What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[LittleNipper]

What? I didn't understand what the heck you said. Say, for example, that you claim to be a True Believer. How can I check out your claim? What should I look for? What is the distinction between a True Believer and a phony?

Fruit of the Spirit - Visible Growth in Jesus Christ
"Fruit of the Spirit" is a biblical term that sums up the nine visible attributes of a true Christian life. Using the King James Version of Galatians 5:22-23, these attributes are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. We learn from scripture that these are not individual "fruits" from which we pick and choose. Rather, the fruit of the Spirit is one ninefold "fruit" that characterizes all who truly walk in the Holy Spirit. Collectively, these are the fruits that all Christians should be producing in their new lives with Jesus Christ.
Fruit of the Spirit - The Nine Biblical Attributes
The fruit of the Spirit is a physical manifestation of a Christian's transformed life. In order to mature as believers, we should study and understand the attributes of the ninefold fruit:

Love - "And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16). Through Jesus Christ, our greatest goal is to do all things in love. "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:4-8).

Joy - "The joy of the Lord is your strength" (Nehemiah 8:10). "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Peace - "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). "May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit" (Romans 15:13).

Longsuffering (patience) -- We are "strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness" (Colossians 1:11). "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love" (Ephesians 4:2).

Gentleness (kindness) -- We should live "in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left" (2 Corinthians 6:6-7).

Goodness - "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11). "For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth" (Ephesians 5:9).

Faith (faithfulness) - "O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth" (Isaiah 25:1). "I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Ephesians 3:16-17).

Meekness - "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted" (Galatians 6:1). "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love" (Ephesians 4:2).

Temperance (self-control) - "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love" (2 Peter 1:5-7).

 

[Katzpur]

I respect Rogue because even though he is an atheist he still defends Christianity, not about it being true but defending against untrue claims about it.

I can live with that.

Then you should respect him for that. When it comes to my beliefs, I don't expect anyone to come to my defense. But Rogue Cardinal is one of the many who not only don't believe it's true, but who do make untrue claims about it. And it doesn't matter how many times any Latter-day Saint corrects him and says, "No, that's not what we believe. This is what we believe...", he continues to repeat the same half-truths, exaggerations, and misinterpretations. If you wanted to learn about Judaism, who do you think your best source of information would be -- a Muslim? If you wanted to know what Catholics really believe, would you ask a Jehovah's Witness to explain it to you? If two people were to explain Pentacostal doctrine to you, one of them being a practicing Pentacostal and the other being an Episcopalians who thought Pentacostals were a bunch of nut jobs, which one do you think you'd get more accurate information from? And why in the world should Mormonism be an exception to this obviously reasonable rule?

 

[Autodidact]

Hey cmon now, I've read what the guy has said. I know what Rogue thinks of my religion. I respect him because he has a HUGE understanding of what he does not believe in.

I don't know many atheists but the few I do know, have misconceptions about Christianity, like they think getting into heaven REQUIRES good works, or that Satan rules hell, or that all we care about is outlawing abortion or making sure gay people can't marry. They have misconceptions about the thing they reject.

I respect Rogue because even though he is an atheist he still defends Christianity, not about it being true but defending against untrue claims about it.

I can live with that.

Well of course, all of these things are true (about some people's Christianity) and false (about others.) Because there is no one thing called "Christianity." There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that is not consistent with some version of "Christianity" and believed by some people who call themselves Christian. Yes, even including the divinity of Christ. I had a guy here who's username is gzusfreek, believe it or not, post these words: "Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God."

 

[Autodidact]

Fruit of the Spirit - Visible Growth in Jesus Christ
"Fruit of the Spirit" is a biblical term that sums up the nine visible attributes of a true Christian life. Using the King James Version of Galatians 5:22-23, these attributes are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. ...

So, if I understand you right, anyone who exhibits love, joy, peach, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith and meekness is a true believer, and anyone who doesn't isn't?

So, for example, my lovely gf, who does not believe in any God, is a True believer, as is the Dalai Lama and Gandhi, but James Dobson and Pat Robertson, to choose two prominent Christians, are not?

 

[Clear]

jabberwockybruno said : “I respect Rogue because even though he is an atheist he still defends Christianity, not about it being true but defending against untrue claims about it.”

Katzpur replied : “Rogue Cardinal is one of the many who not only don't believe it's true, but who do make untrue claims about it. And it doesn't matter how many times any Latter-day Saint corrects him and says, "No, that's not what we believe. This is what we believe...", he continues to repeat the same half-truths, exaggerations, and misinterpretations. If you wanted to learn about Judaism, who do you think your best source of information would be -- a Muslim?”

Katzpur, I agree with you that jabberwockybruno is becomming confused and is accumulating a great deal of intellectual garbage and “pseudo-data” from sources that will not educate jabberwocky, but will, in the main, only serve to create incorrect biases. For example: I am no expert, but I agree that the reference to Kolob is not even in the Book of Mormon and the only motive to bring it up is for the "controversial" value. Little nippers prior “criteria” of “true believers” should have included a “respect for the truth”. Though I am intensely interested in the salvific doctrines of Christianity as they relate to the LDS, I stayed out of this thread until now because it was so incredibly full of nonsensical and untrue claims that there was no real purpose to become involved. I very much agree with Katzpur that it makes NO sense to seek tainted sources of information on a subject and then smugly tell one’s self that we are then becoming properly educated on a subject.

One problem with almost all religionists or atheists is that they create a CARICATURE of a religion (usually they do this willingly) rather than studying the real thing. When we do not allow a theist to define their own beliefs on their own terms, and choose to believe another’s description instead. It is simply another form of self-deception.


Katzpur, you mentioned that “Heaven” is a “real place” where God lives. I have always been interested in the original Christian doctrines regarding a physical universe and a physical creation (as opposed to the doctrine of creation from “nothing” that modern Christianity has adopted). If I am correct, the LDS believe in the ancient Christian doctrine of creation from matter. Is this doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, or from another source?

Clear
eiacsenetr

 

[madhatter85]

Katzpur, you mentioned that “Heaven” is a “real place” where God lives. I have always been interested in the original Christian doctrines regarding a physical universe and a physical creation (as opposed to the doctrine of creation from “nothing” that modern Christianity has adopted). If I am correct, the LDS believe in the ancient Christian doctrine of creation from matter. Is this doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, or from another source?

Clear
eiacsenetr

Mainly from the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants:
Guide to the Scriptures: Create, Creation

Create, Creation See also Beginning; Earth; Jesus Christ; Sabbath Day; Spirit Creation
To organize. God, working through his Son, Jesus Christ, organized the elements in nature to form the earth. Heavenly Father and Jesus created man in their image (Moses 2: 26-27).
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, Gen. 1: 1. Let us make man in our image, Gen. 1: 26 (Moses 2: 26-27; Abr. 4: 26). All things were made by him, John 1: 3, 10. By him were all things created that are in heaven, Col. 1: 16 (Mosiah 3: 8; Hel. 14: 12). God made the worlds by his Son, Heb. 1: 2. Man was created in the beginning, Mosiah 7: 27. I created the heavens and the earth and all things, 3 Ne. 9: 15 (Morm. 9: 11, 17). All men were created in the beginning after mine own image, Ether 3: 15. Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth, D&C 14: 9. He created man, male and female, after his own image, D&C 20: 18. Worlds without number have I created, Moses 1: 33. By mine Only Begotten I created heaven, Moses 2: 1. I, the Lord God, created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth, Moses 3: 5. Millions of earths like this would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations, Moses 7: 30. The Gods organized and formed the heavens, Abr. 4: 1.

BIBLE DICTIONARY
Spirit
The word spirit is used in several ways in the scriptures. Probably the basic use has to do with the conscious intelligent individual entity that had an existence previous to mortality. That is, all forms of living things - man, beast, and vegetation - existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2: 5; 1 Ne. 11: 11; Ether 3: 15-16; D&C 77: 2; 129; Moses 3: 4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter, but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131: 7).
Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents previous to being born to mortal parents on the earth (cf. Heb. 12: 9). Thus each one of us is a dual being: an immortal spirit body, clothed with a body of flesh and bone. As defined in scripture, the spirit and the body constitute the mortal soul (D&C 88: 15; cf. Gen. 2: 7; Moses 3: 7-9; Abr. 5: 7). A spirit can live independent of a body, but the body cannot live without the spirit (cf. James 2: 26). In the resurrection, the immortal spirit is reunited with the same body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: The union will be permanent, and the body will not be subject to aging and death.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

You forgot about the whole sale plagiarism of entire pages.

Whines the guy with that studies from a set of books that are almost nothign but whole sale plagiarism.

 

[Renji]

Contradictions in Mormonism

"Contradictions" in the Book of Mormon and J. Smith's teachings.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

Hey cmon now, I've read what the guy has said. I know what Rogue thinks of my religion. I respect him because he has a HUGE understanding of what he does not believe in.

I don't know many atheists but the few I do know, have misconceptions about Christianity, like they think getting into heaven REQUIRES good works, or that Satan rules hell, or that all we care about is outlawing abortion or making sure gay people can't marry. They have misconceptions about the thing they reject.

I respect Rogue because even though he is an atheist he still defends Christianity, not about it being true but defending against untrue claims about it.

I can live with that.

you are a fair and balanced man. You are an asset to your religion. If people would get past their egos and open their mind.....a lot could be accomplished in understanding each other.

 

[Autodidact]

Katzpur, I agree with you that jabberwockybruno is becomming confused and is accumulating a great deal of intellectual garbage and “pseudo-data” from sources that will not educate jabberwocky, but will, in the main, only serve to create incorrect biases. For example: I am no expert, but I agree that the reference to Kolob is not even in the Book of Mormon and the only motive to bring it up is for the "controversial" value. Little nippers prior “criteria” of “true believers” should have included a “respect for the truth”. Though I am intensely interested in the salvific doctrines of Christianity as they relate to the LDS, I stayed out of this thread until now because it was so incredibly full of nonsensical and untrue claims that there was no real purpose to become involved. I very much agree with Katzpur that it makes NO sense to seek tainted sources of information on a subject and then smugly tell one’s self that we are then becoming properly educated on a subject.

One problem with almost all religionists or atheists is that they create a CARICATURE of a religion (usually they do this willingly) rather than studying the real thing. When we do not allow a theist to define their own beliefs on their own terms, and choose to believe another’s description instead. It is simply another form of self-deception.


Katzpur, you mentioned that “Heaven” is a “real place” where God lives. I have always been interested in the original Christian doctrines regarding a physical universe and a physical creation (as opposed to the doctrine of creation from “nothing” that modern Christianity has adopted). If I am correct, the LDS believe in the ancient Christian doctrine of creation from matter. Is this doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, or from another source?

Clear
eiacsenetr

But, as I say, especially as regards Christianity, there is not single real thing. The real thing encompasses a variety of beliefs, many of which contradict each other, and no one has the right or power to declare which one is the real real thing. Each believer believes, of course, that her Christianity is the real one, and all the others mistaken.

I guess the most accurate way to talk about Christianity is as a conglomeration of belief systems that span a spectrum from A to Z, but that makes it pretty hard to discuss.

This is also true of Mormonism, although to a lesser degree. For example, most believe the BoM statements about Lamanites etc. are literally true, while others believe they're an allegory for something. If you include FLDS, then it's quite true of Mormonism as well.

 

[LittleNipper]

Then you should respect him for that. When it comes to my beliefs, I don't expect anyone to come to my defense. But Rogue Cardinal is one of the many who not only don't believe it's true, but who do make untrue claims about it. And it doesn't matter how many times any Latter-day Saint corrects him and says, "No, that's not what we believe. This is what we believe...", he continues to repeat the same half-truths, exaggerations, and misinterpretations. If you wanted to learn about Judaism, who do you think your best source of information would be -- a Muslim? If you wanted to know what Catholics really believe, would you ask a Jehovah's Witness to explain it to you? If two people were to explain Pentacostal doctrine to you, one of them being a practicing Pentacostal and the other being an Episcopalians who thought Pentacostals were a bunch of nut jobs, which one do you think you'd get more accurate information from? And why in the world should Mormonism be an exception to this obviously reasonable rule?

I believe Christians should only care for things concerning CHRIST and let the dead deal with dead issues. Also GOD does the convicting and saving. HE never asked Christians to do that for HIM or get offended when people don't believe what a Christian presents. They are to be long suffering not trying to look always right.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, you mentioned that “Heaven” is a “real place” where God lives. I have always been interested in the original Christian doctrines regarding a physical universe and a physical creation (as opposed to the doctrine of creation from “nothing” that modern Christianity has adopted). If I am correct, the LDS believe in the ancient Christian doctrine of creation from matter. Is this doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, or from another source?

I'm trying to recall any mention of it in The Book of Mormon, but I'm not coming up with anything. The Pearl of Great Price and Section 131 of The Doctrine and Covenants would be the best sources of official doctrine on the creation and they don't say a great deal about it. Of course, you've almost certainly run across the King Follett Discource which, of all the non-canonical sources of information about God and the creation, is the one quoted most frequently and most generally accepted among members of the church. If you haven't read this particularly commentary on it, it might interest you: The King Follett Discourse in the Light of Ancient and Medieval Jewish and Christian Beliefs. Creatio ex niliho, which is just a brief FAIRwiki article, is also worth reading. There was once an online article, "Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrine of God and Creation in Early Christianity" by Keith Norman. It may be available through BYU studies, but I couldn't find it online. Finally, Doctrinal Trends in Early Christianity and the Strength of the Mormon Position by Barry Bickmore is good. If you're looking for strictly scriptural sources, I'm thinking those I already mentioned are probably your best (and possibly only) bet.
http://www.geocities.com/aselahx/exnihilo.html

 

[Autodidact]

I believe Christians should only care for things concerning CHRIST and let the dead deal with dead issues. Also GOD does the convicting and saving. HE never asked Christians to do that for HIM or get offended when people don't believe what a Christian presents. They are to be long suffering not trying to look always right.

So if Jesus didn't mention it, you're not concerned about it?

 

[Katzpur]

Contradictions in Mormonism

"Contradictions" in the Book of Mormon and J. Smith's teachings.

Grandson, I had not expected this from you.

 

[Renji]

Grandson, Im surprised at you.

Why? Forgive me if that offended you, I'm sorry.:sorry1: I just want to ask about that article that I found.

 

[LittleNipper]

So, if I understand you right, anyone who exhibits love, joy, peach, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith and meekness is a true believer, and anyone who doesn't isn't?

So, for example, my lovely gf, who does not believe in any God, is a True believer, as is the Dalai Lama and Gandhi, but James Dobson and Pat Robertson, to choose two prominent Christians, are not?

Who does the Dalai Lama and your gf place their trust & faith in?

 

[LittleNipper]

So if Jesus didn't mention it, you're not concerned about it?

If it is human nature but not of GOD ----- No.

 

[Autodidact]

Who does the Dalai Lama and your gf place their trust & faith in?

Now I'm confused. I thought you said it was about the fruits. Now you're saying it's who they trust? What if they place their trust and faith in Jesus, but don't show those fruits? What if they show those fruits, but don't believe in Jesus?

Sounds like there aren't a lot of True Believers around.

 

[Autodidact]

If it is human nature but not of GOD ----- No.

So I'm guessing then, for example, that you don't care in the least whether people love someone of the same sex or of a different sex, since Jesus didn't?

 

[LittleNipper]

Now I'm confused. I thought you said it was about the fruits. Now you're saying it's who they trust? What if they place their trust and faith in Jesus, but don't show those fruits? What if they show those fruits, but don't believe in Jesus?

Sounds like there aren't a lot of True Believers around.

Faith (faithfulness) - "O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth" (Isaiah 25:1). "I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Ephesians 3:16-17).

Faith and trust go hand in hand.