What Is Justice?

[Storm]

I think we can all agree that justice is something we should strive for, but what is it? What does justice look like? Is it an eye for an eye, or is that outdated? If it's outdated, what do you think has or should have replaced it?

 

[Sunstone]

There's no such thing as justice. There's only remedy.

 

[Storm]

No? Why not? And what is it that you think does not exist? Is it an ideal that we should strive for regardless?

 

[Sunstone]

No? Why not? And what is it that you think does not exist? Is it an ideal that we should strive for regardless?

It's a worthless ideal to strive for. It causes conflict, resentment and divisions. Remedy is far better a thing to strive for.

 

[Storm]

It's a worthless ideal to strive for. It causes conflict, resentment and divisions.

Howso?

Remedy is far better a thing to strive for.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

 

[Sunstone]

Howso?

Begin by asking how you would know something is just.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

Remedy and redress -- if I cause you to fall through gross negligence on my part, thus inflicting $2000 in damages on you, I can redress that injury by paying you $2000 and remedying whatever it was that caused you to fall (such as a wet floor). Justice would do neither of those things.

 

[Storm]

Begin by asking how you would know something is just.

That's exactly the topic of the thread. I posted it because I realized I don't have an answer. My knee-jerk reaction is the aforementioned eye for an eye, but is that justice, or revenge?

Remedy and redress -- if I cause you to fall through gross negligence on my part, thus inflicting $2000 in damages on you, I can redress that injury by paying you $2000 and remedying whatever it was that caused you to fall (such as a wet floor). Justice would do neither of those things.

How does that work for more extreme crimes, like murder? Can there be any real, sufficient compensation to a family for the loss of one of their own?

 

[Father Heathen]

To me, injustice is violating the rights of another person (with theft, rape, murder, etc. as clear examples). So justice would be the correction and compensation for the crime. Criminals take something away from their victim, and thus owe a debt to them. For example when someone violates the rights of another, their own should be forfeit, i.e. imprisonment for a duration depending on the severity of the crime. Cost for cost. This also serves to protect society by removing them from it. I would imagine justice would help victims with coping, healing, closure, etc.

 

[Random]

She is blind, and holds the scales of cosmic balance aloft.

 

[Storm]

To me, injustice is violating the rights of another person (with theft, rape, murder, etc. as clear examples). So justice would be the correction and compensation for the crime. Criminals take something away from their victim, and thus owe a debt to them. For example when someone violates the rights of another, their own should be forfeit, i.e. imprisonment for a duration depending on the severity of the crime. Cost for cost. This also serves to protect society by removing them from it. I would imagine justice would help victims with coping, healing, closure, etc.

Very well said.

So, to you, justice goes beyond punishment to provide healing to the victims as well?

 

[Reiðrœska]

That's exactly the topic of the thread. I posted it because I realized I don't have an answer. My knee-jerk reaction is the aforementioned eye for an eye, but is that justice, or revenge?

How does that work for more extreme crimes, like murder? Can there be any real, sufficient compensation to a family for the loss of one of their own?

I'd say that revenge is justice. Justice is whatever you want it to be. If someone pushes you in a busy corridor, you could do one of two things. Ignore it and forgive them, just let it go. Or you could push them back. Whichever you choose, justice is done as long as you feel it is. But to be honest, just ignoring it won't make you feel any better if it offended you.

Of course, if you push them back, they are now posed with two choices. Accept that they did wrong and were punished for it, or make it escalate. They might feel the need to do justice by throwing a punch. If they do, it'll eventually lead to a fight.

If it does, will justice ever be done? To be honest, no. If you win the fight, the guy who pushed you a little bit now lays bloodied at your feet. If you lose, you got pushed AND beaten up. Neither of these are fair.

It doesn't matter that it's not fair if it's to your advantage. YOUR justice has been done. Overall justice is unbalanced, but it always will be. Only your own justice should be pursued because trying to make everything fair and just is entirely impossible. It is, of course, best to avoid situations that will result in the pursuit of justice but when they are unavoidable, just do what you need to in order to make yourself feel avenged, so to speak.

Oh, and if something is accidental, whoever commited the accident should simply say so. Remedy and redress can easily be decided without too much fuss. Having said that, if the commiter of the accident DOES kick up a fuss, it leads to an intentional disruption of justice which will lead to a fight and the need for YOU to do what makes YOU feel better.

 

[Father Heathen]

Very well said.

So, to you, justice goes beyond punishment to provide healing to the victims as well?

Indeed. They are owed something.

 

[Joy Christ]

The idea of an eye for an eye is not justice. If someome by premeditation removes your intellectual eye, they must lose their head. This is justice. It is like the old saying, The serpent may bruise your heal, but you may remove it's head.

 

[Father Heathen]

The idea of an eye for an eye is not justice. If somesome by premeditation removes your intellectual eye, they must lose their head. This is justice. It is like that saying, The serpent may bruise your heal, but you may remove it's head.

So an eye plus interest for an eye?

 

[Storm]

The idea of an eye for an eye is not justice. If somesome by premeditation removes your intellectual eye, they must lose their head. This is justice. It is like that saying, The serpent may bruise your heal, but you may remove it's head.

Hm. That strikes me more as vengeance than justice. Why do you consider escalation to be just?

 

[Father Heathen]

Hm. That strikes me more as vengeance than justice. Why do you consider escalation to be just?

It kind of makes sense to me. When you borrow from the bank, you have to pay them back plus interest. Victims never consented to the criminal "borrowing" from them, so a bit of interest would make sense as part of the compensation.

 

[Joy Christ]

This is not about vengeance or interest. Justice is about justification of one's self. It is about self protection. Justice is about safety for the innocent. Ones loyalties and duties must be with protecting those who can not defend themselves from illicit intrusion and violence. The Just Law can not be on the justified side of the innocent, and on the unjustified side of the barbarian, who has no regard for those whom he tramples.

 

[Storm]

This is not about vengeance or interest. Justice is about justification of one's self. It is about self protection.

Doesn't that lead to a might-makes-right mentality?

Justice is about safety for the innocent. Ones loyalties and duties must be with protecting those who can not defend themselves from illicit intrusion and violence.

I agree with this bit, but it seems to contradict the first quote.

The Just Law can not be on the justified side of the innocent, and on the unjustified side of the barbarian, who has no regard for those whom he tramples.

It seems to me that escalating, which you propose as just, would be more the province of the barbarian.

 

[Joy Christ]

Storm,
I do not understand your view.

 

[Storm]

Storm,
I do not understand your view.

Hardly your fault, as I'm not sure I do, either.

But I'm trying to understand yours. Let's start with the basics. Do you not believe there's a difference between vengeance and justice?