What is Sin?

[viole]

What about if I promise not to mention a single word about God or religion but only Logic and Physics, would you answer my questions about the Universe?

Sure. But I would have done it even if you spoke about God. After all, my views are independent from God, since I used to hold them when I believed in God, too.

The only precondition is that you ask questions that are applicable.

So, have you solved the relativistic dilemma about the ontology of time?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sure. But I would have done it even if you spoke about God. After all, my views are independent from God, since I used to hold them when I believed in God, too.

The only precondition is that you ask questions that are applicable.

So, have you solved the relativistic dilemma about the ontology of time?

Ciao

- viole

As you know, I hope, Scientists speak of the Universe as having an age. If the Universe has an age, it is only obvious that it had a beginning or was caused to exist no matter how many millions or billions of years ago. My first question is: Did the Universe cause itself to exist or something caused it to exist? As you can see, my question is related to Physics and Logic. Nothing about religions or mysteries.

 

[viole]

As you know, I hope, Scientists speak of the Universe as having an age. If the Universe has an age, it is only obvious that it had a beginning or was caused to exist no matter how many millions or billions of years ago. My first question is: Did the Universe cause itself to exist or something caused it to exist? As you can see, my question is related to Physics and Logic. Nothing about religions or mysteries.

Well, I told you. They might not be careful or just convey a message to the masses which might not know what relativity entails. It is difficult to tell normal people that things are just a set of unchanging events puntuating an eternal surface, without the necessary preparation.

Which is obvious: one of the very first findings of relativity, and probably the first thing that people learn about it, is that time is relative. So: what does age mean? Age relative to whom?

By the way, if you read Carroll or Greene, you will see that they agree with me quite explicetely (in books, not glossy magazines or the NY times). The frozen river analogy from Greene is quite illuminating. Davies is also an eternalist. Lee Smolin, too. Not to speak of Einstein who considered the flow of time a stubborn illusion. Again, here is an easy introduction: http://archive.is/0pC8J

So, are we going to engage on what scientists support or say in glossy magazines for the layman, or are we discussing science and logic with our own minds? I hope you tend for the latter, since arguments from authority will not lead you anywhere.

Let's start with the first easy question to you: do you think that concepts like change, dynamics, birth, death, etc. are applicable to 4 dimensional flat spacetimes endowed with the relativistic pseudo Riemannian metric? I just restrict to Minkowskian spacetime for the moment (special relativity), just to keep things simpler. We will move to spacetimes with a varying metric tensor field later (general relativity). After that we will move to the first equation of quantum gravitiy (Wheeler) where I will show that, if true, the state of the Universe is unchanging and eternal., as well.

So, what do you think? How can that spacetime (our local spacetime according to relativity) change in any way or form?

Ciao

- viole

 

[12jtartar]

Sin is a wrongdoing from the standpoint of God.

Nadia Faiazova,
Actually, the Bible tells us exactly what sin is, at 1John 3:4.
I believe the concept of sin is explained fully, at Romans 3:23, where we are told that all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. Reasonably then, sin is doing something different than what God would do at that time.
For the reason that we do not even know what God would do on some occasions, we sin without even knowing it, but we all sin, 1John 1:7-10. James 4:17.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I told you, your question is not applicable, for what we know. It is like asking the color of a number. And even if we found out that the question is applicable, I bet on Mother Goose. Or Thor, I mean, He looks great. Why not? Does the particular flavor of God you happen to believe in, probably because of some accidents of birth, have enough evidence to exist? If yes, why do you need cosmological arguments at all?

And what jokes are you talking about? Seriously, if I disappeared for a couple of days on Mount Pilatus in Lucerne and, on my return, told you that I have a very important message from someone claiming to be, what would be your reaction?

Would you say something like: good, that is a good start, for I would not take seriously messages from anyone claiming not to be?



Ciao

- viole

I am means almost just that. It refers to the potential instilled in man through GOD, via negation of wants of self and submitting to what is good and right at all junctures. By submitting I mean acting on and in accordance with.

Conversely; sin is the knowing denial or negation of said potential and responsibility or duty.

Just my take sorta.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

I told you, the question is not applicable. For I don't think the Universe had a cause. And I explained the reasons why I think that. So, it is your burden now to refute my absence of causality when applied to Universes, before begging a possibly meaningless question.

But let's suppose it had a cause, just for the sake of discussion. Then, I would not have the slightest clue. I claim complete ignorance.

I can make up a few possibilities that share the same evidence, if you insist

1) your God,
2) one of the other thousands of gods invented by human imagination
3) a god not imagined yet
4) an invisible giant turtle
5) mother goose
6) a quantum fluctuation burp from another universe
7) a previously contracting universe
8) aliens teleported from another dimension
9) a retroactive collapse of a quantistic wave induced by us
10) a blue fairy called Marta. A garden variety fairy that loves carrots so much that she fined tuned the Universe, so that they can exist
Etc

I could go on for ever. I can make up so many independent alternatives so that the probability of each one being the true one becomes arbirarily small.

But you did not answer my question: do you have independent evidence that your particular brand of god (and not Apollo, or Marta, for instance) exists?

If yes: why do you complicate your life with cosmological "proofs", relativity, inflationary physics and all that? That evidence should suffice. I would expect.

If not: why don't you believe in Apollo, or Zeus, as the creator of the Universe instead? Or Marta, maybe?

Ciao

- viole

I have evidence that supports the proposition that all faiths throughout time and geography actually refer to the same One Creator GOD of all existence. Does that count?

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

Sin is a fabricated social and cultural construct that has been given too much validity by the weight of the history associated with it. Modern believers will attach much more value to the idea of "sin" than anyone not of their philosophical affiliation.

It doesn't exist - it's just as fluid and fleeting as the idea of objective morality.
Any modern conversation about sin attests to this - The pious either don't believe their own claims or they purposefully ignore their holy book's teachings on the subject. Either way, it's telling.

That is contrary to the very definition of pious.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It is not that I won't let you in, but, as I said, the question makes no sense from my pont of view. It is not only that I do not believe that HaShem, whoever that is, caused the Universe. I don't think that anybody created the Universe, because, as I explained, the Universe does not have a cause, if my relativistic ontology of time is correct.

It is like asking me who made the Universe drunk. Since it is reasonable to assume that the Universe is not drunk, also this question is equally meaningless.

So, how can I answer a meaningless question?

I can try. Maybe by using an answer in the same category as the question.

What about dfhbfjnvutngutngrjfn?

Better?

Ciao

- viole

So you said you think space-time is eternal and without change, but that doesn't exactly explain why you think the matter within this space-time is too eternal or without change. It is very obvious that the objects within the universe change and galaxies die and form so could you try explaining your position some more?

Peace

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Sin = Missing the target

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well, I told you. They might not be careful or just convey a message to the masses which might not know what relativity entails. It is difficult to tell normal people that things are just a set of unchanging events puntuating an eternal surface, without the necessary preparation.

Which is obvious: one of the very first findings of relativity, and probably the first thing that people learn about it, is that time is relative. So: what does age mean? Age relative to whom?

By the way, if you read Carroll or Greene, you will see that they agree with me quite explicetely (in books, not glossy magazines or the NY times). The frozen river analogy from Greene is quite illuminating. Davies is also an eternalist. Lee Smolin, too. Not to speak of Einstein who considered the flow of time a stubborn illusion. Again, here is an easy introduction: http://archive.is/0pC8J

So, are we going to engage on what scientists support or say in glossy magazines for the layman, or are we discussing science and logic with our own minds? I hope you tend for the latter, since arguments from authority will not lead you anywhere.

Let's start with the first easy question to you: do you think that concepts like change, dynamics, birth, death, etc. are applicable to 4 dimensional flat spacetimes endowed with the relativistic pseudo Riemannian metric? I just restrict to Minkowskian spacetime for the moment (special relativity), just to keep things simpler. We will move to spacetimes with a varying metric tensor field later (general relativity). After that we will move to the first equation of quantum gravitiy (Wheeler) where I will show that, if true, the state of the Universe is unchanging and eternal., as well.

So, what do you think? How can that spacetime (our local spacetime according to relativity) change in any way or form?

Ciao

- viole

Did the Universe cause itself to exist or was it caused by something else? Or... has it always existed without having ever been caused? I am not interested if the scientists are not careful. I am only interested in your personal opinion about these items of Physics and Logic.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sin = Missing the target

If sin is as simple as to miss a hole in the golf, is it safe to say that sin is a transgression of the Law?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

If sin is as simple as to miss a hole in the golf, is it safe to say that sin is a transgression of the Law?

Indeed yes, perhaps more complex than a sports target, more a life target and the law
as its guide ...

 

[Ben Avraham]

Indeed yes, perhaps more complex than a sports target, more a life target and the law
as its guide ...

That's great as I agree with you. Thanks!

 

[jonathan180iq]

That is contrary to the very definition of pious.

That's a good observation.
Now, try and explain why the pious don't adhere to their own rhetoric. Explain why those who attempt to impose their version of morality onto others are allowed to cherry-pick which morality they like best that day. Explain why things that were considered sins in the past, are more acceptable in the present. Explain why some sins are given more weight than others, even though the Bible (which is supposedly the handbook on good and evil) makes it clear that all sins are basically equal.

See what I'm getting at?

Sin doesn't exist. It's a fluid concept that adapts to the culture of the people proclaiming it. It's a completely fabricated concept.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That's a good observation.
Now, try and explain why the pious don't adhere to their own rhetoric. Explain why those who attempt to impose their version of morality onto others are allowed to cherry-pick which morality they like best that day. Explain why things that were considered sins in the past, are more acceptable in the present. Explain why some sins are given more weight than others, even though the Bible (which is supposedly the handbook on good and evil) makes it clear that all sins are basically equal.

See what I'm getting at?

Sin doesn't exist. It's a fluid concept that adapts to the culture of the people proclaiming it. It's a completely fabricated concept.

That is to say that morality and the conscience themselves do not exist, and that is simply a false statement. I can gladly attempt to justify the adaptation of what is acceptable, but first would hope that you agree that the conscience and morality in general are real things though not exactly physical or even the product of the material necessary.

Peace

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Sin - is NEVER explained adequately in the scripture...even though it is mentioned many many times, it is never explained what it actually is....Eliab has it entirely correct - it means simply to miss the intended target - but more importantly - it implies that this failure is due to a lack of Self awareness - Self mastery - due to an error of thinking and judgement..

originally - a sinner - was someone who could not shoot a bow and arrow to any decent degree of skill....It is a purely military term that has been applied to spiritual aspects...A sinner misses the intended target because he is not good enough in the military aspect - but - WHAT is the target even, in the SPIRITUAL aspect..?.. The aim is to KNOW THE DIVINE MIND and to continually follow THAT guidance.....We "sin" whenever we fail to listen to it faithfully....

But look now at this nefarious trap they set before you....Not only do they fail to explain sin to you all - they also fail to explain HOW to attain that Divine guidance and so lift yourself from "sin"....They tell you you are "lesser" and "not worthy" - then they KEEP YOU IGNORANT ON PURPOSE - they dont even want you to succeed or rise above that which you now are and that is WHY they fail to tell you ANYTHING but allegory...

So, we are striving for, aiming for a DIVINE PRESENCE to be here among us to GUIDE us always - yes..?...This is salvation from the state of "sin"...Sin is the lack of that Divine Presence.. CHRIST will tell us and show us directly HOW TO ATTAIN that high state and HAVE that Presence here and now - thus we save our own SELF Folks - the religion though, will explain NOTHING to you, and thus you will always NEED the religion and thus they can continue to dominate you so...It is the religion itself that is KEEPING YOU IN A STATE OF SIN

See you dont have DIVINE guidance - because all you have is MANS GUIDANCE - busy now following man and mans ideas (such as here mans ideas of sin lol) - forced upon you an entire life you have now forgotten your SELF and YOUR LIVING truth - and have adopted THEIR truth in in its place time after time after time....Thus you have lost your guidance - thus you have sinned - failed to realise that you ARE DIVINE right here and right now and settled instead for secondhabnd taught truths from OTHER MEN...Following this lower guidance is ALWAYS SIN - it means you will always fail to bring forth that Presence WITHIN you and so you will miss ITS guidance in favour of THEIR guidance - and thus you WILL be led astray each and every time

Sin - is a perception of SELF - if we fail to realise we ARE DIVINE then we will sin - we have failed - and no matter what we do in life, UNLESS we realise this eternal truth of Self then we will ALWAYS fail and so always sin.. We have at present a broken and divided mind that does not hold its truth readily available and easily accessed, but rather, this mind in its PRESENT state is severely limited handicapped and ignorant - it does not comprehend its own Self its nature or its predicamant and ALL this - SELF IGNORANCE - is indeed the "state of sin" - ALL THIS - guidance from this broken divided mind - IS the state of sin...Here, I will show you my mate as He explained it to Thomas in the ORIGINAL scripture :

"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

So He hasnt mentioned sin directly yet - but clearly we see He is emphasising this issue of SELF AWARENESS yes..?.. And just as clearly He says dont even bother with the so called "leaders" who know nothing of this truth at all... Without this truth you have only poverty of spirit - you will sin - miss that intended target - fail to bring forth this Divine Presence to guide you - but come to know the Self fully and you become "children of the LIVING Father" and thus have that Presence readily available...Sin and salvation is all about SELF PERSPECTIVE = Self understanding and having THAt PRESENCE of MIND

His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

He said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

Ah so now we get closer to the nitty gritty..This is related to "sin" yes..??...To AVOID sin they ask Him - how to pray - how to fast - what of charity they ask..?....All these issues are remedies against this so called "sin" yes..??...But - look at HIS answer - simple He says - just dont tell any lies - and dont do things you loathe just because OTHERS do them...Again by the last statement we see its all about SELF PERCEPTION and being HONEST and legitimate with the Self..Sin then as we begin to see, is actually a matter of SELF DECEPTION, Self IGNORANCE...

"If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.
When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.
After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

Whats that..??.....These remedies to stop us sinning - are clearly not what we have been taught they are...here He says to fast is to bring sin down UPON your Self - if you pray for relief you will condemn your Self and if you give to charity to "repent" these perceived sins then you will HARM your spirit and not help it at all.. WOW - absolutey OPPOSITE to that which the religion has us believe - isnt it..?....Again we see we bring this "sin" to our self by our BELIEFS and ACTIONS that are LEARNED FROM OTHERS who profess ot "lead" us and know best !!!

So far we have clearly seen Him say though that its all about SELF PERCEPTION and SELF understanding , and that following other EXTERNAL guidance is a complete no no in terns of sin and salvation..Find your inner truth He says and stick to THATt truth alone always have THAT guidance Present.. Follow it ALWAYS - do NOT tell any lies - and do NOT do as OTHERS do just to be accepted by them - thus we cultivate the Mind to become sin free - thus we do indeed save our own sweet self

His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."

He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

25. Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."

First then FIND this inner Light He speaks of, the Presence of Mind it brings to everyday life.. If you dont find it within then you have failed - sinned.. LOVE and PROTECT those around and remember always THIS IS YOUR NATURE - they RE you the same, equal part yet of a greater Being...Forget this truth and you will sin - hold to this truth and you will save your Self..Let that inner light shine forth ALWAYS and follow ITS guidance ALWAYS..

This inner Light He speaks of - this is what the religion will refer to as the Holy Ghost - taught as if it was somehow seperate to you now - taught as if you are not even worthy of such a gift - taught as if you vitally need THEM the clergy to intercede on your behalf as ONLY THEY can MAKE you worthy they say - follow religion fully and bow ot our authority they insist to receive this gift...But here Christ will tell you plainly - you ALREADY HAVE IT WITHIN YOU - but are just ignorant of Who you are and your full potential

Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

All these sins we fear -are all to be forgiven ONCE we attain this new Presence - the Holy Ghost - BUT - if we fail to follow ITS guidance, then there is no hope at all He says...All about THIS vital SELF PERCEPTION - attain this new Presence of MInd as I explain it here, and see all "sin" will STOP - all the errors of lower Self judgement and lower Self guidance, will cease - and so the ACTIONS taken in life will naturally reflect the new Self understanding...BORN AGAIN as they say into a new MIND and new Self awareness AS an eternal Soul - have THAT truth fully available at all times and this confusion we call sin has already ended

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

Salvation from this sinful world comes from the SELF Folks - always did as it has always been a matter of SELF PERCEPTION and Self understanding...Mend the broken mind -seek and find this new Presence within - bring it forth HERE AND NOW in the world out there - thus you have saved your Self - thus you have given up on the lower guidance of a broken mind and adopted now the Divine Presence and allow THAT to guide ALWAYS...Follow it ALWAYS - and thus BECOME it fully - for those with ears to hear - sin is a matter of this Self ignorance we are tuaght to adopt as normal - His teaching alone shows us truly Who and What we ETERNALLY are and thus frees us from the delusion we currently perceive and the errors in truth learned from the world out there

 

[loverofhumanity]

Years ago, I was told that sin is "an offense against God". That seemed pretty simple and straight forward to me, but now and then I have heard people speak of sin as an offense against other people. So I'm wondering if they are mistaken about the nature of sin, or if sin is both an offense against God and other people, or what? That is, is sin an offense against someone, and if so, who? And more broadly, what is sin?

This question is mainly for Abrahamics, of course, but anyone can offer their views.

Baha'is understand there is no such thing as sin or original sin. Sin is a negative term like evil which is not an existence by itself like darkness does not exist but is the absence of light.

So sin is the lack of perfection.

You can read more here.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/m/merchant_concept_sin_bahai.pdf

 

[jonathan180iq]

That is to say that morality and the conscience themselves do not exist, and that is simply a false statement. I can gladly attempt to justify the adaptation of what is acceptable, but first would hope that you agree that the conscience and morality in general are real things though not exactly physical or even the product of the material necessary.

Yes, I agree.
Of course morality has a cultural existence. That's not what I'm disputing.

There are things that we, as social creatures, deem as acceptable behavior within our communal circles. What I'm saying is that there is no set standard of rigid rules regarding morality, or conscience for that matter, that broadly cover all facets of human relational dynamics. As such, we have to admit that ideas like "sin" are, just as any accepted cultural moré, social constructs and little else.

 

[viole]

Did the Universe cause itself to exist or was it caused by something else? Or... has it always existed without having ever been caused? I am not interested if the scientists are not careful. I am only interested in your personal opinion about these items of Physics and Logic.

I told you. The Universe is eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging. It simply is. At least under the premise of the Block Universe and a strict relativistic ontology of time. Even with Big Bangs, inflationary cosmology, convergence of zero geodesics, and all. And despite all the changes we experience. For, there is not such a thing as a flow of time.

So, in order for you to give some hope to the necessity of a cause, you have to first knock down this particular, albeit counterintuitive, ontology of time, also called the B theory of time, whose main motivation comes from taking relativity and 4 dimensionalism at face value.

You could still be right and, honestly, I do not find it myself very appealing that all I will ever do, love and choose, is already mapped on this eternal and unchanging 4 dimensional surface. Alas, I do not pick my conclusions based on what I find appealing.
In this case, I also have to accept the evidence given by relativity.

So, how do you intend to proceed?

Ciao

- viole

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

LoverofHumanity;

Baha'is understand there is no such thing as sin or original sin. Sin is a negative term like evil which is not an existence by itself like darkness does not exist but is the absence of light.
So sin is the lack of perfection.

Yes, as I have said before, the more I hear Bahai beliefs the more I appreciate their viewpoint and truths - very similar to that which Christ says.. There is Light within the man He says - but if it is absent there will be only darkness - we ARE the darkness until we fiind that Light - and there was never any seperation between the two, except this delusion that makes it SEEM so.. Light and dark are two extremes of the same phenomena - as are sound and silence - heat and cold etc etc...This duality is how "creation works" so to speak - yin and yang TOGETHER compliment and DEFINE each other - and through the interaction reality is perceived...

All material existance is perceived in this dualistic manner - and the human mind is no exception..ALL phenomena exist AS a duality - light DEFINES dark as sound DEFINES silence....The one aspect cannot even exist without the other to compliment and DEFINE that which it is....

Sin then - is indeed the ABSENCE of "perfection" - it is the one extreme of mind - one pole of this dualistic existance - compared to he OTHER extreme of a fully Divine Mind which IS perfection itself...Thus we ARE indeed born as "lowly sinners" - at present - using THIS low mind - compared to the potential that awaits us, as we follow Christ and reclaim our inherant Divine perfection...