WHAT IS PAUL TEACHING?

[Yes]

Many misunderstand what Paul was saying about no works.

Paul was not saying no obey.

Paul, an ex Pharisee was saying no ceremonial works.

The people used to have to do many ceremonial works just to be able to worship God.

The ceremonial works do not show what is in a person's heart; though, it is always right to obey God.

The ceremonial works do not save anymore.

Jesus fulfilled the law and makes us clean.

We still have to obey Jesus.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. See James 2:14, 17, and 22.

Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, about works, no doubt. Right after Peter says people misunderstand Paul---Peter WARNS us to obey. See 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

 

[Eileen]

AS PAUL SAYS...

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

BUT PAUL THEN SAYS THIS...

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS IS NOT IN CONFLICT?

This reading of Galatians depends on the Translation of the Greek work 'EK' as of. However even the Strongs concoran

 

[Eileen]

This reading of Galatians depends on the Translation of the Greek work 'EK' as of. However even the Strongs concoran

Sorry I got interrupted.

 

[Eileen]

I was basically saying that even the Strong's concordance gives "out of" as a legitimate translation for EK. It is the same word as in "Out of Egypt I called my son". It is used in the sense of apart from or separate from. Also, the English version of the NT is not made from the earliest Greek manuscripts we now have. Much of it came from a Latin translation of Greek manuscripts called the Textus Receptus (my spelling maybe wrong). This is where a translators bias can be seen. If you believe already that Torah was 'nailed to the cross' or is no longer in effect you would choose from the list of possible equivalent words the one that most closely fits what you believe the verse 'should be saying. I will openly admit my bias is based upon statements by Yeshua like,
Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Last I heard, heaven and earth are still here.

The oldest manuscript of Gal 3:11 that we have has Ek not EN where the English/KJV has 'justified BY the law. So it an be translated 'justified separated from the law' which brings Paul into agreement with Torah and James.

 

[Eileen]

These scriptures are not in conflict.

However, many are taught in error the meaning of these scriptures.

The only works that no one has to do any more are the ceremonial works.

We still have to obey God.

The works Paul is speaking about when he says no works, it is the works that the Jews used to have to do themselves to make themselves clean just to worship God.

The works we no longer have to do is be circumcised, adhere to a dietary law, observe special days, do various external washings, and sacrifice animals

We do not have to do those works anymore, for faith in Jesus' blood makes us clean.

The Jews used to have to do those works to make themselves clean, just to be able to go to the temple to worship God. Faith in Jesus' blood makes us clean now, and we do not have to go to a temple, because we are the temple.

Can you support the distinction 'ceremonial work' with any Tanakh of NT verses?

 

[Lyndon]

Paul was a mini Adolf Hitler going around in charge of slaughtering Christians, a mass mass murderer, then he had a "vision". He realized he could screw with much more Xians by pretending to be one of them, and twisting the words of Jesus to make his own words more important than Jesus's. In my opinion he was the antichrist foretold by Jesus, over and over he contradicted Jesus, Jesus said in Luke "ye are judged by your works" (or what we do, not say), Paul said we only need faith and we are saved, no need to do good works, we can go on sinning and just ask forgiveness. Needless to say many Christians liked Paul's heresy better than Jesus's hard work, and today 90% of what's taught in many "xian" churches comes from Paul's writings, not Jesus's. Much of Christianity, especially protestantism is more based on Paul than Jesus, what a horrible travesty that people call this sexist, homophobic, self aggrandizing lunatic a great follower of Jesus Christ, That's my opinion.

 

[Desert Snake]

Paul was a mini Adolf Hitler going around in charge of slaughtering Christians, a mass mass murderer, then he had a "vision". He realized he could screw with much more Xians by pretending to be one of them, and twisting the words of Jesus to make his own words more important than Jesus's. In my opinion he was the antichrist foretold by Jesus, over and over he contradicted Jesus, Jesus said in Luke "ye are judged by your works" (or what we do, not say), Paul said we only need faith and we are saved, no need to do good works, we can go on sinning and just ask forgiveness. Needless to say many Christians liked Paul's heresy better than Jesus's hard work, and today 90% of what's taught in many "xian" churches comes from Paul's writings, not Jesus's. Much of Christianity, especially protestantism is more based on Paul than Jesus, what a horrible travesty that people call this sexist, homophobic, self aggrandizing lunatic a great follower of Jesus Christ, That's my opinion.

Paul was greater than jesus. We don't even know what jesus supposedly taught if it wasn't for Paul. Paul gave us all the religious beliefs we associate with xianity. Jesus didn't even write anything, we don't know if he was a carpenter, a fisherman, or what. All we get is quasi second hand teachings that hardly make sense without Paul to interpret them for us. I'm not saying jesus was a bum, but making a comparison between the master, Paul, the great apostle, and the anonymous supposed fisherman "jesus" is not intellectually responsible.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ok joking aside. Paul gives us many great teachings, if you don't like them, no is asking anyone to follow them. Paul was in essence a great thinker, but more importantly, a devout Xian.

 

[Lyndon]

Well if you want to understand Paul, let me give you an analogy, Heinrich Himmler has a vision, converts to Judaism, and starts a great Judaic revival, and becomes the greatest Jewish rabbi in history next to Moses. Sounds crazy, but that's exactly like the story of Paul and you call him a great thinker, how great a thinker do you have to be to start out as a Pharisee mass murderer of newly believing followers of Jesus AND a jewish traitor working for the Romans. I'm sorry but a facist mass murderer can repent, but not to go on to be a true great leader we should follow over Jesus of all "people", but I guess logic doesn't enter into it, just blind faith!!

 

[Desert Snake]

LOL, typical protestant!! haha

??
What makes adherence to Pauls teaching a 'protestant' thing?

 

[Lyndon]

The belief of righteousness by faith as opposed to righteousness by deeds or works, the catholics tend to the latter whereas the whole protestant reformation was based on making Paul's writing more important (and printed for the public to read in German), and righteousness by faith not works. The catholics believed the Bible was too easy to misunderstand and should be hidden and "explained" by the priests and wouldn't even let the lay followers read the whole bible.

 

[Desert Snake]

The belief of righteousness by faith as opposed to righteousness by deeds or works, the catholics tend to the latter whereas the whole protestant reformation was based on making Paul's writing more important (and printed for the public to read in German), and righteousness by faith not works. The catholics believed the Bible was too easy to misunderstand and should be hidden and "explained" by the priests and wouldn't even let the lay followers read the whole bible.

I don't understand why you would equate my statements as just 'protestant. You are making a 'comparison' between 'catholic' and 'protestant', and making it relevant to my comments, when it isn't. I actually don't subscribe to the entire 'argument' of 'works over faith' etc. I don't think they are separate in Xianity. You also need to explain what specific things you are arguing or trying to argue before we can engage in debate. You also didn't answer my question. What makes adherence to Pauls writings a "Protestant" thing?
Are you saying non Protestants don't adhere to Pauls writings, or what?

 

[Lyndon]

I don't understand why you would equate my statements as just 'protestant. You are making a 'comparison' between 'catholic' and 'protestant', and making it relevant to my comments, when it isn't. I actually don't subscribe to the entire 'argument' of 'works over faith' etc. I don't think they are separate in Xianity. You also need to explain what specific things you are arguing or trying to argue before we can engage in debate. You also didn't answer my question. What makes adherence to Pauls writings a "Protestant" thing?
Are you saying non Protestants don't adhere to Pauls writings, or what?

Big misunderstanding, when you posted your sarcastic paragraph about Paul being greater than Jesus, I made the comment LOL, that's so protestant, ha ha, then deleted it but you had already saved it. I was joking that your sarcastic post about Paul being greater than Jesus is actually how many Protestants teach, although they will never admit it. Nothing directed at you personally, sorry.

But referencing my last posting; the Protestant reformation was largely a movement to bring greater attention to Paul's writings than had been traditionally give to Paul's writings by the Catholic church, hence "that's so Protestant".

The whole righteousness by faith movement is much more prevalent in Protestant Religions than in Catholicism. At least that is my understanding of it, I'm not a theologian or anything, so I could be wrong about some of this stuff, I haven't been involved In Xianity(as opposed to respecting Jesus' words) for some years.

 

[Desert Snake]

Big misunderstanding, when you posted your sarcastic paragraph about Paul being greater than Jesus, I made the comment LOL, that's so protestant, ha ha, then deleted it but you had already saved it. I was joking that your sarcastic post about Paul being greater than Jesus is actually how many Protestants teach, although they will never admit it. Nothing directed at you personally, sorry.

But referencing my last posting; the Protestant reformation was largely a movement to bring greater attention to Paul's writings than had been traditionally give to Paul's writings by the Catholic church, hence "that's so Protestant".

Here are some points of my belief.
-Non Christians are not necessarily 'going to hell', simply for being no xians.
-'Works over faith', faith over works', are not legit arguments, scripturally, as neither is proposed in an absolute manner.
-Xians may or may not adhere to various OT 'laws', it is somewhat up to them. (As can be argued from scripture.)
-Baptism isn't 'necessary' for "salvation". ( I really don't use the word salvation, but you get my point.
I use the 'OT', but do not subscribe to many of the Christian speculations regarding 'prophecy' and such which they 'cross reference between OT and NT.

 

[Lyndon]

Disciple, I like your last post, you seem like a very thoughtful person, here's my confession.

I consider myself a follower of Jesus' teachings, Christian may be a misnomer for me, as I have no complete trust in the Old testament, and no respect at all for Paul. Most of my life I have called myself a Buddhist, but recently from exposure to Buddhist forums and massive reading of Buddhist scripture, I disagree strongly with the Buddha's seeming to teach that we have no soul, and seeming to say that there is no one God worthy of worship, that can be relied on to help and sustain me. I have no less trust for Muslim teachings than Christian ones, 1/2 of the holy Koran is devoted to the story and teachings of Issa (Jesus in Arabic) But honestly I find Christianity, Islam and Judaism as too extreme and much to prone to violence for me. I flat out have no need to believe that Jesus is God, the son of God, or perfect, The perfect wisdom of his teachings speak for themselves, I do not believe God required Jesus' blood sacrifice, only sinful people wanted that. I believe Actions speak louder than words, and what you believe and think is much less important than what your beliefs and thoughts make you do, its what you do, and what you do to better your life that counts.

 

[Yes]

Can you support the distinction 'ceremonial work' with any Tanakh of NT verses?

For hundreds of years, the Jews had to do certain works, just to be able to worship God.

Those works were these:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

Those are the works people used to have to do just to be able to worship God.

Those are the works the ex Pharisee Paul was speaking about.

Just image, people used to have to do all those works just to make themselves clean to come before God.

Now, we can boldly go before the throne, just by faith in Jesus.

It must have been absolutely amazing and almost unbelievable that now, a person does not have to do those things anymore, and that a person only has to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans them.

 

[Yes]

Disciple, I like your last post, you seem like a very thoughtful person, here's my confession.

I consider myself a follower of Jesus' teachings, Christian may be a misnomer for me, as I have no complete trust in the Old testament, and no respect at all for Paul. Most of my life I have called myself a Buddhist, but recently from exposure to Buddhist forums and massive reading of Buddhist scripture, I disagree strongly with the Buddha's seeming to teach that we have no soul, and seeming to say that there is no one God worthy of worship, that can be relied on to help and sustain me. I have no less trust for Muslim teachings than Christian ones, 1/2 of the holy Koran is devoted to the story and teachings of Issa (Jesus in Arabic) But honestly I find Christianity, Islam and Judaism as too extreme and much to prone to violence for me. I flat out have no need to believe that Jesus is God, the son of God, or perfect, The perfect wisdom of his teachings speak for themselves, I do not believe God required Jesus' blood sacrifice, only sinful people wanted that. I believe Actions speak louder than words, and what you believe and think is much less important than what your beliefs and thoughts make you do, its what you do, and what you do to better your life that counts.

I hope that you give me a chance to explain God's Truth to you.

 

[Lyndon]

So when Jesus says works, and Paul says works, they are entirely different concepts, seems like an argument only a diligent scholar in Greek and Aramaic could settle. not me.

 

[Lyndon]

I hope that you give me a chance to explain God's Truth to you.

Sorry not interested, you lost me with this statement;

"It must have been absolutely amazing and almost unbelievable that now, a person does not have to do those things anymore, and that a person only has to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans them."

What's wrong with America today is right wing Christians that think they are saved by faith and grace, doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught in the Gospels, oppressing the poor, down and out, disabled and sick people that Jesus cared about the most, all the time rewarding the most arrogant selfish dishonest businessmen and corporations in the world. Following Jesus is not about believing he is God, its about doing what he says every day to the best of your ability, actions speak louder than words, and most people's faith is just an excuse to go on sinning, IMHO

 

[Yes]

So when Jesus says works, and Paul says works, they are entirely different concepts, seems like an argument only a diligent scholar in Greek and Aramaic could settle. not me.

Listen, Satan wants you to be confused, and I have been confused, and now I want to help others not be confused.

Many misunderstand Paul about no works, they mistakenly teach that Paul is saying to simply believe and do nothing more. They preach that we are to believe and do not obey, or else you fall into a works salvation, which, according to them, is condemnable.

I tell you, that obeying Jesus is exactly how we are to find the Truth.