What is Sin?

[Ben Avraham]

I told you. The Universe is eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging. It simply is. At least under the premise of the Block Universe and a strict relativistic ontology of time. Even with Big Bangs, inflationary cosmology, convergence of zero geodesics, and all. And despite all the changes we experience. For, there is not such a thing as a flow of time.

So, in order for you to give some hope to the necessity of a cause, you have to first knock down this particular, albeit counterintuitive, ontology of time, also called the B theory of time, whose main motivation comes from taking relativity and 4 dimensionalism at face value.

You could still be right and, honestly, I do not find it myself very appealing that all I will ever do, love and choose, is already mapped on this eternal and unchanging 4 dimensional surface. Alas, I do not pick my conclusions based on what I find appealing. In this case, I also have to accept the evidence given by relativity.

So, how do you intend to proceed?

Finally! So, you believe that the Universe is eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging! How can the Universe be eternal if it is composed of temporary parts? For instance: We are parts of the Universe; we are born, live our span of life and we die. The same happens with matter as it also experiences the same composition and process. Galaxies are born and experience their body motion and changes as the Universe expands. Well, are you still there in an eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging Universe? If you cannot explain your discrepancies of Physics, it is okay; I am very comprehensible. Perhaps you lack enough experience in the realm of Atheism.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hi Folks..

Sin - is NEVER explained adequately in the scripture...even though it is mentioned many many times, it is never explained what it actually is....Eliab has it entirely correct - it means simply to miss the intended target - but more importantly - it implies that this failure is due to a lack of Self awareness - Self mastery - due to an error of thinking and judgement..

originally - a sinner - was someone who could not shoot a bow and arrow to any decent degree of skill....It is a purely military term that has been applied to spiritual aspects...A sinner misses the intended target because he is not good enough in the military aspect - but - WHAT is the target even, in the SPIRITUAL aspect..?.. The aim is to KNOW THE DIVINE MIND and to continually follow THAT guidance.....We "sin" whenever we fail to listen to it faithfully....

Salvation from this sinful world comes from the SELF Folks - always did as it has always been a matter of SELF PERCEPTION and Self understanding...Mend the broken mind -seek and find this new Presence within - bring it forth HERE AND NOW in the world out there - thus you have saved your Self - thus you have given up on the lower guidance of a broken mind and adopted now the Divine Presence and allow THAT to guide ALWAYS...Follow it ALWAYS - and thus BECOME it fully - for those with ears to hear - sin is a matter of this Self ignorance we are tuaght to adopt as normal - His teaching alone shows us truly Who and What we ETERNALLY are and thus frees us from the delusion we currently perceive and the errors in truth learned from the world out there

What is all this big deal about the definition of sin and the method on how to get cleansed from sins? Sin by definition is no more, no less than the transgression of the Law. And about the method to get cleansed of it is to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white and snow. All we need is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) That's all folks!

 

[viole]

Finally! So, you believe that the Universe is eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging! How can the Universe be eternal if it is composed of temporary parts? For instance: We are parts of the Universe; we are born, live our span of life and we die. The same happens with matter as it also experiences the same composition and process. Galaxies are born and experience their body motion and changes as the Universe expands. Well, are you still there in an eternal, unmoving, unborn and unchanging Universe? If you cannot explain your discrepancies of Physics, it is okay; I am very comprehensible. Perhaps you lack enough experience in the realm of Atheism.

Well, this is necessary entailed in what I have been posting until now.

It might sound absurd to you, but I can assure you that this is an hypothesis which is taken seriously bt various scientists, especially relativists, and philosophers of science. Your problem is that you rely on your intuition. You probably believe that time flows. That there is a present that separates the things that do not exist anymore (our past) from the things that are yet to exist (our future).

Alas, this flow of time is nowhere to be seen in relativity. There is not such a thing as e present, and therefore there is not such a thing as the past or the future.

Probably, the best analogy is the one of a movie, even if it is not 100% accurate. Imagine a movie seen as a long sequence of photograms. Where every photogram is followed by the next in a continuous manner. What you experience now is just one of those photograms. And what you will experience tomorrow is an already existing and well defined photogram. But the whole movie did not start to exist at its first photogram, obviously. And the whole movie does no change either, equally obviously.

In order to get yourself some knowledge about the subject, All you have to to do is google around things like "B theory of time", "block universe", "eternalism" or "Rietdjik-Putnam" argument.
Or read Greene or Carroll. Or P. Davies. Or the link I posted, and start argumenting in truely scientific way instead of resorting to arguments which even my grandma can do.

Or just enthall me with your acumen by showing to me how the spacetime of special relativity, namely the 4 dimensional space with a constant relavistic metric, can change. Which, until now, you failed to do.

If, for some reason, you do not understand these concepts, which are indeed not the simplest ones, and or you cannot seriously address them, then I suggest you keep on with your illusion of causality and change being a necessity of nature.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bible Guy]

Years ago, I was told that sin is "an offense against God". That seemed pretty simple and straight forward to me, but now and then I have heard people speak of sin as an offense against other people. So I'm wondering if they are mistaken about the nature of sin, or if sin is both an offense against God and other people, or what? That is, is sin an offense against someone, and if so, who? And more broadly, what is sin?

This question is mainly for Abrahamics, of course, but anyone can offer their views.

Sin is violation of the law of Moses (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4).

We should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15).

Therefore, we should NOT violate the law of Moses.

Agreed?

 

[Kemosloby]

Sin is violation of the law of Moses (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4).

We should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15).

Therefore, we should NOT violate the law of Moses.

Agreed?

Adam didn't have the law of Moses but still sinned.

 

[Bible Guy]

Adam didn't have the law of Moses but still sinned.

Granted...but we DO have the Law of Moses.

Thus, we may now define sin as follows: "sin = violation of law of Moses" (as confirmed by Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

And, since we should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15), it follows we should NOT violate the law of Moses.

Agreed?

 

[Kemosloby]

Granted...but we DO have the Law of Moses.

Thus, we may now define sin as follows: "sin = violation of law of Moses" (as confirmed by Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

And, since we should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15), it follows we should NOT violate the law of Moses.

Agreed?

Not Read Romans 3:20. The law of Moses merely makes you aware of sin, And other places say Christians are not to be justified by keeping the Law. Sin itself could be much bigger than the law of Moses, but the law points out enough things, that nobody should have any doubt they are a sinner.

 

[Kemosloby]

Granted...but we DO have the Law of Moses.

Thus, we may now define sin as follows: "sin = violation of law of Moses" (as confirmed by Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

And, since we should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15), it follows we should NOT violate the law of Moses.

Agreed?

Sin = not believing God

 

[Bible Guy]

Not Read Romans 3:20. The law of Moses merely makes you aware of sin, And other places say Christians are not to be justified by keeping the Law. Sin itself could be much bigger than the law of Moses, but the law points out enough things, that nobody should have any doubt they are a sinner.

Sure, sin could be bigger than "violation of Mosaic Law". For example, you could propose that sin = violation of God's laws.

And yes, we are not justified by faithless obedience to law.

Nevertheless, Christians ARE expected to obey God's law:

1. Jesus said our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

2. Jesus said Torah is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:18). Thus, it is STILL in force.

3. Jesus said that those who desire eternal life should obey law (Lk. 10:25-28).

4. Jesus said we should love God (Mt. 22:37) citing Dt. 6:5 which (in context) shows that love for God is properly expressed through obedience to ALL (Dt. 6:25) Torah commands.

5. Jesus said that religious people who exemplify lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

6. Jesus said that those who exemplify lawlessness ("anomia") will suffer the punishment of the furnace of fire (Mt. 13:41-42).

7. Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-upholding ministry.

8. Jesus said that the greater AND lesser elements of Torah should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

9. Jesus applied all of these Torah-teachings to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Agreed?

 

[Kemosloby]

Sure, sin could be bigger than "violation of Mosaic Law". For example, you could propose that sin = violation of God's laws.

And yes, we are not justified by faithless obedience to law.

Nevertheless, Christians ARE expected to obey God's law:

1. Jesus said our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

2. Jesus said Torah is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:18). Thus, it is STILL in force.

3. Jesus said that those who desire eternal life should obey law (Lk. 10:25-28).

4. Jesus said we should love God (Mt. 22:37) citing Dt. 6:5 which (in context) shows that love for God is properly expressed through obedience to ALL (Dt. 6:25) Torah commands.

5. Jesus said that religious people who exemplify lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

6. Jesus said that those who exemplify lawlessness ("anomia") will suffer the punishment of the furnace of fire (Mt. 13:41-42).

7. Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-upholding ministry.

8. Jesus said that the greater AND lesser elements of Torah should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

9. Jesus applied all of these Torah-teachings to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Agreed?

Explain this,
1 cor 9:20
Paul the Servant to All
Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the Law I became like one under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law), to win those under the Law. To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law.…

 

[Kemosloby]

Sure, sin could be bigger than "violation of Mosaic Law". For example, you could propose that sin = violation of God's laws.

And yes, we are not justified by faithless obedience to law.

Nevertheless, Christians ARE expected to obey God's law:

1. Jesus said our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

2. Jesus said Torah is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:18). Thus, it is STILL in force.

3. Jesus said that those who desire eternal life should obey law (Lk. 10:25-28).

4. Jesus said we should love God (Mt. 22:37) citing Dt. 6:5 which (in context) shows that love for God is properly expressed through obedience to ALL (Dt. 6:25) Torah commands.

5. Jesus said that religious people who exemplify lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

6. Jesus said that those who exemplify lawlessness ("anomia") will suffer the punishment of the furnace of fire (Mt. 13:41-42).

7. Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-upholding ministry.

8. Jesus said that the greater AND lesser elements of Torah should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

9. Jesus applied all of these Torah-teachings to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Agreed?

I gather that from Matt 5:19 is a combination of practice what you preach. So only if you yourself keep the law perfectly are you qualified to teach others they should keep the law perfectly. So which is sin, breaking the law or teaching others to keep a law perfectly that you yourself don't keep perfectly?

 

[Bible Guy]

Explain this,
1 cor 9:20
Paul the Servant to All
Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the Law I became like one under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law), to win those under the Law. To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law.…

Sure....thanks for asking.

When Paul says we are not "under the law", he does NOT mean we should not obey the law.

Here's the proof:

1. Even though we are not "under" the law, Paul says (in the same breath) that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul believes sin is violation of the law (Rom. 7:7; 3:20; John agrees (1 Jn. 3:4)).
3. Paul taught we should not violate the law (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught we should OBEY the law (from 3).

Furthermore, the very passage you quoted has Paul stating that he is "NOT OUTSIDE THE LAW OF GOD".
Therefore, Paul UPHOLDS obedience to God's laws.
Where are God's laws found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

Again, Paul says we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), not pretend that we can disregard them due to our inability to "perfectly" obey them.

Again, Paul took a vow to prove he walked "orderly, keeping the law" (Ac. 21:24, NASB). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Thus, Paul upholds obedience to God's law, even in the very passage you quoted.

CONCLUSION: You have misread the meaning of the phrase "under the law" as used by Paul.

Paul is difficult to understand (2 Pe. 3:16).

So be careful!

Do NOT pick a Pauline passage out of the broader context of the fuller teachings of Paul, lest you twist his words to your own destruction (2 Pe. 3:16).

Agreed?

 

[Bible Guy]

I gather that from Matt 5:19 is a combination of practice what you preach. So only if you yourself keep the law perfectly are you qualified to teach others they should keep the law perfectly. So which is sin, breaking the law or teaching others to keep a law perfectly that you yourself don't keep perfectly?

Hello,

Matthew 5:19 explicitly states that your position in the forthcoming kingdom is dependent upon your obedience to (and teaching of) the law.

It does not merely say "practice what you preach".

You wrote: "So only if you yourself keep the law perfectly are you qualified to teach others they should keep the law perfectly."

My response: Rather, Jesus and the apostles obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same. We should do likewise.

Did Paul say we should keep God's commands? (1 Cor. 7:19) Of course we should! John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).
God's commands are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

Did Paul obey God's commands perfectly without ever sinning? Of course not...

Nevertheless, Paul taught obedience to law, as I've shown. We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

You wrote: "So which is sin, breaking the law or teaching others to keep a law perfectly that you yourself don't keep perfectly?"

My response: Breaking the law is sin.

Teaching obedience to law (and obeying the law) qualifies one for greatness in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Surely you do not oppose the teachings of Jesus?

Right?

 

[Kemosloby]

Sure....thanks for asking.

When Paul says we are not "under the law", he does NOT mean we should not obey the law.

Here's the proof:

1. Even though we are not "under" the law, Paul says (in the same breath) that we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul believes sin is violation of the law (Rom. 7:7; 3:20; John agrees (1 Jn. 3:4)).
3. Paul taught we should not violate the law (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught we should OBEY the law (from 3).

Furthermore, the very passage you quoted has Paul stating that he is "NOT OUTSIDE THE LAW OF GOD".
Therefore, Paul UPHOLDS obedience to God's laws.
Where are God's laws found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

Again, Paul says we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), not pretend that we can disregard them due to our inability to "perfectly" obey them.

Again, Paul took a vow to prove he walked "orderly, keeping the law" (Ac. 21:24, NASB). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Thus, Paul upholds obedience to God's law, even in the very passage you quoted.

CONCLUSION: You have misread the meaning of the phrase "under the law" as used by Paul.

Paul is difficult to understand (2 Pe. 3:16).

So be careful!

Do NOT pick a Pauline passage out of the broader context of the fuller teachings of Paul, lest you twist his words to your own destruction (2 Pe. 3:16).

Agreed?

No, I don't think you've got it.

 

[Kemosloby]

Hello,

Matthew 5:19 explicitly states that your position in the forthcoming kingdom is dependent upon your obedience to (and teaching of) the law.

It does not merely say "practice what you preach".

You wrote: "So only if you yourself keep the law perfectly are you qualified to teach others they should keep the law perfectly."

My response: Rather, Jesus and the apostles obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same. We should do likewise.

Did Paul say we should keep God's commands? (1 Cor. 7:19) Of course we should! John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).
God's commands are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

Did Paul obey God's commands perfectly without ever sinning? Of course not...

Nevertheless, Paul taught obedience to law, as I've shown. We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

You wrote: "So which is sin, breaking the law or teaching others to keep a law perfectly that you yourself don't keep perfectly?"

My response: Breaking the law is sin.

Teaching obedience to law (and obeying the law) qualifies one for greatness in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Surely you do not oppose the teachings of Jesus?

Right?

Not exactly Galatian 3:12

Christ Redeemed Us
All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The one who does these things will live by them.”…

 

[psychoslice]

Sin to me sin is your guilt, there is no such thing as sin, its nothing more than a trap for the ignorance, so don't get caught.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sin to me sin is your guilt, there is no such thing as sin, its nothing more than a trap for the ignorance, so don't get caught.

Sin is the transgression of the Law and, the decision to set things right with HaShem so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparation, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) That's as simple as that!

 

[psychoslice]

Sin is the transgression of the Law and, the decision to set things right with HaShem so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparation, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) That's as simple as that!

Thank you but that is not my interpretation of sin.

 

[Bible Guy]

Not exactly Galatian 3:12

Christ Redeemed Us
All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The one who does these things will live by them.”…

So do you accept or reject Jesus' teachings that we should obey God's law (Torah)?

 

[Kemosloby]

So do you accept or reject Jesus' teachings that we should obey God's law (Torah)?

Your not listening.