What is the best argument for an atheist?

[waitasec]

Reason isn't all that it is cut out to be either. It can give people a reason to do stupid things.

i think you are on to something here;
which definition of reason would you think would apply to your statement?

A. A thought or a consideration offered in support of a determination or an opinion; a just ground for a conclusion or an action; that which is offered or accepted as an explanation;

or

B. clear and fair deductions from true principles; that which is dictated or supported by the common sense of mankind; right conduct; right; propriety; justice.

imo, the first definition can be applied to both faith and reason
the second definition, however, i don't see how it can be applied to faith.

Faith is just believing when hope is lost that there might be something better to look forward too even when there isn't.

what is wrong with relying on reason when hope is lost?

 

[waitasec]

No regardless of whether she has faith. I could be getting it confused with fate though. My brain is kind of slow today... A lot slower than the average slow for some reason.

yeah, i was gonna say fate too..
no worries, i'm a bit rough today too

 

[ellenjanuary]

Nature selects. Like so - there is an inbalance in the environment due to excess religious nonsense, atheists pop up like mushrooms; bringing sense to nonsense, restoring the balance.

 

[waitasec]

Nature selects. Like so - there is an inbalance in the environment due to excess religious nonsense, atheists pop up like mushrooms; bringing sense to nonsense, restoring the balance.

gotta love those mushrooms :sarcastic

 

[Gloone]

i think you are on to something here;
which definition of reason would you think would apply to your statement?

A. A thought or a consideration offered in support of a determination or an opinion; a just ground for a conclusion or an action; that which is offered or accepted as an explanation;

or

B. clear and fair deductions from true principles; that which is dictated or supported by the common sense of mankind; right conduct; right; propriety; justice.

imo, the first definition can be applied to both faith and reason
the second definition, however, i don't see how it can be applied to faith.



what is wrong with relying on reason when hope is lost?

I will answer your first question when I jump start my brain, but for right now I will just say there is nothing wrong with reason or faith when hope isn't lost. Basically reason isn't always the best alternative just because someone lacks faith.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is a big difference between informed reasoning and rationalization through ignorance.

 

[Orias]

Give me a real life example of faith helping anyone do anything that reason couldn't.

Believing that you could overcome the Opposition.

It is not always foreknowledge that you could beat someone in a duel, it is keeping faith within your skill to be able to overcome such hostile tendencies.

However, reason also does apply to this situation, for one who mentally institues their combat, rather than imbedding it into muscle memory.

Faith may or may not be reasonable. Hence the subjectivity of the matter.

Its about whether you stick around to see the after show or leave to catch an early ride.

 

[Orias]

Nature selects. Like so - there is an inbalance in the environment due to excess religious nonsense, atheists pop up like mushrooms; bringing sense to nonsense, restoring the balance.

I could disagree with that.

Atheists tend to add more to the nonsense simply by denying propositions without consuming the fact that they exist for a reason.

 

[Gloone]

i think you are on to something here;
which definition of reason would you think would apply to your statement?

A. A thought or a consideration offered in support of a determination or an opinion; a just ground for a conclusion or an action; that which is offered or accepted as an explanation;

or

B. clear and fair deductions from true principles; that which is dictated or supported by the common sense of mankind; right conduct; right; propriety; justice.

Are you saying reason can't be apply to faith? I would say it is pointless having it if you don't. It is better to find reason in your faith than it is to just walk astray. I think that is really the only reason people have faith is because they want to know more about why they have it.

 

[waitasec]

Are you saying reason can't be apply to faith? I would say it is pointless having it if you don't. It is better to find reason in your faith than it is to just walk astray. I think that is really the only reason people have faith is because they want to know more about why they have it.

a reason for faith is not necessarily a reasonable reason
had you said, 'It is better to find the reason for your faith than it is to just walk astray.'
i would agree

i think the reason people have faith is because people have a desire for good to happen...

 

[Masourga]

No. Why did you expect it too?

A comment made within some mystical mind-frame, very cliché-esque. "Of course it doesn't make sense! It's beyond mortal reasoning!" That has always seemed to me a form of excuse. A reason as to why people of determined faith do not need to explain themselves.

At any rate, I would say that our natural instincts are, more often than not, in place within our physicality for good reason. Perhaps in this day and age, some of those instincts are out-dated - like the urge to eat to your fill, even though we know where our next meal is coming from, or initially choosing potential mates based on physical-appearances - but I would tend to say that the mechanisms that put us into a state of discomfort when things around us start to not make sense has definitely not out-lived its usefulness. Our human-amounts of intelligence make it far too easy for tricksters and charlatans to dream up elaborate schemes to pull the wool over others' eyes... and without the proper counter-intelligence and, indeed, instincts in such matters, many more of us would fall to gullibility. Which, judging from the number of faiths humanity sports (all with different rules and adherences), has already happened to a good number of people. They can't all be right, can they? Maybe one... but then everyone else is being lied to, aren't they?

 

[Orias]

A comment made within some mystical mind-frame, very cliché-esque. "Of course it doesn't make sense! It's beyond mortal reasoning!" That has always seemed to me a form of excuse. A reason as to why people of determined faith do not need to explain themselves.

At any rate, I would say that our natural instincts are, more often than not, in place within our physicality for good reason. Perhaps in this day and age, some of those instincts are out-dated - like the urge to eat to your fill, even though we know where our next meal is coming from, or initially choosing potential mates based on physical-appearances - but I would tend to say that the mechanisms that put us into a state of discomfort when things around us start to not make sense has definitely not out-lived its usefulness. Our human-amounts of intelligence make it far too easy for tricksters and charlatans to dream up elaborate schemes to pull the wool over others' eyes... and without the proper counter-intelligence and, indeed, instincts in such matters, many more of us would fall to gullibility. Which, judging from the number of faiths humanity sports (all with different rules and adherences), has already happened to a good number of people. They can't all be right, can they? Maybe one... but then everyone else is being lied to, aren't they?

Perhaps they could all be right.

They all express what we are.

 

[Gloone]

a reason for faith is not necessarily a reasonable reason
had you said, 'It is better to find the reason for your faith than it is to just walk astray.'
i would agree

i think the reason people have faith is because people have a desire for good to happen...

I agree and sometimes that desire can outlive its usefulness. Just like reasoning is pointless if it isn't rational.

 

[Orias]

I agree and sometimes that desire can outlive its usefulness. Just like reasoning is pointless if it isn't rational.

Then its not reasoning, just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[waitasec]

I agree and sometimes that desire can outlive its usefulness. Just like reasoning is pointless if it isn't rational.

so to bring this full circle and hopefully not take this into a discussion of semantics
would you then say the people that had faith in god to heal their sick children were being irrational?

 

[Orias]

so to bring this full circle and hopefully not take this into a discussion of semantics
would you then say the people that had faith in god to heal their sick children were being irrational?

That depends on their situation.

If they left it in the hands of "God" by not doing anything, then of course they were.

But if they had faith in God to heal their children and then went to the hospital, then their rationality has been evident.

Hence the subjective matter on the rationality of faith.

Since it can be taken in many different ways, both logical and logically illogical.

 

[waitasec]

That depends on their situation.

If they left it in the hands of "God" by not doing anything, then of course they were.

But if they had faith in God to heal their children and then went to the hospital, then their rationality has been evident.

Hence the subjective matter on the rationality of faith.

Since it can be taken in many different ways, both logical and logically illogical.

i was referring to your 1st example...
i had asked gloone this question awhile back and it led us astray, go figure

 

[Gloone]

i was referring to your 1st example...
i had asked gloone this question awhile back and it led us astray, go figure

I would say it depends on the situation. If it is something they have no control over do you think they should pray to god? I also thought Orias gave a good response. What was wrong with his answer?

 

[Orias]

i was referring to your 1st example...
i had asked gloone this question awhile back and it led us astray, go figure

Which example exactly? I believe I have a few on this thread.

And it is a very good question actually, good for making one think.

But due to the subjectivity of the matter, it cannot be truly rationalized, as it is inconsistant with the partaker. For one who views their actions may not acknowledge whether it is rational or not, they are just doing it.

There was a thread a while back called, The argument against (or for) God is never a logical one. And this kind of reminded me of the situation.

There is so many variables put into play, that to even consider faith to be one, rational or irrational, is blown completely out of proportion.

I mean obviously faith has some rationality behind its existence, otherwise no one would be faithful. Basically, people are faithful because it "works". Its a natural anomoly.

 

[waitasec]

I would say it depends on the situation. If it is something they have no control over do you think they should pray to god? I also thought Orias gave a good response. What was wrong with his answer?

nothing is wrong with his answer. in fact, i agree with the 2nd senario. if your child is sick and you do everything you can other then just relying on god to heal them that would be the reasonable thing to do. however, if they choose not to do the reasonable thing by not giving them the meds and rely only on their faith that god will heal them, is that not faith without through deeds is dead...? if you believe james 2:20....

and if it were a situation where there was no cure, hope is all you have, not faith. do you follow?

how many times do christians say, i don't know what to do so i'll pray about it...meaning i'll think about it, or lets see where the cards fall. in which case is more like saying, 'i hope i'll know what to do when the time comes' to commit or 'whatever happens happens' without giving it a cause.

Are you saying reason can't be apply to faith?

no it can't
not according to james 2:20

if i were to ask james, why did my children die if i had faith in god to heal them and i believed as though they would be healed?

he would say 'your faith is alive because you proved your faith by doing and believing as though god would heal them'

what is the reasoning behind faith...hope. imo