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cladking

Well-Known Member
The ship has sailed and its captain is a mystic...

The idea that Peers are best suited to determine reality is mystical. Even if peers were still mostly all critical thinkers the simple fact is ONLY experiment determines reality. But Peers are no longer as much critical thinkers as they are businessmen who must keep in one another's good graces as the lure public money to maintain the status quo. Much of science now days is highly mystical because schools no longer teach, they indoctrinate and nobody is taught metaphysics.

Without an understanding of why science works one can still use it but it might as well be magic and its practitioners witchdoctors and mystics.

The path ahead is going to be treacherous if we don't change our course. Ancient technology saved the survivors of Babel 1.0 but modern technology requires all parts to work so Babel 2.0 will be a far more serious threat to the human race (homo omnisciencis).
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The idea that Peers are best suited to determine reality is mystical. Even if peers were still mostly all critical thinkers the simple fact is ONLY experiment determines reality. But Peers are no longer as much critical thinkers as they are businessmen who must keep in one another's good graces as the lure public money to maintain the status quo. Much of science now days is highly mystical because schools no longer teach, they indoctrinate and nobody is taught metaphysics.

Without an understanding of why science works one can still use it but it might as well be magic and its practitioners witchdoctors and mystics.

The path ahead is going to be treacherous if we don't change our course. Ancient technology saved the survivors of Babel 1.0 but modern technology requires all parts to work so Babel 2.0 will be a far more serious threat to the human race (homo omnisciencis).
Back to your false claims about others. It is sad that you have to quote yourself.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No, your last statement made me laugh. Your arguments are so poor that they tell me that you could not do the math. We are talking about your model, doing the math is part of it. You do not even understand why ramps would have been used. Here is a hint, there is another way to go up ramps without dragging them. Those that understand basic engineering can see how you are using a strawman argument.

All mechanical advantage requires more work not less. If you have some cockeyed idea about pry bars or the like then you are introducing even lower efficiency. It's very difficult to come up with any kind of idea worse than using ramps but pushing prying or whatever you're thinking of is worse.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
All mechanical advantage requires more work not less. If you have some cockeyed idea about pry bars or the like then you are introducing even lower efficiency. It's very difficult to come up with any kind of idea worse than using ramps but pushing prying or whatever you're thinking of is worse.

This is incorrect. You are making an improper assumption that they could lift the blocks vertically in the first place. Here is one thing that you need to remember, no pulleys allowed. They were not invented at that time. But there is a far simpler invention that did exist at that time. It greatly reduces friction when moving horizontally. They actually had a more modern version, which I doubt if they used, and clearly a more basic version was available to them.

What was it?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
That was respectful. Sometimes the truth hurts. I did not call you any names such as . . .well let's not even go there.
It now appears that you do not like the scientific method. What better method do you have?
I said:
As already said:
Just don´t bother to reply if you cannot find a respectful tone.

Going through this thread, you dont contribute with much more but your personal downgrading comments and no philosophical thoughts at all.

Instead of derailing this thread with your personal and emotional approach, I can as the OP holder recommend Facebook or Twitter for your further practice.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I said:
As already said:
Just don´t bother to reply if you cannot find a respectful tone.

Going through this thread, you dont contribute with much more but your personal downgrading comments and no philosophical thoughts at all.

Instead of derailing this thread with your personal and emotional approach, I can as the OP holder recommend Facebook or Twitter for your further practice.
Not true. Your complaint might be valid if there was any merit to your attack on science. Meanwhile, what was the point of the first video?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
(# 1) Not true. Your complaint might be valid if there was any merit to your attack on science. ( # 2) Meanwhile, what was the point of the first video?
Ad 1: I don´t know of anything "attacking science", as this OP is about a philosophical debate.

Ad 2: So you´ve participated in this OP thread without being familiar with the video contents in the first hand and making your own conclusion and philosophical approach?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is incorrect. You are making an improper assumption that they could lift the blocks vertically in the first place. Here is one thing that you need to remember, no pulleys allowed. They were not invented at that time. But there is a far simpler invention that did exist at that time. It greatly reduces friction when moving horizontally. They actually had a more modern version, which I doubt if they used, and clearly a more basic version was available to them.

What was it?

Your post is illogical and non-sequitur and is also wandering from the topic of the thread.

Somehow you have the idea that science can be defended by the restatement of conclusions and scientific beliefs. You have the idea that no understanding of the nature of science is necessary to make new discoveries or to defend what you perceive to be science. You believe that by ignoring any opposing argument to your belief in science there is no need for you to present a cogent argument yourself.

Mechanical advantage necessarily increases total work whether you understand why or not. Anyone who has ever removed an engine from a car without a hoist will tell you that you should use a hoist but there is still more work expended. Theory and calculations will rarely tell you how anything came into existence; you either deduce the processes involved through known science and physical evidence or you'll never know. God never mustta needed giraffes to eat the leaves high in the trees. The laws of nature didn't mandate a tall creature to pollinate high flowers. There was not only one way to create sky high blood pressure so they mustta used giraffes. Most of what we all believe is nonsensical and derived from more fundamental beliefs and from the way we think (therefore we exist).

All homo omnisciencis in all cases start with the conclusion (they mustta used ramps) and work back from there to prove it. We can not tell the difference between evidence and reality which is why experiment was invented in the first place.

And now you will ignore every point in this post just like believers ignore almost every point in almost every post. Don't tell me your conclusions. I already know your conclusions (Peers have every answer and they mustta used ramps). Tell me how you know and how what you do know actually relates to anything anyone else is saying. How does your "knowledge" that mechanical advantage saves work relate to the means used to build pyramids or relate to my evidence that it never happened?

I have much more than that, but that is all that is needed to refute you.

So your contention is you can ignore all opposing argument and just gainsay everything because anyone you believe is attacking science deserves no better!!!

The real damage to science always comes from the inside. It comes from mystics primarily.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ad 1: I don´t know of anything "attacking science", as this OP is about a philosophical debate.

Ad 2: So you´ve participated in this OP thread without being familiar with the video contents in the first hand and making your own conclusion and philosophical approach?
It is not a philosophical debate, it is only claimed to be one.. Why would I watch the second video when you couldn't even justify the first one?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I suppose there is a certain sense in which this is true, at least concerning The Scientific Method presented in e.g., science education classes and textbooks (up to and including college), popular science books, popular science magazines and online equivalents, etc. As we don’t actually use The Scientific Method in scientific research and never have, and as it exists only as a kind of pedagogical lie and popular myth, it would be rather difficult for any practicing scientist to have any assumptions about The Scientific Method that is relevant to their work.

But if you mean refer to “scientific methods” actually used by practicing scientists, then there are a whole slew of assumptions that vary widely from field to field but are always present (explicitly or implicitly). Then there are the sets of assumptions practicing scientists rely on (again, both explicitly and implicitly) that vary within any given field based on different approaches and often correspondingly based on (usually tacit, even unconscious) metaphysical, philosophical, even political worldviews.

That there are always assumptions at play in scientific research is perhaps less important for non-scientists to understand (at least initially) than is the fact that The Scientific Method that most of us learned in school (and which may have been reinforced elsewhere, such as e.g., popular science books, articles, podcasts, etc.) is a myth. Interestingly, its form (at least in the US) has a rather singular source, being largely borrowed with little variation by the publishers of the early 20th century (seeking to meet a new demand from the rapidly growing education system) from an influential book on the relevance of logic by John Dewey: How We Think
"Dewey was not the first to try to separate the intellectual process of scientific reasoning from the laboratory method of instruction to which it had been wed since the 1880s...
Ironically, none of his discussions of science education clearly laid out what became known as the steps of the scientific method. The work that spelled these out and that was ultimately responsible for reifying the five-step process in the nation’s classrooms was How We Think, a short textbook for teachers that Dewey described as “an adaptation of a pragmatic logic to educational method…
Despite his borrowing from the sciences, it is important to understand that Dewey did not try to provide a stepwise account of how scientists went about their work. He aimed rather to describe reflective thought in the most general sense-to detail the way people used thinking as an effective guide to practical action.”
Rudolph, J. L. (2005). Epistemology for the masses: The origins of “the scientific method” in American schools. History of Education Quarterly, 45(3), 341-376.​

The more global history (and even the American history) of this idea of The “Scientific Method” is more nuanced, of course. It is so pervasive that decades of attempts by scientific organizations such as the AAAS or NAS, a vast number of conferences, countless papers published in journals on education or more specifically on science education, and more, have all failed rather spectacularly in their attempt to reform the manner of science education to better reflect actual scientific practice and dispel the myth of The Scientific Method.

There is in general no clear cut distinction between the methods used for the growth of scientific knowledge by (among other things) scientists engaging in scientific research on the one hand, and methods used in other fields and areas of inquiry on the other. For example, what makes certain developments in mathematics “science” (usually physics) and others “mathematics” is often context. An unfortunate illustration of this and how it can slow progress is the development of gauge theory. In the physics community, this misnomer was initially proposed by Weyl and then largely (and almost immediately) rejected. It was later rediscovered during the crisis after the short-lived triumphs of QED and is now at the foundation of the standard model after the groundbreaking work by physicists (e.g., C. N. “Frank” Yang and Robert Mills of Yang-Mills theory fame).
Meanwhile, mathematicians practically next door to the leaders in the development of gauge theory were working on much the same kinds of problems as a continuation of more general mathematical developments in manifolds, differential geometry, etc.
So while physicists were developing the mathematics of gauge field theory, mathematicians were independently doing much the same work (at much the same time, albeit a bit earlier) in terms of fiber bundles, sections, connections, etc.
About a century earlier, such distinctions between physical theory and mathematical research would hardly have been possible, and indeed the historical development of field theory is a marvelous example of empirical findings providing motivation for theoretical development which was in turn the motivation for and then beneficiary of advances in mathematical physics, all by scientists for whom these distinctions are largely anachronistic and likely bordering on nonsensical.
Other examples include areas such as history, anthropology, and linguistics, in which research in the same field using different methods with different aims may fall under a different scientific discipline (e.g., biological anthropology vs. the more qualitative, social science anthropology or cognitive linguistics vs. historical/comparative linguistics) or fall outside the sciences altogether.

Thanks for the detailed response, but my interest level isn't up to getting this deep. Sorry, I'm out.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It is not a philosophical debate, it is only claimed to be one..

Everything is a philosophical debate whether you know it or not. Assumptions, definitions, axioms and a paradigm underlie science and every one of these is a philosophical concept in the framework of consciousness itself. Just as you can't remove fuel from a fire, you can't remove heat.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
It is not a philosophical debate, it is only claimed to be one.. Why would I watch the second video when you couldn't even justify the first one?
I don´t care anymore on what you´re thinking as long as you don´t listen to the linked videos and make your own philosophical thoughts, conclusions and comments.

So stop your personal and emotional minded posts - or you´ll end on my ignore list.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don´t care anymore on what you´re thinking as long as you don´t listen to the linked videos and make your own philosophical thoughts, conclusions and comments.

So stop your personal and emotional minded posts - or you´ll end on my ignore list.
I listened to one of the videos and no one could justify it. And I did make my thoughts clear. You haven't. At least not in response.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Philosophical OP subject, “Black holes”.

Sabine Hossenfelder:

“I stopped working on black hole information loss. Here’s why”:


Sabines Abstract:
You may have recently seen headlines claiming that the black hole information loss paradox was solved. What is this paradox? Has it really been solved? And what are you to make of these headlines? In this video I'll break it down for you.

Video Content:

0:00 Intro
0:48 What's the Black Hole Information Loss Paradox?
5:40 The most recent attempt to solve it
7:03 Why the problem is unsolvable

My comment:

I find it very remarkable that astrophysicists and cosmologists even hypothesizes such thing as a spacial “black hole” and its connected 2D flat singularity descriptions and loss of information.

IMO this “information loss” already occurs by using the gravitational thoughts to govern everything in the Universe.

I have the galactic "hole" to be "a whirling funnel of transformation and formation" of stars and planets primarily in the galactic centers, from where strong gamma- and x-rays are beaming out of the two galactic holes/poles as the result of a specific E&M nuclear formation process.

This galactic funnel is of course not 2D but 3D in where gaseous matters are flowing into the funnel, into the center and out again as formed stars and planets, hence all the informations are still there but now transformed into new objects. It is a natural circuital motion and process.

The best terrestrial aligned object we have to comparison, is the whirling hurricanes with its central eye and its ongoing circulation of air.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Philosophical OP subject, “Black holes”.

Sabine Hossenfelder:

“I stopped working on black hole information loss. Here’s why”:


Sabines Abstract:
You may have recently seen headlines claiming that the black hole information loss paradox was solved. What is this paradox? Has it really been solved? And what are you to make of these headlines? In this video I'll break it down for you.

Video Content:

0:00 Intro
0:48 What's the Black Hole Information Loss Paradox?
5:40 The most recent attempt to solve it
7:03 Why the problem is unsolvable

My comment:

I find it very remarkable that astrophysicists and cosmologists even hypothesizes such thing as a spacial “black hole” and its connected 2D flat singularity descriptions and loss of information.

IMO this “information loss” already occurs by using the gravitational thoughts to govern everything in the Universe.

I have the galactic "hole" to be "a whirling funnel of transformation and formation" of stars and planets primarily in the galactic centers, from where strong gamma- and x-rays are beaming out of the two galactic holes/poles as the result of a specific E&M nuclear formation process.

This galactic funnel is of course not 2D but 3D in where gaseous matters are flowing into the funnel, into the center and out again as formed stars and planets, hence all the informations are still there but now transformed into new objects. It is a natural circuital motion and process.

The best terrestrial aligned object we have to comparison, is the whirling hurricanes with its central eye and its ongoing circulation of air.

This is not philosophy. What do you think is even meant by the term information?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Subject OP: What is science and what constitutes the development of its ideas and evidences?

Can philosophy of science have an impact on physics? | Sabine Hossenfelder interview.


Sabine Hossenfelder tends to lean more and more on a philosophical approach to science.
---------------

Clifford Redin (born 15 September 1935) is a Zimbabwean ecologist, livestock farmer, and president and co-founder of the Savory Institute. He originated Holistic management (agriculture), systems thinking approach to managing resources.


About generally learning from direct observations of nature itself.

Your relevant remarks to this?

Regards
Native
Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Denmark.


Don't remember exactly where I heard this quote, but it got stuck in my mind and I agree with it also:

Philosophy is great at asking questions.
Science is great at answering them.
 
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