What is Kosher meat?

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I started a thread entitled "Raw meat" and had little to no responses as to my question in the Judaism area of the discussion forum so I decided to bring it out into the open in hopes to getting a open forum on the subject of blood and Kosher meat.

Now have read that meat can be considered Kosher and still look very red. This means, if true, that the red color may not be from blood. Torah forbids the consumption of, KJV, any manner of blood. Now some could state that the word in Hebrew that the KJV used to translate to "manner" actually means "Whole" so are we to say that the Torah only denies us the consumption of whole blood? Does this mean that if we were to heat the meat to an eternal temp. that would change the molecular structure of the blood, which would then not be considered blood, that we could eat it? Even if it is dripping wet with red juices?

 

[mohe3439]

Food is Kosher when it is not shell fish, meat mixed with dairy of ANY kind mainly beef and milk dairy products from a cow and if it isn't from a pig or related to a pig, so meat would be kosher if it follows all of these rules.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

meat mixed with dairy of ANY kind mainly beef and milk dairy products from a cow

Where is this written?

 

[mohe3439]

that specifically isn't written anywhere, but over the years Rabbis have drawn logical reasons behind some of the Torah

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

that specifically isn't written anywhere, but over the years Rabbis have drawn logical reasons behind some of the Torah

Oh, o.k.

So there is no instance of it in scripture? So the tradition of the elders through their intellectural thought processes came up with this logical reasoning that if Torah states..........

Exo 23:19 The first of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of YAH your Elohim. "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

Exo 34:26 You shall bring the first of the first fruits of your ground to the house of YAH your Elohim. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."

Deu 14:21 You shall not eat of anything that dies of itself: you may give it to the foreigner living among you who is within your gates, that he may eat it; or you may sell it to a foreigner: for you are a holy people to YAH your Elohim. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

..............then this must mean all meat and all milk that would come from meat?

 

[Deut 13:1]

Ein sincha elah b'basar ve'yayin.

If you want to know about kosher foods, especially meat, there are a lot more things then the prohibition against eating pork and mixing dairy and meat. Perhaps it would be wise to discuss this theory of yours with the local shochet.

Remember all the blood has to be drained off and cooked off before the consumption of meat is considered kosher. That's why they soak the meat, salt the meat, then drain the meat.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Ein sincha elah b'basar ve'yayin.

If you want to know about kosher foods, especially meat, there are a lot more things then the prohibition against eating pork and mixing dairy and meat. Perhaps it would be wise to discuss this theory of yours with the local shochet.

Remember all the blood has to be drained off and cooked off before the consumption of meat is considered kosher. That's why they soak the meat, salt the meat, then drain the meat.

Yes there is much joy in it for me.

Todah for your advice. I will try to look one up.

The draining I read because it is Torah that we eat not the life there of. It's the cooking, soaking and salting parts that I am not seeing. Cooking only as I see in .............

Exo 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

............. but not necessarily soaking and no where I read salting other than as a condiment. As far as the roasting/cooking part, I don't see where it has to be either well done or rare. I also see where...............

1Sa 2:15 Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.

.......... soddening with water is not wanted here. I see no commands to either sodden with water or to salt. I know that through the traditions of the elders that they came up with rules regarding such but isn't there more we can grasp from the written Torah and or Prophets on this issue? Or is there just simply nothing to show of these rules other than that of tradition?

 

[Deut 13:1]

The draining I read because it is Torah that we eat not the life there of. It's the cooking, soaking and salting parts that I am not seeing. Cooking only as I see in .............

............. but not necessarily soaking and no where I read salting other than as a condiment. As far as the roasting/cooking part, I don't see where it has to be either well done or rare. I also see where...............

.......... soddening with water is not wanted here. I see no commands to either sodden with water or to salt. I know that through the traditions of the elders that they came up with rules regarding such but isn't there more we can grasp from the written Torah and or Prophets on this issue? Or is there just simply nothing to show of these rules other than that of tradition?

The traditions didn't come from the elders, they came from moshe at sinai. Keep in mind that the Oral Law that came with the Torah explains and shows the arguments for and against the laws and regulations.

For example, Devarim 6:8 and 11:18 refer to Tefillin. No where in the Torah does it explain the dimensions, color requirements, material requirements, ink type, etc... for the Tefillin to be considered Kosher, but the Talmud does. Again, you don't have to agree with the Oral law, but if you're looking for Jewish opinions, you must allow references and citations from it. The Torah, as magnificent as it is, is incomplete without the Oral Law - from a Jewish perspective. From a christian perspective, the Oral law is useless and doesn't do much except hinder arguments for their beliefs.

To answer your question directly, there is a lot more that we can grasp about Torah through the study of Talmud. People who devote an hour a day to it, do a fairly shallow reading of it and take 7 years to do it. Also, it is helpful to learn Aramaic. If you're really interested in reading it though, there are English versions of the Talmud out there... Artscroll and Soncino come to my mind. Just be aware that they are not cheap, you're looking at half a grand easy. I do suggest looking in your library though, you may find a copy of it as a reference book.

The source you're looking for is Chullin 113a

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

The traditions didn't come from the elders, they came from moshe at sinai. Keep in mind that the Oral Law that came with the Torah explains and shows the arguments for and against the laws and regulations.

For example, Devarim 6:8 and 11:18 refer to Tefillin. No where in the Torah does it explain the dimensions, color requirements, material requirements, ink type, etc... for the Tefillin to be considered Kosher, but the Talmud does. Again, you don't have to agree with the Oral law, but if you're looking for Jewish opinions, you must allow references and citations from it. The Torah, as magnificent as it is, is incomplete without the Oral Law - from a Jewish perspective. From a christian perspective, the Oral law is useless and doesn't do much except hinder arguments for their beliefs.

To answer your question directly, there is a lot more that we can grasp about Torah through the study of Talmud. People who devote an hour a day to it, do a fairly shallow reading of it and take 7 years to do it. Also, it is helpful to learn Aramaic. If you're really interested in reading it though, there are English versions of the Talmud out there... Artscroll and Soncino come to my mind. Just be aware that they are not cheap, you're looking at half a grand easy. I do suggest looking in your library though, you may find a copy of it as a reference book.

The source you're looking for is Chullin 113a

Well, even though I am not a christian, Ihave to agree with your rendition of what they feel of the so called oral Torah. I only accept the written and do believe that the oral is the same as the traditions of the elders and not given to Moshe' at Sinai. But that is all for another thread. With that said, I will listen to what those that claim the relevance of oral Torah in this instance only to hear the difference in thought but in no way does this mean that I accept those traditions. As far as tefillin, I find this word no where in Torah and the verses you stated say nothing of what you state. Funny how we get exacting dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant as well as the ark in which Noah built along with that of the Temple and those sacred items within it but no where, I mean no where is it written with-in these same pages is there even a mere mention of any so called tefillin. Again this is for another thread and a debate with someone other than me because I just simply do not accept Rabbinical Judaism where it falls under the guise of the oral traditions.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Well, even though I am not a christian, Ihave to agree with your rendition of what they feel of the so called oral Torah. I only accept the written and do believe that the oral is the same as the traditions of the elders and not given to Moshe' at Sinai. But that is all for another thread. With that said, I will listen to what those that claim the relevance of oral Torah in this instance only to hear the difference in thought but in no way does this mean that I accept those traditions. As far as tefillin, I find this word no where in Torah and the verses you stated say nothing of what you state. Funny how we get exacting dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant as well as the ark in which Noah built along with that of the Temple and those sacred items within it but no where, I mean no where is it written with-in these same pages is there even a mere mention of any so called tefillin. Again this is for another thread and a debate with someone other than me because I just simply do not accept Rabbinical Judaism where it falls under the guise of the oral traditions.

Great post, and its perfectly fine not to accept those traditions, just be aware that when asking Jews their opinion you're likely to get answers that include the oral law.

On a side note, What are your beliefs on a mezuzah? Devarim 6:9
How do you interpret 6:8 and 11:18 where we are obligated to bind this sign to our hands and between our eyes? What is the sign?
One other question, do you wear Tzitzit? Obviously we don't wear cornered garments, but since it is a biblical mitzvah, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. Sorry the questions, but I'm curious now... lol

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Great post, and its perfectly fine not to accept those traditions, just be aware that when asking Jews their opinion you're likely to get answers that include the oral law.

Thank you and I am aware of it only with certain Jews.

On a side note, What are your beliefs on a mezuzah? Devarim 6:9
How do you interpret 6:8 and 11:18 where we are obligated to bind this sign to our hands and between our eyes? What is the sign?
One other question, do you wear Tzitzit? Obviously we don't wear cornered garments, but since it is a biblical mitzvah, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. Sorry the questions, but I'm curious now... lol

You know what I am about to say about the mezuzah. The same thing I said about the tefillin. I tell you what friend, if you really want to know and truly have a desire to learn what it is about these mysteries then I invite you to "PM" me and request the link to the website of our Tabernacle and I promise you that you will be more than satisfied with the answers you will receive as to the understandings in which I have been taught.

 

[NoahideHiker]

The traditions didn't come from the elders, they came from moshe at sinai. Keep in mind that the Oral Law that came with the Torah explains and shows the arguments for and against the laws and regulations.

For example, Devarim 6:8 and 11:18 refer to Tefillin. No where in the Torah does it explain the dimensions, color requirements, material requirements, ink type, etc... for the Tefillin to be considered Kosher, but the Talmud does. Again, you don't have to agree with the Oral law, but if you're looking for Jewish opinions, you must allow references and citations from it. The Torah, as magnificent as it is, is incomplete without the Oral Law - from a Jewish perspective. From a christian perspective, the Oral law is useless and doesn't do much except hinder arguments for their beliefs.

To answer your question directly, there is a lot more that we can grasp about Torah through the study of Talmud. People who devote an hour a day to it, do a fairly shallow reading of it and take 7 years to do it. Also, it is helpful to learn Aramaic. If you're really interested in reading it though, there are English versions of the Talmud out there... Artscroll and Soncino come to my mind. Just be aware that they are not cheap, you're looking at half a grand easy. I do suggest looking in your library though, you may find a copy of it as a reference book.

The source you're looking for is Chullin 113a

I would love to have the full set of Schottenstein Editions in English!

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I would love to have the full set of Schottenstein Editions in English!

And I would love nothing more than to see this thread stay on topic but it looks as though it will be as all the rest. LOL :areyoucra

 

[NoahideHiker]

Free flowing discussion is the norm on web boards. I've learned more from off topic discussions than I have when they stay on track.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I tell you what friend, if you really want to know and truly have a desire to learn what it is about these mysteries then I invite you to "PM" me and request the link to the website of our Tabernacle and I promise you that you will be more than satisfied with the answers you will receive as to the understandings in which I have been taught.

I rather discuss it with a person than read it from a website. You're always free to post the link and I'll glance at it, but I rather chat about it.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I rather discuss it with a person than read it from a website. You're always free to post the link and I'll glance at it, but I rather chat about it.

Then I suggest you start a thread on the subject or go to one that is better suited for such discussion. This thread already has a topic and its about kosher meat. :eat:

I don’t have a problem with posting the thread but I do not feel it is appropriate to do so as to the terms of service of this forum. Our website also has items for sell like CD’s and DVD’s of classes and teachings as well as other items pertaining to our Tabernacle and I do not believe that the owner/owners of this forum would appreciate me posting the web address which could be deemed as advertisement. But if it is a problem to PM me for the address then by all means make the request here in this thread for the address and I will PM it to you. Then you would be free to take your “glance” at your convenience. :computer:

 

[Wandered Off]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * STAFF ADVISORY * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Just a friendly reminder to stay on topic, please. Some off-topic posts were removed. Thanks!​

​

​

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Now maybe we can stay on topic................

I could be wrong in this but if at 140 degree's myoglobin has its molecular structure changed because at that temperature it looses one of the nitrogen atoms surrounding the iron atom which makes it something different than myoglobin and since hemoglobin has an iron atom surrounded by nitrogen atoms it only stands to reason that maybe the same thing occurs to it at the same temperature.

Has anyone the knowledge on this sort of thing as to help?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Now maybe we can stay on topic................

I could be wrong in this but if at 140 degree's myoglobin has its molecular structure changed because at that temperature it looses one of the nitrogen atoms surrounding the iron atom which makes it something different than myoglobin and since hemoglobin has an iron atom surrounded by nitrogen atoms it only stands to reason that maybe the same thing occurs to it at the same temperature.

Has anyone the knowledge on this sort of thing as to help?

I was told yesterday at a doctors office by someone taking blood that blood does change in its molecular structure with heat. They wasn't helpful with what temp. though so I am still searching.

 

[alabama2010]

Ruminants and cloven-hoofed animals are fine. Chicken, turkey, duck, and geese are okay. If it's in the water, it has to have fins and scales. Shellfish are out. Fish and meat can't be eaten together.