What is mind? What is matter?

[james dixon]

Speaking of dreams--

Joseph Dreams of Greatness

37 Now Jacob dwelt in the land where his father was a stranger, in the land of Canaan. 2 This is the history of Jacob.

5 Now Joseph had a dream, and he told it to his brothers; and they hated him even more. 6 So he said to them, “Please hear this dream which I have dreamed: 7 There we were, binding sheaves in the field. Then behold, my sheaf arose and also stood upright; and indeed your sheaves stood all around and bowed down to my sheaf.”

8 And his brothers said to him, “Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” 11 And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

 

[Frog]

I would suggest that they are aspects of something higher.
Something that transcends both concepts.

They are the same thing. Everything existing in the material world constitutes material design. Although there exists transitory areas outside the body which are not materialistic in nature but rather not necessary to explain here.

Mind = matter (the mind exists on the material plane)
Matter = matter

Don't ask me how we escape the material world. I am still asking myself that. Of course i should hope this body would suffer to travel. Who would want this baggage though honestly? Those afraid to die physically but would like to be reborn spiritually.
Little is to have, more to be gained.
This is temporary

 

[The Anointed]

I tend to agree. Brahman/God/Cosmic Consciousness is the only eternal. Mind and matter are parts of the everchanging play/drama of Brahman.

It is,as Omar Khayyam, the King of the Wise once said; "The Master, whose secret presence through creations veins, running quick-silver like eludes your pains. Taking on all shapes from moon to cow, which shapes change and perish all, but he remains.

A moment guessed---then back behind the fold [curtain] immersed of darkness round the drama rolled, which for the past time of eternity, he doth himself Contrive, enact and behold.

The Master whose secret presence runs throughout the creation, who is hidden behind the curtain on the stage of Life, where he is the author of life's drama, the actors upon the stage of life, and the audience, who no long participate, but are content to watch the Master at work, as he unfolds the drama of life.
.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What all we know is described here barring hocus-pocus: Mind - Wikipedia

 

[The Anointed]

Don't be silly. Solids are solid, else we have to rename them.

So you think that an atom from which all supposed matter is created, is solid, do you?

Because the orbiting electron appears to occupy all positions within that orbit around the nucleus, you erroneously believe that the atom is solid.

I suspect that you also you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself] self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry” But you do realise that at the moment of that which we call the Big Bang when the supposed singularity was said to have been spatially separated, only electromagnetic energy was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees?

That which you see as matter, did not and could not exist in that environment, it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this seemingly Material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

The eternal energy that has neither beginning or end has become all that exists, amd is the collective consciousness of all that it has become.

 

[Aupmanyav]

सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन हृदि प्रतीष्याकवयो मनीषा ll
Sato bandhumasati niravindan hridi pratīshyākavayo manīshā ll
(Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. ('Nāsadiya Sūkta', c 1000 BCE)

 

[The Anointed]

सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन हृदि प्रतीष्याकवयो मनीषा ll
Sato bandhumasati niravindan hridi pratīshyākavayo manīshā ll
(Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. ('Nāsadiya Sūkta', c 1000 BCE)

In the non-existent there is no existent kinship, no thoughts, etc, Nothing exists in the non-existent.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Potential, it seems, according to quantum mechanics.

"A widely supported hypothesis in modern physics is the zero-energy universe which states that the total amount of energy in the universe is exactly zero. It has been argued that this is the only kind of universe that could come from nothing. Such a universe would have to be flat in shape, a state which does not contradict current observations that the universe is flat with a 0.5% margin of error.

The paper "Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo" provides a model for a way the Universe could have been created from pure 'nothing' in information terms."
Ex nihilo - Wikipedia

"A Universe from Nothing". Astronomical Society of the Pacific. Retrieved 10 March 2010. by Alexei V. Filippenko and Jay M. Pasachoff
"Will the Universe expand forever?". NASA. Retrieved 18 October 2011.
"A Universe From Nothing lecture by Lawrence Krauss at AAI". 2009. Retrieved 17 October 2011.
Lincoln, M.; Wasser, A. (2013). "Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo". Physics of the Dark Universe. 2 (4): 195. Bibcode:2013PDU.....2..195L. doi:10.1016/j.dark.2013.11.004.

 

[The Anointed]

Potential, it seems, according to quantum mechanics.

"A widely supported hypothesis in modern physics is the zero-energy universe which states that the total amount of energy in the universe is exactly zero. It has been argued that this is the only kind of universe that could come from nothing. Such a universe would have to be flat in shape, a state which does not contradict current observations that the universe is flat with a 0.5% margin of error.

The paper "Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo" provides a model for a way the Universe could have been created from pure 'nothing' in information terms."
Ex nihilo - Wikipedia

"A Universe from Nothing". Astronomical Society of the Pacific. Retrieved 10 March 2010. by Alexei V. Filippenko and Jay M. Pasachoff
"Will the Universe expand forever?". NASA. Retrieved 18 October 2011.
"A Universe From Nothing lecture by Lawrence Krauss at AAI". 2009. Retrieved 17 October 2011.
Lincoln, M.; Wasser, A. (2013). "Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo". Physics of the Dark Universe. 2 (4): 195. Bibcode:2013PDU.....2..195L. doi:10.1016/j.dark.2013.11.004.

From nothing comes nothing. All that is in existence has always existed in one form or another.

There is no evidence, nor will there ever be, that anything came from nothing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Probably, non-existence is only a form of existence. What do we know?

 

[Willamena]

So you think that an atom from which all supposed matter is created, is solid, do you?

Because the orbiting electron appears to occupy all positions within that orbit around the nucleus, you erroneously believe that the atom is solid.

My point is that if that's what a solid is, then that's what a solid is.

 

[The Anointed]

My point is that if that's what a solid is, then that's what a solid is.

So you agree that what you perceive as a solid is only a state of energy.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

So you think that an atom from which all supposed matter is created, is solid, do you?

Because the orbiting electron appears to occupy all positions within that orbit around the nucleus, you erroneously believe that the atom is solid.

I suspect that you also you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself] self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry” But you do realise that at the moment of that which we call the Big Bang when the supposed singularity was said to have been spatially separated, only electromagnetic energy was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees?

That which you see as matter, did not and could not exist in that environment, it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this seemingly Material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

The eternal energy that has neither beginning or end has become all that exists, amd is the collective consciousness of all that it has become.

What we perceive through our senses, is information about what is solid(hard), soft, liquid, gaseous, introspective, and positional. Therefore anything that stimulates our sense organs must exist outside of these sense organs. Our brain is a physical organ that is DIRECTLY connected to our sense organs. It can only detect the outside reality through these sense organs. All sensory inputs are compartmentalized by the brain, to represent its best guess interpretation of what the physical reality looks like. At no time does a physical reality exist within the brain, physically. At no time is a physical reality objectively observe. We are all physical biological organisms trapped within a subjective perspective of reality. Only without our senses, would our subjective reality become an illusion, or even exist at all. With our senses only the reality that is represented by our mind is an illusion, not the reality that the mind is representing. This can be easily tested. Just cover your ears, hold your breath, and close your eyes, and the brain's representation of reality will disappear. Since it is the representation, and not the reality that disappears, it must be the representation that is the illusion, and not reality.

At the Macro level of reality, we are not talking about one atom and the space between the electron(not photon) and the nucleus. We are talking about a trillion, trillion atoms being held together by the strong and weak fundamental forces of nature. As well as the EM forces. Hence we don't fall through the earth, or any other solid object. Also, light doesn't reflect off of empty space. Neither are our sense organs stimulated by empty space. But you are correct, at the Quantum level atoms are mostly empty space. Claiming that because all matter is composed of atoms, and all atoms are composed of empty space, therefore, all matter is really empty space, IS AN OBVIOUS FALLACY. Water is a liquid, water is composed of 2 gases, therefore water is really a gas. I think you can clearly see the logical flaw.

The early Universe was certainly very hot. So hot that not only could matter not form, but even light(photons) could not escape the heat. But this Universe was never sentient. It had no purpose, or higher design. We are simply the product of order out of chaos, if you will. Our evolution is the product of trial an error, chemical evolution, luck, and the laws of probability. Considering the fact that 99.999% of all creatures that have ever lived on this planet, are now extinct. We are the prodgenies of a generation of survivors. Or, do you think there were no other Hominids before modern man?

 

[sealchan]

I would suggest that they are aspects of something higher.
Something that transcends both concepts.

Complex systemic organization of matter can give rise to matter systems or agents with the property of being able to model the environment and anticipate and manipulate that environment. To the degree this is true such a system/agent may recognize it's own capability over and above other systems and label that information, mind.

 

[sealchan]

Nope. Mind, a compilation of ones thoughts and process of. Matter, the physical part of life. Mind to its brain.

As for aspects of something higher, I don't see that. We don't always understand the workings of the mind and how they create in us spiritual experiences, and it is awesome so much that we build religions on it, but at its core it really just is.

The better way to see it, in my opinion, is the simplicity of it. Transcending is an illusion that what we don't know is spiritual in some way. It's wrapped in culture and religion as to help people understand the world which is both mind and matter. But in itself, without culture and religion, it's just is.

Something outside that transends both concepts? The mind can think that for comfort, so that couple be. I don't agree with it. Everything comes from mind. Outside of our mind (actual mind), life exist independently and has no definition nor something outside of not in and of itself. That's all human.

But not many can appreciate divinity in things as they are. It's hard but if needing something or someone that trascends mind and matter is needed, to each his own.

From another angle to what you are saying I think...if we understand that truth comes from multiple natural systems in the brain we can say that truth will never shake down into one rational philosophy. The brain simply produces truths that will never fully fit one mode. And so it is with the root axioms we all collect in our mind knowingly or unknowingly.

In this way we should accept that things are as they are...to an extent. We should be prepared to accept that one thing can have conflicting qualities in a variety of ways.

At the simplest layer of human vision the distance of an object is determined by the conflict in the position of that object against the background as compared between our two eyes. The brain takes such incongruencies and resolves them by creating an extra dimension. This dimension transcends the sensory conflict and resolves it. Or it merely represents the reality of a two dimensional sensory system that has evolved in a three dimensional world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

From another angle to what you are saying I think...if we understand that truth comes from multiple natural systems in the brain we can say that truth will never shake down into one rational philosophy. The brain simply produces truths that will never fully fit one mode. And so it is with the root axioms we all collect in our mind knowingly or unknowingly.

What do you mean?
Can you rephrase?

In this way we should accept that things are as they are...to an extent. We should be prepared to accept that one thing can have conflicting qualities in a variety of ways.

Accept that things are more simple than we make them to be

At the simplest layer of human vision the distance of an object is determined by the conflict in the position of that object against the background as compared between our two eyes. The brain takes such incongruencies and resolves them by creating an extra dimension. This dimension transcends the sensory conflict and resolves it. Or it merely represents the reality of a two dimensional sensory system that has evolved in a three dimensional world.

Huh?

 

[sealchan]

What do you mean?
Can you rephrase?



Accept that things are more simple than we make them to be



Huh?

Sorry if my riff off of what you were saying was obscure...

I wanted take an opportunity to say how things just are what they are and explain why one might want to accept that.

Not sure this thread would support my fully unpacking my thoughts here.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry if my riff off of what you were saying was obscure...

I wanted take an opportunity to say how things just are what they are and explain why one might want to accept that.

Not sure this thread would support my fully unpacking my thoughts here.

That's basically the truth of life: it exists without us and we're not the center of the universe.

I wish I could talk to believers about what if god doesn't exist and how would they interpret meaning in life without god. I guess everyone has their truth. The thing is, are they strong enough to question for themselves the logic behind it without needing a purpose or intent to do so.

 

[WalterTrull]

Complex systemic organization of matter can give rise to matter systems or agents with the property of being able to model the environment and anticipate and manipulate that environment. To the degree this is true such a system/agent may recognize it's own capability over and above other systems and label that information, mind.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I would suggest that they are aspects of something higher.
Something that transcends both concepts.

Let's say you have a structure of matter that performs a function. If that function is a thought, then the matter is the thought and thought is the matter. The structure takes on both.

I have also ordered the book, "Science and the Primacy of Consciousness: Intimation of a 21st Century Revolution by Richard L. Amoroso," but haven't gotten it yet."

Think of you: When you think something the thought is the shape/form of what you are thinking. If you think about petting a dog, the thought in your mind is to pet a dog. Brains complicate things so there can be many thoughts at once and many in quick succession but the concept is simple.