Nada
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No brother.It would have gone down either way.Jesus was sent to earth for a reason.He had a purpose.Not to start a family or continue working as a carpenter.He was sent to die for all of mankind as a ransom sacrifice.He had a mission.
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WHAT IS PAUL TEACHING?
- Thread starter 1prophet
- Start date
No brother.It would have gone down either way.Jesus was sent to earth for a reason.He had a purpose.Not to start a family or continue working as a carpenter.He was sent to die for all of mankind as a ransom sacrifice.He had a mission.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Practice what you preach?
AGAIN, YOU FOLKS KEEP GOING AROUND AND AROUND IN YOUR MIRE.
PAUL DISCUSSES IN HIS WRITINGS 2, MAYBE EVEN 3, SETS OF LAWS. MOSAIC LAW, JEWISH LAW, AND ROMAN LAW.
THE PROBLEM YOU FOLKS HAVE IS NOT BEING ABLE TO DISCERN WHEN HE IS TALKING ABOUT ONE OR THE OTHER. YOU ARE RIGHTEOUS DUE TO YOUR FOLLOWNG MOSAIC LAW. YOU ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS FOR FOLLOWING JEWISH LAW. JESUS TOLD YOU THIS AND SO IS PAUL, BUT YOU NEED TO SEE THIS.
ROMANS 7? NOT MOSAIC LAW. JEWISH LAW.
GALATIANS 4? - PART MOSAIC PART JEWISH AS HE GOES BACK AND FORTH COMPARING.
AND YOU FOLKS, JEWS INCLUDED, DO NOT UNDERSTAND JUDAISM AND THE LACK OF USE OF THE MOSAIC LAW IN JUDAISM GOING BACK TO 900BC WHEN THE LAW STARTED TO BE WATERED DOWN AND TODAY IS ONLY HELD BY THE FEW THAT STUDY IT.
PAUL DISCUSSES IN HIS WRITINGS 2, MAYBE EVEN 3, SETS OF LAWS. MOSAIC LAW, JEWISH LAW, AND ROMAN LAW.
THE PROBLEM YOU FOLKS HAVE IS NOT BEING ABLE TO DISCERN WHEN HE IS TALKING ABOUT ONE OR THE OTHER. YOU ARE RIGHTEOUS DUE TO YOUR FOLLOWNG MOSAIC LAW. YOU ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS FOR FOLLOWING JEWISH LAW. JESUS TOLD YOU THIS AND SO IS PAUL, BUT YOU NEED TO SEE THIS.
ROMANS 7? NOT MOSAIC LAW. JEWISH LAW.
GALATIANS 4? - PART MOSAIC PART JEWISH AS HE GOES BACK AND FORTH COMPARING.
AND YOU FOLKS, JEWS INCLUDED, DO NOT UNDERSTAND JUDAISM AND THE LACK OF USE OF THE MOSAIC LAW IN JUDAISM GOING BACK TO 900BC WHEN THE LAW STARTED TO BE WATERED DOWN AND TODAY IS ONLY HELD BY THE FEW THAT STUDY IT.
JESUS DID NOT COME TO DIE. HE DID NOT WANT TO DIE. IT WAS NOT HIS WILL TO DIE. AND HIS DEATH DOES NOT DIRECTLY HELP YOU OR ME IN ANY WAY. TO THINK IT DOES IS FOLLY.
HE HAD TO COME FEEL OUR PAINS, PROVE A MAN CAN KEEP THE LAW, AND SHOW SCRIPTURES TO BE TRUE.
THE CHRISTIAN DOGMA ABOUT USING HIS DEATH FOR YOUR GAIN, YOUR LACK OF KEEPING THE LAW AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT, AND THE OTHER THINGS YOU DO IS TOTAL BUNK.
HE HAD TO COME FEEL OUR PAINS, PROVE A MAN CAN KEEP THE LAW, AND SHOW SCRIPTURES TO BE TRUE.
THE CHRISTIAN DOGMA ABOUT USING HIS DEATH FOR YOUR GAIN, YOUR LACK OF KEEPING THE LAW AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT, AND THE OTHER THINGS YOU DO IS TOTAL BUNK.
RossRonin
Member
1prophet, when you say Paul discusses 3 sets of laws (Mosaic, Jewish, Roman) you may want to consider adding one more to that list: James called it the Royal law.
James 2:8 "If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well:"
The keeping of this law is what justifies a man, not the keeping of any other laws. Even the prime commandment (to love God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength) is most perfectly expressed in the love we manifest to those made in God's image:
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?"
Paul said in Romans 13:9-10 that every commandment is briefly comprehended in this one law: you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
So I would agree that by the keeping of Mosaic, Jewish, or Roman ordinances, no man is justified. But to love one's neighbor—to have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Comforter—is to fulfill the Royal law, and it is the doers of that law who are justified; for God is love, love is of God, and every one that loves is born of God. Paul concludes in 1 Corinthians 13 that without love, no works of the law can justify a man ("it profits me nothing").
James 2:8 "If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well:"
The keeping of this law is what justifies a man, not the keeping of any other laws. Even the prime commandment (to love God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength) is most perfectly expressed in the love we manifest to those made in God's image:
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?"
Paul said in Romans 13:9-10 that every commandment is briefly comprehended in this one law: you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
So I would agree that by the keeping of Mosaic, Jewish, or Roman ordinances, no man is justified. But to love one's neighbor—to have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Comforter—is to fulfill the Royal law, and it is the doers of that law who are justified; for God is love, love is of God, and every one that loves is born of God. Paul concludes in 1 Corinthians 13 that without love, no works of the law can justify a man ("it profits me nothing").
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You left out the law of faith. Go back and read some more ...and please stop shouting.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I believe you will find that the contexts between these discussions are quite different.
In Galatians, Paul is speaking to gentiles who became believers in Jesus through faith and who never practiced the mosaic law. The issue for those congregations in the region of Galatia is that certain jews in the congregations there were attempting to establish their own righteousness through the Mosaic law in place of the ‘righteousness due to faith’ provided by the new covenant. Paul is telling those gentile christians not to fall for it and revert to the mosaic law because the law is not the reason for their annointing with holy spirit...notice what Paul says: 50-52CE
Gal; 3:2 This one thing I want to ask* you: Did you receive the spirit through works of law or because of faith in what you heard?+3 Are you so senseless? After starting on a spiritual course,* are you finishing on a fleshly course?*+4 Did you undergo so many sufferings for nothing? If it really was for nothing. 5 Therefore, does the one who supplies you the spirit and performs powerful works+ among you do it because of your works of law or because of your faith in what you heard?
In Romans, Paul is speaking to both the Gentiles and Jewish christians who had a bit of rivalry between themselves. The jews thought they were superior to the gentiles because the jews had the mosaic law, and the gentiles thought they were superior to the jew because they received holy spirit without being adherents to the law. So Paul is correcting both groups to explain that Jews and Gentiles are on the same level before God.
Having the law did not make the jews more righteous, and having faith did not make the gentiles more righteous. Why? Because the standard for righteousness is 'faith & obedience'... and faith requires adherence to Gods standards which the gentiles were doing. Both groups were doing what was needed in order to have Gods approval, but each group thought better of themselves... so Paul is trying to balance out their wrong view so that they can be more unified. His letter basically exalts the righteousness of Gods law and highlights undeserved kindness he has given to gentiles who express faith.
Some of the points he makes in Romans are as follows:
1. Faith is essential for salvation; the scripture says, “The righteous one—by means of faith he will live”
2. The Jews, although highly favored by God, have not been able to attain to righteousness by means of the Law
3. Jews (who adhered to mosaic law) as well as non-Jews are all under sin; “there is not a righteous man, not even one” hence it is clear that the mosaic law did not make the jews righteous because no jew could fulfill all its requirements, they all failed at some points of the law.
4. By God’s undeserved kindness both Jews and non-Jews can be declared righteous as a free gift through faith, just as Abraham was counted righteous as a result of faith—even before he was circumcised
truth4u
New Member
May I ask, please, how you define "the law of Christ?" What does the following verse mean to you?
Galatians 6:2 Common English Bible (CEB)
2 Carry each other’s burdens and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Carpenter, fisherman, devout Jew, arguing with the temple priests, 'normal' Rabbi, worshipped as divine. 'Doing the fathers will', telling His followers they don't know the father except through Him.
There are some more questions.
O.k., to answer the OP question, Paul was the most devout and accurate follower of Jesus, the 'later' epistles that somewhat seem to contradict Pauls teachings are just that, later, added writings that not all Xians even accept.
The Pauline criticisms usually have it backward, they take the stance of some 'teacher Jesus' who was later given divinity by Paul, unfortunately this leaves more problems than anything, as Judaic belief has always included verbal Torah, hence the necessity of the Jewish 'priests' or ones with authority to note what is legit teachings and what isn't.
There are some more questions.
O.k., to answer the OP question, Paul was the most devout and accurate follower of Jesus, the 'later' epistles that somewhat seem to contradict Pauls teachings are just that, later, added writings that not all Xians even accept.
The Pauline criticisms usually have it backward, they take the stance of some 'teacher Jesus' who was later given divinity by Paul, unfortunately this leaves more problems than anything, as Judaic belief has always included verbal Torah, hence the necessity of the Jewish 'priests' or ones with authority to note what is legit teachings and what isn't.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Long hair, short hair...
Paul had to write what he knew about, since he wasn't one of the original followers, he most likely needed quite a bit of literary advice from knowledgable Xians, who may or may not have fully trusted him to present Xianity in a truthful light.
Paul was writing his own gospel, but other Xians were going to be reading the text, it had to fit at least the basic tenets of the early Xian beliefs. So, if we get any vagueness it tends to be of the nature that there is ambiguity pertaining to the divinity of Jeshua ONLY WHERE IT ISN'T EXPLICITLY BEING STATED in books such as Hebrews and other places, where Jesus is called 'God', the creator etc etc. In the original translation, 'God' and 'Lord' both used for Jesus, is the same Divine signifier used for the 'father', the Bible calls Jesus 'God' so many times one literally has to change the text to almost complete metaphor to take the divine status away from Him.
Paul had to write what he knew about, since he wasn't one of the original followers, he most likely needed quite a bit of literary advice from knowledgable Xians, who may or may not have fully trusted him to present Xianity in a truthful light.
Paul was writing his own gospel, but other Xians were going to be reading the text, it had to fit at least the basic tenets of the early Xian beliefs. So, if we get any vagueness it tends to be of the nature that there is ambiguity pertaining to the divinity of Jeshua ONLY WHERE IT ISN'T EXPLICITLY BEING STATED in books such as Hebrews and other places, where Jesus is called 'God', the creator etc etc. In the original translation, 'God' and 'Lord' both used for Jesus, is the same Divine signifier used for the 'father', the Bible calls Jesus 'God' so many times one literally has to change the text to almost complete metaphor to take the divine status away from Him.
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You have to read the bible to put it in context.
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Ok, why don't you give us a guideline for determining which law is being spoken of at a certain verse.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
The logic on this thread is just plain silly. You can't state in one breath "we can't be righteous through the law" and then state "we must love our neighbor as ourself". This LAW IS A PART OF THE LAW OF MOSES. Nor does keeping this commandment absolve your need to keep the rest of the commandments. Loving God and loving our neighbors are the TOP commands, and the most important. Every other command is based off of these first two.
Let me give an example:
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19:18
Many love to quote this verse but few have actually read the context for what "loving your neighbor" actually means! The Torah outlines exactly how we are to "love our neighbor". Here is what it says in context:
9And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. 14Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I amthe LORD.
17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19: 9-17
You see it is impossible to actually try to divorce loving our neighbor from keeping the rest of the Torah.
Let me give an example:
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19:18
Many love to quote this verse but few have actually read the context for what "loving your neighbor" actually means! The Torah outlines exactly how we are to "love our neighbor". Here is what it says in context:
9And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. 14Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I amthe LORD.
17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19: 9-17
You see it is impossible to actually try to divorce loving our neighbor from keeping the rest of the Torah.
You are quoting an English version of the Bible that was translated by people who already held a bias against the Law (Torah. The word they translated as "of" in works of the Law is the Greek word EK. It can not be truly translated as "of" and really means 'Away from" or 'out of' or 'apart from'. So Shaul (Paul) actually wrote - Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified apart from the law in the sight of God,. Same in Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds apart from the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. This agrees with James.
Shaul did not teach the Torah was abolished he upheld it just as Yeshua did. It is the corrupt English translations that have caused Shaul's writings to preach 'another gospel.
Shaul did not teach the Torah was abolished he upheld it just as Yeshua did. It is the corrupt English translations that have caused Shaul's writings to preach 'another gospel.
outhouse
Atheistically
I think Paul is simply mirroring the movement that spread like fire in Hellenistic communities in the Diaspora. Which had nothing to do with Aramaic Galilean Judaism.
Pauls Judaism has always been in question because he wanted to retain the law, but at the same time realized much of cultural Judaism would not be accepted by Gentiles in the Diaspora. There had been Hellenist worshipping Judaism for centuries that would never fully convert that were very skilled and talented in the laws and teachings of Judaism. Paul went with the flow of these communities, and fought for want he believed, but he was not alone and started nothing. People forget he joined a movement in full swing that was moving forward with or without him. His contributions to Christianity had a greater impact on the movement as the religion developed orthodoxy more so then when he was alive.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
It's too bad those translators were just so danged ignorant.
To put it in context. Paul was responsible for spreading Christianity to the Gentiles. Jesus was responsible for losing the Jews who rejected Jesus. They tried, convicted and put him to death for blasphemy.
So what was blasphemy to the Jews is a pillar of faith to the Christians. Irony of ironies!!!!
So what was blasphemy to the Jews is a pillar of faith to the Christians. Irony of ironies!!!!
Not ignorant they just had a bias that led them to translate as they did. The doctrines of "the Church" were already set before they translated and they translated the text according to the already accepted doctrines.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
These scriptures are not in conflict.
However, many are taught in error the meaning of these scriptures.
The only works that no one has to do any more are the ceremonial works.
We still have to obey God.
The works Paul is speaking about when he says no works, it is the works that the Jews used to have to do themselves to make themselves clean just to worship God.
The works we no longer have to do is be circumcised, adhere to a dietary law, observe special days, do various external washings, and sacrifice animals
We do not have to do those works anymore, for faith in Jesus' blood makes us clean.
The Jews used to have to do those works to make themselves clean, just to be able to go to the temple to worship God. Faith in Jesus' blood makes us clean now, and we do not have to go to a temple, because we are the temple.