What Is Justice?

[Storm]

I really don't want this thread to turn into yet another debate on the death penalty, guys.

 

[Father Heathen]

Justice lies in not doing harm in the first place. Retribution and reparations might (or might not) make the ones harmed feel better, but can never undo the harm that was done.

Perhaps the knowledge that the guilty party faced the consequences of their crimes rather than get away clean with all the damage they've caused will help the victim cope, heal, and find closure. They are owed that much.

 

[Father Heathen]

But through the murder of that said criminal we in turn stoop to his level. Murder is murder, no matter what the justification might be.

Not that I necessarily support capital punishment, but this statement is ridicilous. Murder is the killing of an innocent life, and since a murderer is not innocent, how can killing them be murder as well? Would killing in self defense also be considered "murder"? If a thief stole some of your stuff, and you retrieved those possessions back, would that also make you a thief? Of course not. Why do people find it wrong for people to want what was wrongfully taken from them back, or at least some sort of compensation or reparations? Is rewarding the guilty and punishing the victims really the right approach towards justice?

 

[S-word]

But through the murder of that said criminal we in turn stoop to his level. Murder is murder, no matter what the justification might be. And besides, it could easily be avoided through imprisonment. He is a threat to society and needs to be removed from it. Sure, the economic cost of doing so is not desirable, but perhaps that's the price we have to pay.

Hate in turn for hate only generates more hatred, feeding the crimson-black cycle. By killing the man who murdered your family, you may feel better yourself, but what of the said man's own family? What if he had a wife and children? A mother or father? What about siblings? Through his "execution" they will have lost someone dear to them, no matter how ashamed of his actions they may be. His death will plant the seeds of more sorrow for years to come; as if what he'd done wasn't bad enough.

By our very nature, humanity is imperfect. As such, we have absolutely no right to pass on righteous judgement, to decide who lives and who dies as if we were the architects of creation. Such a thing is not justice, it's bigotry for the sake of vengeance. Who are you to say that this man with family of his own has no right to live? What made you so perfect?

When will it sink into the thick skulls of those who have been deceived by the wolf in sheep’s clothing, that those sick minds, that hide in the shadows waiting to leap out and attack and mutilate the bodies of our innocent children, were created by their steady diet of the spiritual food that is fed to our children through the Media.

The rubbish that we allow the media moguls to feed our children, who are either very ignorant and money orientated people, who produce only that which they know that society is willing to pay for, or either sick and perverted minds that can think of no other source of material to project the products of their minds, onto the TV screens of the books designed to feed the minds of our children.

It is up to people such as you, whether or not you allow the authorities to release into your neighbourhood, unbeknownst to the neighbourhood in which you live, those sick and perverted minds who are known to have mutilated and murdered innocent children for the satisfaction of their malformed and twisted spirits, or whether you choose to have them incarcerated for the rest of their life, locked away from the society in which you live, at a cost to the community of some 500 dollars or more per day.

But perhaps one day, you may be able to inject the bodies, in which those sick and depraved minds or spirits have developed, with some substance that will destroy every memory of their past, then implant into the brain of that body, an artificial past of your choosing. If that is your way of eliminating that mind from this world, so be it, but until such a remedy is available, I will continue to argue for the death sentence of that body in order to eliminate that mind from our society, according to the law of God, which upholds the sacredness of human life, “They who shed man’s blood, by man shall their blood be shed.” Or do you believe that Jesus once said, “Should someone rape and murder one of your children, then give them also your other child?”

 

[DarkSun]

Not that I necessarily support capital punishment, but this statement is ridicilous. Murder is the killing of an innocent life, and since a murderer is not innocent, how can killing them be murder as well?

murder definition | Dictionary.com

 

[DarkSun]

But perhaps one day, you may be able to inject the bodies, in which those sick and depraved minds or spirits have developed, with some substance that will destroy every memory of their past, then implant into the brain of that body, an artificial past of your choosing. If that is your way of eliminating that mind from this world, so be it, but until such a remedy is available, I will continue to argue for the death sentence of that body in order to eliminate that mind from our society, according to the law of God, which upholds the sacredness of human life, “They who shed man’s blood, by man shall their blood be shed.” Or do you believe that Jesus once said, “Should someone rape and murder one of your children, then give them also your other child?”

No. Just, no.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

I really don't want this thread to turn into yet another debate on the death penalty, guys.

Fair enough, I won't say anything more then. I don't expect a debate like this to go anywhere, anyway.

 

[S-word]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
I really don't want this thread to turn into yet another debate on the death penalty, guys.

Quote DarkSun----------Fair enough, I won't say anything more then. I don't expect a debate like this to go anywhere, anyway.

Yes, rather than speaking of cutting out the diseased and rotten flesh of the body of mankind and casting that dead flesh into the incinerators, we should be looking to the cause of that disease. We should be encouraging all parents to bann their children from watching or reading that rubbish, which is the cause of the malformation of the minds of our up and coming generations, and let all who advertise on those channels and in those magazines, know that you will not be buying any product advertized by them. It won't take em long to know that their god (Money) is abandoning them, their aim is to sell you the cheapest product that they can make for the maximum profit, they will not produce, what they cannot sell.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Storm,

Though do not know what justice is but know how it should be like here is an example":
Once in a kingdom there lived a wise man who was liked by everyone be they rich or poor as he treated each one with equal respect.
As the judge of the court was going on leave the King called him to take his place for a few days as he was equitable and so could do justice.
Next day a thief was brought and the case was presented by the respective lawyers and was a foregone conclusion that the thief would be sent behind bars for stealing.
The wise man started reading his verdict and said the rich man would be sent to jail for 7 days and the thief is free to go. Reason being if the rich had not stored so much wealth the poor thief would not have gone to steal.
Next day the judge was changed.
Justice is always been played out by existence to keep the universe in balance but the MIND's eye cannot see it because it perceives according to its own convenience.
Love & rgds

 

[S-word]

Friend Storm,

Though do not know what justice is but know how it should be like here is an example":
Once in a kingdom there lived a wise man who was liked by everyone be they rich or poor as he treated each one with equal respect.
As the judge of the court was going on leave the King called him to take his place for a few days as he was equitable and so could do justice.
Next day a thief was brought and the case was presented by the respective lawyers and was a foregone conclusion that the thief would be sent behind bars for stealing.
The wise man started reading his verdict and said the rich man would be sent to jail for 7 days and the thief is free to go. Reason being if the rich had not stored so much wealth the poor thief would not have gone to steal.
Next day the judge was changed.
Justice is always been played out by existence to keep the universe in balance but the MIND's eye cannot see it because it perceives according to its own convenience.
Love & rgds

So, what are you trying to say here? if that judge had before him three young unrepentent men who had bashed and raped a young girl, who was in intensive care, fighting for her very life, he would release them and have the girl put into custody, for having worn her skirt too short and tempted the men into doing what they had done? If you were the judge in such a case, what would be your verdict?

 

[zenzero]

Friend S-word,

Would not know what the wise man would have done however can say that the perceptions of what is justice is itself not equitable in the present scenario.

Love & rgds

 

[S-word]

Friend S-word,

Would not know what the wise man would have done however can say that the perceptions of what is justice is itself not equitable in the present scenario.

Love & rgds

I had just edited my previous post, and had asked ,what would have been your verdict if you were the Judge of such a case? A straight answer would be nice.

 

[zenzero]

Friend S-Word,
Neither am a wise man nor a judge besides find myself in the witness box awaiting the judgment every moment.
Also like to remind that the mind has been rusted over the years to THINK and JUDGE, for which everyone would have to excuse me.
Last word - Justice is been played every moment and balance restored, so we are where we are.
Love & rgds

 

[DarkSun]

Friend S-word,

Would not know what the wise man would have done however can say that the perceptions of what is justice is itself not equitable in the present scenario.

Love & rgds

It is true that individual perceptions of what is right, wrong, just and unjust differ from person to person. In fact, everyone on this planet has a different definition for justice. People who kill, rape and plunder may only do so because they see nothing immoral in these actions given the circumstance. Likewise, the court-system which follows the mainstream of morality will see the wrong in these actions and have the guilty convicted. So who is actually right? The courts or the murderer?

Right and wrong are value-statements whose meanings differ depending on the individual. In that sense, there is no "right", nor is there any "wrong", insofar as every action that an individual performs will be performed under the pretense that they believe they are right. The need for justice only ever arises when there is a confliction of morality between two parties. So justice itself is also a value-statement, because not everyone agrees on what is just.

God is the only one who can administer justice, because He is the only one who is truly perfect. My value for human life has created the perception that anyone who is a threat to society should be removed from it, and fines should be used as a means of averting possible harm. But otherwise, no physical or emotional damage should be inflicted upon that which we perceive as immoral.

To do such a thing is to place yourself on a pedastle that you cannot claim, and to cast righteous judgement onto others with your own imperfect, flawed and subjective perception of what is right and what is wrong. Justice will come naturally to those who are unjust; although we don't have the right to inflict such a thing onto others. Because to do so is to stoop to their level and kill or hurt based on our own subjective moralities.

 

[S-word]

Friend S-Word,

Neither am a wise man nor a judge besides find myself in the witness box awaiting the judgment every moment.
Also like to remind that the mind has been rusted over the years to THINK and JUDGE, for which everyone would have to excuse me.
Last word - Justice is been played every moment and balance restored, so we are where we are.
Love & rgds

That's alright old mate, although at 55, you're still only a pup. Just find yourself a comfortable saddle to put on the top rail of that fence, upon which you dangle one leg on either side, while those who believe that Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done, will continue to fight, to have removed from our society, those sick ond depraved minds that are a blight upon the body of man.

 

[S-word]

Quote....DarkSun
God is the only one who can administer justice, because He is the only one who is truly perfect. My value for human life has created the perception that anyone who is a threat to society should be removed from it, and fines should be used as a means of averting possible harm. But otherwise, no physical or emotional damage should be inflicted upon that which we perceive as immoral.

I am glad to see that you agree that God is the only one who can administer justice, because He is the only one who is truly perfect. For God administers his Justice through his servants who obey his command, to shed the blood of those who have knowingly and wilfully taken the life of an innocent person, in order that man might understand the sacredness of human life. I know that many people don’t have the guts or the fortitude to carry out God’s command, and would argue that it would be sufficient to incarcerate, for the rest of their life, those people who have forfeited their right to live, thereby imposing upon society a cost of billions and billions of dollars.

 

[zenzero]

Friend S-word,

That's alright old mate, although at 55, you're still only a pup. Just find yourself a comfortable saddle to put on the top rail of that fence, upon which you dangle one leg on either side, while those who believe that Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done, will continue to fight, to have removed from our society, those sick ond depraved minds that are a blight upon the body of man.

You have totally missed the point was making.

Can now truly see that S-word is actually*Sword* .
Best wishes in all your efforts of fighting and delivering justice.

Love & rgds

 

[S-word]

Friend S-word,

You have totally missed the point was making.

Can now truly see that S-word is actually*Sword* .
Best wishes in all your efforts of fighting and delivering justice.

Love & rgds

God cursed not the creation, nor the creatures of his creation nor the body of the Lord of creatures in which body develops the heir to his throne, for God cursed ignorance and ignorance alone.

It was Elijah who was carried up to stand by Enoch’s side
Who stood by the brook at Kishon where the priests of Baal all died.
It was he who gave the order and the waters all turned red
As fifty and eight hundred more false prophets all fell dead
Will you fight the war ‘gainst ignorance, the war that will be won
By those who wield the S-word of God, the sharp two edge-ed tongue?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think we can all agree that justice is something we should strive for, but what is it?

Hi Storm, omniscience is required to exact perfect justice, and there is much traditional understanding that such divine cosmic justice is always at work, e.g. concepts such as karma, and 'reap what you sow', etc..

So far as this cosmic justice is concerned, it is immutable in it's action and thus there is nothing one need strive for, except perhaps to be personally responsible for our own actions and "not do unto others that which one would not like done unto oneself".

So far as man is concerned, it is clear that the Caesar's human administered judicial system is imperfect and often corrupt. However in so far as the human judicial system sometimes gets it right and it is in congruence with karmic justice, all is well, but when it gets it wrong, then there may be a delay but cosmic karmic justice will still prevail, for as in the words of Galations 6:7 "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap".

For those who are impatient and are inclined to act on their own sense of justice or injustice, unless one is already perfect, "Do not judge so that will not be judged." (Matthew 7:1), and secondly remember "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword". (Matthew 26:52)

Blessed are the merciful,
God will be merciful to them! (Matthew 5:7.)

 

[Reverend Rick]

Justice is a whore for money. Simple as that, a man(or woman) of little means will never get justice.

I could not agree with you any less.

Justice means a rich man would face consequences for his trespasses on the poor.

Justice is when you search for the criminal and bring them in to answer for their crime. No poor person would have these resources if not for justice.

Justice is where you temper punishment with mercy. Is it your first time? Was it premeditated? Was it an accident?

Justice sets an example for others to follow. It acts as a motivator to not commit crime in the first place.

Might make right? You betcha! Do you have a problem with authority?

 

[Reverend Rick]

There was a young man who raped and murdered the little daughter of his nieghbour, whose mutilated body, he stuffed into a rubbish bag, which he put in the boot of his car in order to dispose of it, but because of the concentration of people who were gathered at his neighbours house co-ordinating the seach for the child, the smell of her decomposing body in the hot tropics, led to his apprehension.

Twenty years later he was paroled by the authorities, which should, in my oppinion, be held accountable for his later actions, because within three months of his release, he had raped and murdered another little child of one of his neighbours, and stuffed her mutilated body in a rubbish bag, and this time was able to dispose of her body in the surrounding bush land before it was noticed that she was missing.

It didn't take long for the authorities who had released him into an unsuspecting society, to realise who had commited the heinous crime. Let us hope that by the time that they secretly release him again,'and they will,' he will be too old to physically perform the act that drives him to search out and murder little children. O, and by the way, when he was being tried for the second murder, I wrote a letter to the editor of one of the local newspapers concerning the first murder, it could not be published because the Jurors may have found out, and might have been influenced to bring in a verdict of guilty, which they did anyway.

Justice in this circumstance would be to punish the person or person's responsible for releasing him. If you have a tiger in a cage and you release it who is responsible, the person who lets the tiger go or the tiger?