to have paperwork on you as a CA resident for all firearm transactions made on a CA state license/ID. Where have you run afoul of CA law if you bring the long gun into CA. As far as CA is concerned, that long gun bought on a CA license/ID is an unregistered firearm in CA DOJ system that among other things, most likely, did not have a 10 day California waiting period on it. So, if you did by the firearm you would have to have the NV FFL dealer send the firearm to a FFL dealer in CA.

So obviously you have been reading the propaganda from anti-gun site such as the McClatchyDC site on a report from the Sacramento Bee

So if the dealer is not required to check ID, how in hell is he supposed to know you are from California? But yes, California may not be the best subject since they are the most anal of all the states when it comes to gun laws. I know for a fact that I can walk into a PA gun shop and bring home a gun with no checks whatsoever. Even more so from an individual since there is no requirement for anything. I bought my last 12 gauge from the back of a guys pickup truck and it was perfectly legal with no checks, no registration, no worries. So how effective is any limit on sales to criminals or the mentally unstable when there is no law covering private sale in most states?

.

Again blaming the NRA for the court systems in Chicago, CD, and LA and probably more for not enforcing Federal Laws
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/03/28/chicago-los-angeles-new-york-prosecuted-fewest-federal-gun-crimes

Again reading propaganda from the anit-gun sites I assume?

No, I am blaming them for what they are responsible for. I know a lot of gun owners who are fed up with their obstructionist stance. They didn't used to be this way.

The NRA does not make the laws, so how could they negotiate a law. But I'm assuming that you are saying that the NRA lobbies congress not to pass a law. Yeah, your right, because the members of the NRA do not want a certain law passed. You have your anti-gun lobbyist, we have our lobbyist. I would just love to see a Presidential candidate (Hillary probably) run on a anti-gun platform.

The NRA is a lobbying group first and foremost. So yeah, they can negotiate laws. It is what lobbyist do. The health insurance lobby assisted with the health care law. The lobby for the teachers union assist with writing education rules. It's what most lobbyist do. Instead the NRA seems very good at 4 things. Spreading propaganda, collecting memberships, backing pro-gun (anti gun regulation) candidates and safety training. They justify the first 3 with the fourth.

 

[metis]

I don't keep track.
But I notice that the mainstream media seldom report on legitimate use of guns for self defense.
It's much more common in fringe media though.
This is not a statistically significant approach though.
Spotlight fallacy, you know.

Source for this NRA claim?

Was on the t.v. news whereas I heard the head of the NRA speak, probably going back about 7-8 years ago. It's not the only bizarre thing he's said and supported, btw.

Also, your above statement on the "mainstream media" is really quite bizarre because, if they didn't cover it, then how do you know it happened? Mental telepathy?

Anyhow, the reality as it shows up in the real stats conducted by real studies indicates that having a loaded gun in one's house is just as effective as having a security blanket wrapped around one's body, but with one exception, namely that at least the security blanket doesn't hurt anyone. However, try convincing the boys-with-their-toys element of that.

But you'll never agree with this, so...

 

[Revoltingest]

Was on the t.v. news whereas I heard the head of the NRA speak, probably going back about 7-8 years ago. It's not the only bizarre thing he's said and supported, btw.

A decade old memory of a TV broadcast, eh?
It reminds me of people who have a clear memory of Sara Palin saying she could see Russia from her house.
They don't believe me when I explain they remember Tina Fey saying it on SNL.

Also, your above statement on the "mainstream media" is really quite bizarre because, if they didn't cover it, then how do you know it happened? Mental telepathy?

Did you not read the post to which you responded?
There are media other than those mainstream, who tend to not report good news, ie, postitive outcome in a shooting.

Anyhow, the reality as it shows up in the real stats conducted by real studies indicates that having a loaded gun in one's house is just as effective as having a security blanket wrapped around one's body, but with one exception, namely that at least the security blanket doesn't hurt anyone. However, try convincing the boys-with-their-toys element of that.
But you'll never agree with this, so...

I disagree because I don't buy the mere citation of the word, "statistics", as though using the word alone is an argument.
One needs actual data presented as part of a cogent argument in order to sway those who disagree.
Even then, one of the big problems is that studies are typically so general as to be inapplicable to many individuals.
Example: They don't discriminate between trained & untrained gun owners.

 

[metis]

A decade old memory of a TV broadcast, eh?
It reminds me of people who have a clear memory of Sara Palin saying she could see Russia from her house.
They don't believe me when I explain they remember Tina Fey saying it on SNL.

Did you not read the post to which you responded?
There are media other than those mainstream, who tend to not report good news, ie, postitive outcome in a shooting.

I disagree because I don't buy the mere citation of the word, "statistics", as though using the word alone is an argument.
One needs actual data presented as part of a cogent argument in order to sway those who disagree.
Even then, one of the big problems is that studies are typically so general as to be inapplicable to many individuals.
Example: They don't discriminate between trained & untrained gun owners.

The "argument" is out there with the actual studies that have been done, but those serious and independent studies ain't gonna change the mind of those whom are not interested is such studies. The rest of the above post of yours I'm just going to ignore.

 

[Revoltingest]

The "argument" is out there with the actual studies that have been done, but those serious and independent studies ain't gonna change the mind of those whom are not interested is such studies. The rest of the above post of yours I'm just going to ignore.

"The argument is out there"?
I know that you believe that you have
The Truth, & that the truth is out there.
Oh, no.....I'll need more than that.

Btw, the X-Files is returning to TV
For your viewing pleasure.....

 

[Revoltingest]

The "argument" is out there with the actual studies that have been done, but those serious and independent studies ain't gonna change the mind of those whom are not interested is such studies. The rest of the above post of yours I'm just going to ignore.

Hey, I just noticed something interesting......
I'm ignoring the argument you did not make.
You're ignoring the argument I did make.

If I weren't so mature & intellectual, I'd be saying.....
I WIN!
I WIN!
YOU LOSE!
AND I WIN!

We're fortunate that I'm above such childish gloating, eh.

 

[esmith]

So if the dealer is not required to check ID, how in hell is he supposed to know you are from California? But yes, California may not be the best subject since they are the most anal of all the states when it comes to gun laws. I know for a fact that I can walk into a PA gun shop and bring home a gun with no checks whatsoever. Even more so from an individual since there is no requirement for anything. I bought my last 12 gauge from the back of a guys pickup truck and it was perfectly legal with no checks, no registration, no worries. So how effective is any limit on sales to criminals or the mentally unstable when there is no law covering private sale in most states?

I do not know where you are getting your information, that is if you are even bothering to try.

If you purchase a firearm from a FFL dealer they are required to do a background check. This is required in every state in the US. Therefor if you go into a gun shop anywhere and purchase a firearm and they do not do a background or meet other qualifications of a background check (for example my State exempts anyone with a CCW from a background check) they are in violation of a Federal Law. A "gun shop" is NOT a private party and a "private party" transaction does not require background checks in all states. All FFI dealers are required to check your ID. The State of Pennsylvania use a POC (point of contact) system. In other words the state does not use the FBI for the background check, Pennsylvania uses the State Police database.

Now since you seem to have a problem with research I will do it for you. The following is from Brady Law

Since 1998, the Brady Act has been implemented through the NICS. NICS is used to check the backgrounds of prospective purchasers of both handguns and long guns, and for persons who redeem a pawned firearm.2 The Brady Act does not apply to unlicensed firearm sellers. States have the option of serving as a state Point of Contact (POC) and conducting their own NICS checks, or having those checks performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)

.

Now for Pennsylvania: If you care to read the following Pennsylvania Background Checks you will come across the following:

In addition, to sell a handgun or short-barreled rifle or shotgun, a dealer must:

• Require the purchaser to complete a purchase application, which includes a statement that the purchaser is the actual buyer of the firearm. The dealer must retain a copy of the application for at least 20 years, mail the original to PSP within 14 days of the sale, and provide one copy to the purchaser;
• Record the approval number on the application; and
• If the purchaser passes the background check, deliver the firearm to the purchaser securely wrapped and unloaded.

Now obviously you are confused since the above directly contradicts your statement that you can go into a "gun shop" and purchase a firearm without any checks. That is unless the dealer was breaking the Law. If so turn him in.

No, I am blaming them for what they are responsible for. I know a lot of gun owners who are fed up with their obstructionist stance. They didn't used to be this way.

Just what do you assume that the NRA is responsible for. I have been a Life Member of the NRA for over 40 years and they have always fought for our rights. Now you object to what we want but until you and others have the political power to oppose that the existing laws will stand. I hope other like-minded firearm owners in states with oppressive firearm laws have the political power to change them.

The NRA is a lobbying group first and foremost. So yeah, they can negotiate laws. It is what lobbyist do. The health insurance lobby assisted with the health care law. The lobby for the teachers union assist with writing education rules. It's what most lobbyist do. Instead the NRA seems very good at 4 things. Spreading propaganda, collecting memberships, backing pro-gun (anti gun regulation) candidates and safety training. They justify the first 3 with the fourth.

Sorry you are so bitter. What you call propaganda is just your objection to what we stand for. Sure we (the NRA) back pro-gun politicians, doesn't your like minded groups back anti-gun politicians. I noticed you added "safety training" to one of the most important aspects of the NRA. The State Government even recognizes the expertise of NRA instructions. Did you know that before you can get a CCW you have to attend a class given by a NRA instructor or meet other qualifications (for instance, my state accepts DD214 as a qualification except for the "Enhanced License")

 

[Underhill]

I do not know where you are getting your information, that is if you are even bothering to try.

If you purchase a firearm from a FFL dealer they are required to do a background check. This is required in every state in the US. Therefor if you go into a gun shop anywhere and purchase a firearm and they do not do a background or meet other qualifications of a background check (for example my State exempts anyone with a CCW from a background check) they are in violation of a Federal Law. A "gun shop" is NOT a private party and a "private party" transaction does not require background checks in all states. All FFI dealers are required to check your ID. The State of Pennsylvania use a POC (point of contact) system. In other words the state does not use the FBI for the background check, Pennsylvania uses the State Police database.

Now since you seem to have a problem with research I will do it for you. The following is from Brady Law

It's been a while since I've purchased a gun at a dealer. My mistake. Last I heard I thought the Brady Bill was overturned by the courts thanks to an NRA lawsuit. It appears only parts of it were overturned.

Now for Pennsylvania: If you care to read the following Pennsylvania Background Checks you will come across the following:

In addition, to sell a handgun or short-barreled rifle or shotgun, a dealer must:

• Require the purchaser to complete a purchase application, which includes a statement that the purchaser is the actual buyer of the firearm. The dealer must retain a copy of the application for at least 20 years, mail the original to PSP within 14 days of the sale, and provide one copy to the purchaser;
• Record the approval number on the application; and
• If the purchaser passes the background check, deliver the firearm to the purchaser securely wrapped and unloaded.

Now obviously you are confused since the above directly contradicts your statement that you can go into a "gun shop" and purchase a firearm without any checks. That is unless the dealer was breaking the Law. If so turn him in.

So a pistol or short barreled gun requires a background check. But a long-gun does not. So as long as someone is willing to use a rifle or shotgun they can buy the gun with no hassle. Well, that's an improvement. We used to be able to buy pistols in PA for cash (it sounds like you still can from individuals).

So my point about individual sales stands. As does my point on the NRA.

After all, you can pass as many laws about dealers as you like, but if a person can buy anything they want from craigs list ads, the system is still broken.

Just what do you assume that the NRA is responsible for. I have been a Life Member of the NRA for over 40 years and they have always fought for our rights. Now you object to what we want but until you and others have the political power to oppose that the existing laws will stand. I hope other like-minded firearm owners in states with oppressive firearm laws have the political power to change them.

Well let me give you an example you should recognize. The Brady act was apposed by the NRA. Just about every piece of gun regulation since then has been apposed by the NRA.

Sorry you are so bitter. What you call propaganda is just your objection to what we stand for. Sure we (the NRA) back pro-gun politicians, doesn't your like minded groups back anti-gun politicians. I noticed you added "safety training" to one of the most important aspects of the NRA. The State Government even recognizes the expertise of NRA instructions. Did you know that before you can get a CCW you have to attend a class given by a NRA instructor or meet other qualifications (for instance, my state accepts DD214 as a qualification except for the "Enhanced License")

Call it what you will. Propaganda, (information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.), is opinion. I added safety training because it is the one thing the NRA does that goes back to its founding, and it is the one thing they do that I support.

 

[esmith]

It's been a while since I've purchased a gun at a dealer. My mistake. Last I heard I thought the Brady Bill was overturned by the courts thanks to an NRA lawsuit. It appears only parts of it were overturned.



So a pistol or short barreled gun requires a background check. But a long-gun does not. So as long as someone is willing to use a rifle or shotgun they can buy the gun with no hassle. Well, that's an improvement. We used to be able to buy pistols in PA for cash (it sounds like you still can from individuals).
.

Did you not read the link I provided. It says.

Since 1998, the Brady Act has been implemented through the NICS. NICS is used to check the backgrounds of prospective purchasers of both handguns and long guns, and for persons who redeem a pawned firearm.2 The Brady Act does not apply to unlicensed firearm sellers. States have the option of serving as a state Point of Contact (POC) and conducting their own NICS checks, or having those checks performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)