What is the best argument for an atheist?

[Meow Mix]

My last oost seems to anserwer demands since it explains god as a creator and not a collection of qualities. How do I know this? Idefine what God is and and deduce from that definition what god did to create.My source of knowledge comes from induction and deductions in usscience and observation.In my reasoning, I keep the most basic premises of my logic the same.

So, as I said, you're just defining your argument into existence. That isn't a justification.

By the same fiat I could say that science and logic are actually proof of the existence of slithey toves, depending on how I define slithey toves into existence.

 

[Orias]

So, as I said, you're just defining your argument into existence. That isn't a justification.

By the same fiat I could say that science and logic are actually proof of the existence of slithey toves, depending on how I define slithey toves into existence.

I think what he meant was, because of the definition of his defense, he is able to produce a greater and more logical argument from its leaves.

(Much like our debate about Opposition, you build off a foundation.)

There is a subjective definition behind it, making it able to be subjected to any argument.

But I agree with you (mostly), defining "God" is producing qualities and characteristics (which contradicts his first sentence).

I don't believe his answer really justified his meaning, since any characterized aspect of "Gods" creations, must mean that these creations were characterized by God, which means God is a collection of qualities.

 

[Gloone]

Do not assume that most atheists were never Christians. Most of us were. You are not educating people ignorant of Christianity on what Christians believe. And I think it fair to say that other Christians are as aware of their philosophy as you are of yours.

Where I think you go wrong in most of your last post is in your apparent reliance on the assumption that "mind-stuff" can exist independently of a physical brain. Human "mind-stuff", it appears, cannot.

I would like to know what made you consider yourself to be a christian before being an atheist. Was it because you simply no longer felt like subscribing to the brand or what.

 

[Gloone]

So yes the bible does do good in the world.
But still more bad than good in my oppinion

so here is my question: do you think the world would be better with or without a bible?

I think people can do a lot of good with or without religion. I think religion is only there for people that would like for it to be.

 

[Copernicus]

I would like to know what made you consider yourself to be a christian before being an atheist. Was it because you simply no longer felt like subscribing to the brand or what.

I attended an Episcopalian church and Sunday School throughout my childhood, was an altar boy, and was confirmed to take communion as a young adolescent. I ultimately came to realize that my childhood beliefs had been misguided, after a great deal of thought and study. I grew up.

 

[atanu]

Atheists don't believe theists, no argument there.

This is a Zenzero point -- rarely comprehended.

...

 

[atanu]

How can you prove that.... I think faith requires a lot of empirical evidence but it is only viewed by the observer, not so much anyone else.

ya. Taste of an apple cannot be explained to one who has not tasted it.

And I think that the above is not irrational.

 

[atanu]

no, subjective evidence is just what you believe yourself. empirical or objective evidence is what you can SHOW to others to prove to them your evidence is true.

Got me thinking. Empirical evidence is seen by you. And 'others' are seen by you. Is any observation truly objective? Has some one or some thing played a fundamental trick on us?
...

 

[atanu]

That would not prove that the mind continued to exist after the brain had died, and there is plenty of reason to believe that all mental functions are dependent on healthy brain activity.

Hi Copernicus

That is, IMO, very thin logic for stating that intelligence (ungraspable) is emergent property of matter (graspable) -- which I have been hearing recently.

That "all mental functions are dependent on healthy brain activity", is readily apparent and probably no science is required for that. For what else a brain would come into existence for? What for legs are there, if not for walking? But ability to walk and the intention to walk are not exactly same and may not belong to same entity. You may intend to go to a place and use a car. Similarly, mental activity and the intelligence are not same. What I mean is that these organs are instruments. It is not necessary that the user of the organ 'leg' is leg. It is not necessary that user of material brain is brain. The user of the body may not be the body. Can we ever imagine that?

What may not be easily apparent, however, is that a some sort of body -- a body of bone and flesh (as in waking time) or a body made of light (as in dreaming time),is required for mental talk, and all consequent beautiful or ugly creations, and enjoyments -- at least in dream (and actually also in waking). In deep sleep, the body gone -- talk stops. One cannot grow wheat in thin air.

Just wanted to plant a few seeds of skepticism. These are some reasoned opinions only.
...

 

[atanu]

this only applies to a subjective situation.

realistically, yes atheistis do need arguments, hence the debate between the two. If atheists didn't need an argument then theism would not be necessary for discussion.

lets get real here. The best argument is this...there is none. Both sides argue from ignorance, even if one side logically choses not to see his/her argument as being ignorant, it still is. Because face it...no one knows.

...

 

[bhaktajan]

"The God is a Person Principle"​

(or "Why mayavadi's can't deny a that there is a always a personality behind the scene")

​

Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. George Washington.

Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. Barack Obama.

Q. Who is the personification of the State of New York'?
A. The Governor (Mr. Paterson).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of New York State?
A. The County Executive.

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of New York State?
A. The Congressman/State Representative.

Q. Who is the personification of New York City?
A. The Mayor (Mr. Blumberg).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of New York City?
A. The Concilman/Ombudsman.

Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and Lot' tax-parcel of land?
A. The title barer (The Land owner).

Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?
A. "The Landlord".

Q. Who is the personification of any apartment Flat?
A. The tenant.

Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?
A. One of the male children.

Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?
A. The Baby.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The point of my illustration is: "Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"

esoteric satire:
Q. Who is the personification of a mayavadi?
A. His temporary illusion? A Vaisnava to argue with?

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The most important thing for the future well-being of humankind is:
Halting all slaughter of animals for:
a] consumption and
b] for seduction and
c] for sub-conscious self-loathing sadism
d] for the taste of beast blood/sweat/tears

In contrast we must Halt all slaughter of animals so as to become aloof & non-involved in sub-human pastimes. Stop conflating of Human Life and human strife with the pastimes/Lives of sub-human beasts.

If, in the future, our grand-children are "treated like animals" ---know now that this destiny was cultivated by earlier generations in preparation of future generations ---such was done in pursuit of 'enjoyment' at the expense of later suffering "like animals". This is 'ugra-Karma'.

We are spirits in the material world --but the 20th Century was filled with Farm Animal Eaters, as the historic record shows, chronologically followed by extreme austerity ---all done by & done to so-called innocents.

There is no such thing as coincidental 'ugra-Karma'.

"no pain, no gain."
"Enjoy now pay later".

Ignorance is bliss?

……………………………………………………
We are biological animals ["anima" is the Latin word for "soul"].

World peace will come via poetic musings of well read people? Is that everyone’s ideal?

"Turn your swords to plowshares" = "Stop warring by growing sublime"
.................................................. .....

Why do people look past the obvious blood/sweat/bones and grotesqueness?????

A diet of meat-stuffs [cooked or un-cooked/cured or processed or thickened or from rejects like retarded/vaccinated/lame/old farm stock] ---all adds to hardened-Hearts extraordinaire . . . along with the onset of mass-popular sickness, ie:

Acidity interior body chemistry, IOW, de-nuded foodstuffs eaten as substitutes for one's vital organ fuel, like: Vitamins & Minerals. Ergo, NO Immunity from mycotoxins that will proliferate in one's body's acidic state, caused by eating {esp meat(s)} modern day mafia food. Everybody wants to be a Tony Soprano or at least a dictator of their own homeland ---yet we are pawns.

The holiday gatherings to "show the love" ---is awash in future Bad (funky) Karma.
This was the Future karma that laid ahead for "the greatest Generation".

It's so nice & poignant to wax sweet dreams, isn't it?

The holiday gatherings to "show the love" ---are society's "Elephants' Bath" . . . an Elephant bathes by immersing it's self into a lake or pond . . . and then, walks ashore and covers itself with mud.
thus,
The holiday gatherings to "show the love" is similar to "The frog in the water well" . . . a frog thinks that the whole world is his water well, and that's all there is to the world, this frog is indeed content with the status quo.

Similar to compassionate Mother Teresa types:
When a human achieves SUPREME SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT . . . one sees all his friends neighbors and sub=human creatures and politicians and daily world events & headlines and The beautiful people too as:

"enjoying and suffering" while causing further "enjoying and suffering" repeatedly ---haplessly without any attempt to change the status quo.

Objective & absolute reality tells one when there is a problem; otherwise the status quo is what Sargent Schultz says: "I know nothing, I see nothing, I say nothing".

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{>O<}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}​

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference (Elie Wiesel).

 

[waitasec]

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference (Elie Wiesel).[/FONT][/COLOR]

indifference is;
impartiality; freedom from prejudice, free from preconceived opinion, unbiased.


so lets really think about this now. according to you the opposite of love is indifference.
so if god is love, his love is biased, bound by prejudice and partial.
hmmmm

indifference was an interesting choice as what would oppose art.
clearly your a fan of thomas kinkade...
again you believe art should be bound by prejudice....

faith was an interesting choice as well...faith is to have a preconceived opinion
that makes perfect sense

and i would also agree with your idea of the opposite of life
to be impartial; free from prejudice, free forom prepossession, unbiased.
bring it on. makes perfect sense

 

[Meow Mix]

What was the point of all that...? I was reading it all the way down until I noticed it was sort of drifting in and out of topics and never really addressed anything coherently.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What was the point of all that...? I was reading it all the way down until I noticed it was sort of drifting in and out of topics and never really addressed anything coherently.

You do realize this is RF, right?

 

[bhaktajan]

What was the point of all that...? I was reading it all the way down until I noticed it was sort of drifting in and out of topics and never really addressed anything coherently.

Maybe it was plan to attract you and start up a chat!

My post above were indeed a compilation of multiple postings that shared a common theme ---that I tried to fit in here in "a nut-shell" that obiviously is burtsing at the seams.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Can ANYONE recognise the way to the gates of this city, can ANYONE locate them on this aerial photograph ---can you locate how to get out of this walled city?

Can you identify this location??????

Why can't you identify this location??????

PLEASE SOMEONE IDENTIFY THIS LOCATION PLEASE!!!!
PLEASE SOMEONE IDENTIFY THIS LOCATION PLEASE
PLEASE SOMEONE IDENTIFY THIS LOCATION PLEASE

::::::::::::::::::::::::
BTW, If you "give-up" . . . just ask me to tell you.

Why can't you identify this location??????

It is indeed a trick question!!!!!

 

[Meow Mix]

Looks like a brain stem to me, or vertebrae.

 

[PolyHedral]

The filename says it's a road network, I think.

 

[Gloone]

WHAT EVERY ATHIEST (ie: high-minded deep thinkers) MUST REMEMBER IS:
A 100 year life span is reduced [8hrs sleep of each 24hr day (1/3rd)] to
66 years of waking-time, of the 66 years of waking-time:
16.5 years [1/2 of 16hr waking-day] is weekly work time;
The remaning 16.5 years are free-time that includes utilitarian things like:
cummuting to work, eating & hygeine & shopping & approx 12-16 years of formal school-study-homework.

Ergo, a person of 50 years of age would have had 8 1/4 Years of "Free-Time".

Re-cap:
100 yr life span =
16.5 years of "Free-Time" +
16.5 years of "weekly work time" +
33 years of "sleep time" +
33 years of "gainful employment".

This does not add up to 100 years or the 2/3 lifespan of a 100 years that a person may live. You added in 33 years of sleep time and left something out.
That picture you posted doesn't look a location of anything. It looks like some muscle, tissue, organs, nerves, etc. Give the answer to what it is please, I don't think anyone will be able to guess.

 

[bhaktajan]

A] It adds up to 99 years --- +1 year for culmulative time spent filling out tax forms.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

B] The picture is indeed the Adominal Cavity of the Human Body ---it is the machine in which are conscious (soul) being resides and animates . . . but we [Intelligent Human-Beings] are
not qualified nor wise enough nor mystically expert enough to fiddle around with this complex inner mechanisms because of our limited scope of influence & controll & knowledge of such important things, that nonetheless, we are the stewards of.

"THE CITY OF NINE GATES"​

Quoted from the perennial source of theoretical and practical spirituality and positive work culture, found in the Holy Bhagvad Gita.

Sarvakarmani manasa Samnyasyaste sukham vashi
Navadvare pure dehi naiva kurvan no karayan.
The embodied (Soul) who has controlled his nature having renounced all actions by the mind dwells at ease in the City of Nine Gates, neither working nor causing work to be done.
- Bhagvad Gita 5: 13
THE PROCESS OF LIVING​

The City of Nine Gates is a description of the human body with its nine opening or gates. They are the two eyes, the two ears, the two nostrils, the mouth, the urinary opening and the anus. These are the functional basis and functional descriptions of the human body or kingdom or City. Mind, intellect and ego live here and carry out their activities. Also many anatomical and physiological systems perform their tasks of survival and the very process of actions and reactions. But the soul is the King or Ruler of this City of Nine Gates. The Soul perceives this infinite aspect of creation through these above-mentioned instruments or agents. It controls this complex system through the brain and spinal cord. The Soul, by the process of breathing holds these complex structures together, the nature&#8217;s play, acts and reacts. This is known as the process of living. The Soul sets in motion these complex mechanisms and sits back, invisible formless, watching as a witness- nature&#8217;s play (maya) in the City of Nine Gates. So it is nature (Mother Nature) who is the Real Doer. But we wrongly identify ourselves with body, mind, intellect and ego, and get delusion, illusion, error and sins. This produces stress, strain, anxiety, worry and fear to the egoistic individual. This is the cause of our suffering.
WRONG SELF IDENTIFICATION
Instead of identifying ourselves with our Higher Self or Soul (Witness) we wrongly identify ourselves with ego and forget our Soul, and hence undergo many sufferings. We cannot enjoy life and God&#8217;s play that is constantly going on within and around us.
City of nine gates

Also,

The "City of Nine Gates" is elborated on within the verses of the BHAGAVATA PURANA of India:

In chapters 25-29 of Canto Four in the BHAGAVATA PURANA, a Sanskrit text from India, one finds the elaborate allegory of the City of Nine Gates.

The account of the City of Nine Gates is specifically identified as allegorical in BHAGAVATA PURANA itself. It was spoken by the sage Narada Muni, who was questioned by King Prachinabarhishat about the nature of the self, and Narada Muni himself explains all the elements of the allegory in the original text.

I have extracted only the principal elements of the City of Nine Gates allegory. The complete account is much more detailed and allows one to make an even more subtle and refined model of self/mind/body interaction. This model does not fit easily into present categories of the mind/body debate. Although dualist, it partakes also of idealism and monism. It does, however, allow one to integrate many categories of evidence from normal and paranormal science, as well as evidence from humanity&#8217;s wisdom traditions, into a rich synthesis, providing fruitful lines of research confirming and refining a complex dualist model of mind/body interaction.
The City of Nine Gates | Krishna.com

So, a story of a spirit soul, conditioned in the material nature, is being described through this chapter. Narada Muni took pity upon King Pracinabarhicat especially because his sons, the Pracetas were so absorbed in Krsna consciousness.

Actually King Pracinabarhi was very much absorbed in sense gratification, in a vedic way, he was not recklessly trying to enjoy his senses as people do nowadays in this material nature. The way to gratify ones senses has been also prescribed in the vedas through the karma kanda section . In the karma kanda section, it has been described, how one can acquire piety, and as a result of his piety, he can enjoy in this material nature. Enjoying the material nature means he can fulfill his desires. The real concept of enjoyment is fulfillment of desire. When our desires are fulfilled, we are happy and when our desires are not fulfilled , then we become unhappy and morose. So the Vedas are actually giving the indication or direction how to enjoy, how to fullfill one&#8217;s desire. And the vedic way of fulfilling desire is by acquiring piety. Piety is something like subtle wealth.

Transcription Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4, Ch.25, T.4 &#8211; Iskcon Juhu, Mumbai, 15 October 2010. | H.H. Bhakti Charu Swami

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Man...we just seem to let anyone in here now....