What is the best argument for an atheist?

[strikeviperMKII]

well that's not a good argument for faith...

It wasn't an argument for anything. It was saying what faith isn't.

that's not faith, that's humility

Humility is a part of faith, a big part, but that's not everything.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Then all you're suggesting is rolling a roulette wheel in the sense of "What belief do I want to examine today" and then examining it through reason.

That's not faith.

That's the same thing as someone walking up to you and saying "leprechauns" and then you examining leprechauns.

Except instead of someone walking up to you and saying "leprechauns" you just rolled a roulette wheel and it landed on "leprechauns."

Still not faith, it's just examining random things with reason.

So first you say that it is illogical to do what I am suggesting. Then you say it is logical, just random.
It is correct to a certain extent. If you don't know what to examine, you have to choose something. But this also applies to how you examine what you are examining.

 

[Meow Mix]

So first you say that it is illogical to do what I am suggesting. Then you say it is logical, just random.
It is correct to a certain extent. If you don't know what to examine, you have to choose something. But this also applies to how you examine what you are examining.

Yes, I thought you were saying you first randomly believe something (illogical) but it seems you've clarified to you first randomly CHOOSE something, then examine it (reason, just done... randomly).

I don't really think this fulfills any definiton of "faith."

 

[strikeviperMKII]

All of you with determined "faith" point to the unknowable as not being impossible, and that is true. However, if we cannot define ourselves by the things we see, feel, and generally experience during our lives in this universe (when this is most certainly all we can definitively know) then how would you suggest we define ourselves?

This question is a good example of 'ready, aim, fire'. It's a 'well, if you don't want me to hit that target, then which target do you want me to hit' question.
Just shoot. Guess. Be creative. The world will tell you if you are right (or wrong), but only after you shoot.

By some arbitrary guess as to the clock-work behind it all? Does that really make any sense whatsoever?

No. Why did you expect it too?

 

[Orias]

Then you don't have knowledge... you're saying that "faith is knowing that regardless of lines two and three," but KNOWLEDGE INCLUDES lines two and three, so faith doesn't "know" line one.

Faith is holding trust in something without any evidence of its existence.

I am sure you have already said this...but doesn't this also take a role in everything else as well?

 

[Meow Mix]

Faith is holding trust in something without any evidence of its existence.

I am sure you have already said this...but doesn't this also take a role in everything else as well?

No. I don't hold any beliefs without at least some justifying evidence. I even question things that I think are obvious and if I can't support them then I don't believe them, or I qualify them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which is this:

1. P is true
2. S believes that P is true, and
3. S is justified in believing that P is true

(where S is a person and P is a proposition)

I'd shorten that definition to the first line. That's all you need. Faith is knowing that regardless of lines two and three, line one will win out. It has to. If something is true, then no amount of thinking its not true will change it.

With only the first requirement, you don't have you in the equation. Knowledge is about what you believe. "P is true" is external to you. It only gains a relationship to you through requirement 2.

As for requirement 3, here's an illustrative example:

I believe that the next time I flip a coin, it will end up heads. I believe this because I think I have telekinetic powers, and can subtlely control the motion of a coin while it's in the air. I've never actually tested this power of mine, but I feel very deeply that it's real.

If the coin comes up heads, did I know it was going to come up heads?

In your formulation, yes. In the world outside your head, no.

 

[Orias]

No. I don't hold any beliefs without at least some justifying evidence. I even question things that I think are obvious and if I can't support them then I don't believe them, or I qualify them.

Of course, it is but a logical standoff. But to understand the "questioning" positions, you must understand the position of the question itself. Rather than seeking the evidence behind the reason, why not seek the motive behind its becoming?

Sure, some of these silly concepts may be completely "illogical", but there is meaning behind its existence, and as to why it is. Rather than trying to disprove an existence that is beyond us, why not provoke an existence within us?

"He who is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for the belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom."-Anton LaVey

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This question is a good example of 'ready, aim, fire'. It's a 'well, if you don't want me to hit that target, then which target do you want me to hit' question.
Just shoot. Guess. Be creative. The world will tell you if you are right (or wrong), but only after you shoot.

If you're talking about doing an action with unknown results to see what the effect will be, then that's fine - but then your knowledge comes from the observation after the fact, not from the belief you had beforehand.

If you start with "I think that if I do A, B will happen" and have no prior justification, then you don't know that this is true until you do A and see that B does indeed happen.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

With only the first requirement, you don't have you in the equation.

Exactly! That is what faith is about.

Knowledge is about what you believe. "P is true" is external to you. It only gains a relationship to you through requirement 2.

Agreed, but it doesn't tell you about condition 1 at all. P will be true(or false) no matter what you think about it.

As for requirement 3, here's an illustrative example:

I believe that the next time I flip a coin, it will end up heads. I believe this because I think I have telekinetic powers, and can subtlely control the motion of a coin while it's in the air. I've never actually tested this power of mine, but I feel very deeply that it's real.

If the coin comes up heads, did I know it was going to come up heads?

In your formulation, yes. In the world outside your head, no.

You are missing the point of this. Your head works like this, not like the world outside your head. So would it not be prudent to understand how your head works, because it is only through your head that you understand the world outside your head.

 

[Meow Mix]

You are missing the point of this. Your head works like this, not like the world outside your head. So would it not be prudent to understand how your head works, because it is only through your head that you understand the world outside your head.

I'm not sure you're following the ramifications of your own train of thought.

What use do you suppose your definition of "faith" to be? What does it accomplish?

 

[Willamena]

I'm not sure you're following the ramifications of your own train of thought.

What use do you suppose your definition of "faith" to be? What does it accomplish?

To which ramifications do you refer?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I'm not sure you're following the ramifications of your own train of thought.

What use do you suppose your definition of "faith" to be? What does it accomplish?

As I have said before, possibly on another thread, faith teaches you to put yourself in the 'creation' position. It tells you to let go of control.

What that accomplishes is a question a creator would ask, not a creation.

 

[Meow Mix]

As I have said before, possibly on another thread, faith teaches you to put yourself in the 'creation' position. It tells you to let go of control.

What that accomplishes is a question a creator would ask, not a creation.

Give me a real life example of faith helping anyone do anything that reason couldn't.

 

[Gloone]

Give me a real life example of faith helping anyone do anything that reason couldn't.

Saving some old lady from walking out into the street and getting slammed by a bus.

 

[outhouse]

Saving some old lady from walking out into the street and getting slammed by a bus.

not good enough, that is a good deed not faith

 

[Gloone]

not good enough, that is a good deed not faith

Good deed for me, but it was the faith of that lady.

 

[Gloone]

Reason isn't all that it is cut out to be either. It can give people a reason to do stupid things. Faith is just believing when hope is lost that there might be something better to look forward too even when there isn't.

 

[waitasec]

Good deed for me, but it was the faith of that lady.

you're saying her faith saved her? how so?
:scratches head:

 

[Gloone]

you're saying her faith saved her? how so?
:scratches head:

No regardless of whether she has faith.
Edit: No that is not what i said.