What is Male???

[The Hammer]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a fe male is? What makes someone a fe Male?

For me, it doesn't really exist outside of our minds. Penises, Vaginas, those things aren't gender, only sex. And they aren't synonymous.

 

[Stevicus]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a fe male is? What makes someone a fe Male?

For me, it doesn't really exist outside of our minds. Penises, Vaginas, those things aren't gender, only sex. And they aren't synonymous.

My view is that, in most situations one encounters in life, it really doesn't matter in the slightest. If I'm going to the dentist, the store, dealing with co-worker - I'm not terribly concerned about "what" they actually are. As long as they're human - and even then, I'm pretty broad-minded.

As far as coming up with some kind of agreement on what makes one "male" or "female," I don't believe that will ever happen. Too many disparate and wide-ranging opinions all over the map. I would put it in the realm of science, but there's also cultural and political ideas getting thrown into the mix. And because it might involve penises and vaginas, a certain degree of puritanism comes to the forefront and a general discomfort and controversy in broaching the subject at all.

 

[The Hammer]

My view is that, in most situations one encounters in life, it really doesn't matter in the slightest. If I'm going to the dentist, the store, dealing with co-worker - I'm not terribly concerned about "what" they actually are. As long as they're human - and even then, I'm pretty broad-minded.

As far as coming up with some kind of agreement on what makes one "male" or "female," I don't believe that will ever happen. Too many disparate and wide-ranging opinions all over the map. I would put it in the realm of science, but there's also cultural and political ideas getting thrown into the mix. And because it might involve penises and vaginas, a certain degree of puritanism comes to the forefront and a general discomfort and controversy in broaching the subject at all.

I agree.

This post was more a jab at the "what is female" that has like 200 pages of comments.

No one ever asks what a male is. Or about transmen in general. Only transwomen.

It appears that sexism is rampant even today.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I agree.

This post was more a jab at the "what is female" that has like 200 pages of comments.

No one ever asks what a male is. Or about transmen in general. Only transwomen.

It appears that sexism is rampant even today.

Why don't we broaden it a bit further then? What's in a name (as Juliet asked)?

Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

From my first memories, until I was 8 years old, I was called Jack Main. Now, as it happens, my first name is Jack (I was named for my mother's brother), and my middle name is Allen (named after a Major in the Salvation Army who helped my mother through her unwed pregnancy. Nobody ever told me my middle name (that I can recall), or ever used it. The last name, Main, is the name of the man my mother married after I was born -- and he never adopted me.

So I grew up as Jack Main.

My healing, from a severely disturbed child (Jack Main brutalized and nearly killed me), only really begain when at 8 years old I learned my last name was actually my mother's last name, and I instantly adopted a new persona for myself, J. Allen E----. Never again would I be called Jack Main, and forever after I was Allen E----

And the truth is, that is the first time I really started being comfortable being me.

See, the problem is that our self-identity has more to do with the mind than it has with the physical body. Like the Jack Russell Terrier that thinks he's a dog 3 times his actual size, and behaves like it, the body has less to do with "who you truly are" than the contents of your mind and memory do.

Another example, let's look at a boy named David Reimer, who, after a botched circumcision at 6 months, was surgically altered, treated with female hormones, and brought up as a girl in every way. The psychologist, John Money, who oversaw his treatment, wrote of it as evidence that sexual identity is primarily learned. BOY, was he wrong.

David began realizing that he was "not a girl" from the age of 9, and was living entirely as a male by the age of 15 -- in spite of the fact that he had no penis or testicles, and a functioning vagina (but of course nothing above that in the female sexual anatomy). David's gender was in his mind, not what he could see of his physical body, and nothing or nobody could alter that.

 

[Kfox]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a fe male is? What makes someone a fe Male?

For me, it doesn't really exist outside of our minds. Penises, Vaginas, those things aren't gender, only sex. And they aren't synonymous.

Male/Female are biological references, (not only for humans but all mammals); man/woman are gender. Perhaps your title should have been; "what is man".

 

[Kfox]

Another example, let's look at a boy named David Reimer, who, after a botched circumcision at 6 months, was surgically altered, treated with female hormones, and brought up as a girl in every way. The psychologist, John Money, who oversaw his treatment, wrote of it as evidence that sexual identity is primarily learned. BOY, was he wrong.

David began realizing that he was "not a girl" from the age of 9, and was living entirely as a male by the age of 15 -- in spite of the fact that he had no penis or testicles, and a functioning vagina (but of course nothing above that in the female sexual anatomy). David's gender was in his mind, not what he could see of his physical body, and nothing or nobody could alter that.

How was David's mind different than the mind of a typical Tom Boy?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How was David's mind different than the mind of a typical Tom Boy?

As I am neither David nor a tomboy, how could I possibly provide a meaningful answer?

I would say, however, that many tomboys identify as female, but just want to engage in activities more typical of boys. There are boys (we often call them "sissies") who identify as male, but prefer to engage in activities more typical of girls. Some tomboys grow up to be lesbian, and I'm sure many do not, and some "sissies" grow up to become husbands and fathers, while some end up being gay. But being gay or lesbian speak to your sexual attraction -- who you wish to be intimate with -- rather than your own gender identity.

David did not identify as a female -- he "knew" (in his own words) that he was male.

 

[Kfox]

As I am neither David nor a tomboy, how could I possibly provide a meaningful answer?

I would say, however, that many tomboys identify as female,

No; ALL tomboys identify as female.

David did not identify as a female -- he "knew" (in his own words) that he was male.

What is it about David that made him a male?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Male/Female are biological references, (not only for humans but all mammals); man/woman are gender. Perhaps your title should have been; "what is man".

I do think there's value in differentiating between biology (sex) and sociology (gender). As new as it is, this is useful in furthering the life sciences. Moving forward, I think it makes sense to look at both sex and gender as spectrums with both vast generalizations and specific variabilities depending on context.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No; ALL tomboys identify as female.

What is it about David that made him a male?

Yes, I see you are trying to set a trap, and I can imagine your joy when you spring it.

What made his gender male, in my view, is how he -- within his own mind -- identifies.

As it happens, he was born XY with all the normal bits that make his sex (note the change in word) male.

Go back and read my post #4, and answer this for me: what is it that makes the Jack Russell Terrier think it is a large dog? Is it his size?

 

[Kfox]

What made his gender male, in my view, is how he -- within his own mind -- identifies.

How can you identify as something unless you know what that something is?

Go back and read my post #4, and answer this for me: what is it that makes the Jack Russell Terrier think it is a large dog? Is it his size?

Jack Russell Terriers do not believe they are large dogs.

 

[exchemist]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a fe male is? What makes someone a fe Male?

For me, it doesn't really exist outside of our minds. Penises, Vaginas, those things aren't gender, only sex. And they aren't synonymous.

Male means the sex, in sexually reproducting species, that produces the gamete that fertilises the ovum.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

With all the transgender threads on the forum, can we clear up what a fe male is? What makes someone a fe Male?

For me, it doesn't really exist outside of our minds. Penises, Vaginas, those things aren't gender, only sex. And they aren't synonymous.

A sperm producer.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How can you identify as something unless you know what that something is?

Jack Russell Terriers do not believe they are large dogs.

How many Jack Russell's have you personally interviewed?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

A sper

A sperm producer.

Then David Reimer was not a male -- his ability to produce sperm was zero.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then David Reimer was not a male -- his ability to produce sperm was zero.

Yeah, because he had been castrated. You're talking about gender identity, which is not the same as sex.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yeah, because he had been castrated. You're talking about gender identity, which is not the same as sex.

Well, as I look back, I have said exactly that several times in this thread, so I'm rather surprised you think I needed reminding.

Still, it seems to me that you really don't think that "mind" has anything to do with who you are -- only the gross physical bits that can be measured and typed. I'm afraid I think that there's much more to it than that. And I'm also afraid that virtually every neuroscientist in the world today agrees with me.

How Are The Mind & The Brain Different? A Neuroscientist Explains​

Caroline Leaf, Ph.D., BSc, ​

Communication Pathologist and Neuroscientist​

March 8, 2021​

​

Caroline Leaf, Ph.D, BSc, is a communication pathologist and cognitive neuroscientist, specializing in cognitive and metacognitive neuropsychology.​

​

“For many people, the mind and brain are interchangeable. They use one word or the other to talk about the same thing: the organ in our skull that we use to think.​

​

“However, the mind and brain are actually two very different, but interconnected, entities. As a neuroscientist, this reality is the foundation of my life's research and work: The mind works through the brain but is separate from the brain.”​

 

[Kfox]

How many Jack Russell's have you personally interviewed?

As many as you have.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, as I look back, I have said exactly that several times in this thread, so I'm rather surprised you think I needed reminding.

Still, it seems to me that you really don't think that "mind" has anything to do with who you are -- only the gross physical bits that can be measured and typed. I'm afraid I think that there's much more to it than that. And I'm also afraid that virtually every neuroscientist in the world today agrees with me.

How Are The Mind & The Brain Different? A Neuroscientist Explains​

Caroline Leaf, Ph.D., BSc, ​

Communication Pathologist and Neuroscientist​

March 8, 2021​

​

Caroline Leaf, Ph.D, BSc, is a communication pathologist and cognitive neuroscientist, specializing in cognitive and metacognitive neuropsychology.​

​

“For many people, the mind and brain are interchangeable. They use one word or the other to talk about the same thing: the organ in our skull that we use to think.​

​

“However, the mind and brain are actually two very different, but interconnected, entities. As a neuroscientist, this reality is the foundation of my life's research and work: The mind works through the brain but is separate from the brain.”​

What? I'm a transsexual. Do I need to put it in my user title so people don't forget or something? I knew very well the mind has something to do with it but "male", in the biological sense, refers to the sex that produces sperm.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What? I'm a transsexual. Do I need to put it in my user title so people don't forget or something? I knew very well the mind has something to do with it but "male", in the biological sense, refers to the sex that produces sperm.

But the OP didn't mention "biological sense." And therefore I haven't restricted my answers to the biological sense. Why have you?

And I'm serious about that last question: it may well be that you do not refer to yourself as male, but always as "trans-male." If that is the case, then that is entirely your prerogative, but I'm not a fan of hyphenated identities. I got in trouble with the Canadian government once, because I refused to select one of their options for my identity as a Canadian -- the long-form census at the time always included a prefix (French-Canadian, Italo-Canadian, etc.), and I wrote in "just Canadian." (As it happens, since I had no idea of my ancestry at the time, that was the only possible honest answer.)

Therefore, I don't need to have people tell me whether they are trans- or cis-, because I don't care. As I don't plan to be engaging in any sexual activity with anyone other than my long-term partner, it is a matter of no interest, so I'll just take a response of "I'm a man, and my pronouns are he and him," or "I'm a woman, and my pronouns are she and her." If you're dressed like a man, with a beard or mustache on your face and present yourself as a man -- good enough for me. And if you happen to wander into the same bathroom I'm in, I don't care very much. I've nothing particularly interesting to look at anyway.

@Saint Frankenstein, I've known trans people since before you were born. I'm not fussed about it.