What is the difference between the jiva and the atma?

[Terese]

Pranam everyone

I sometimes get confused about this topic, the difference between the jiva and the atma. I have read that the jiva is the subtle body, the mind and the senses, does the atma live within the jiva? And are there other subtle layers of the body? Can the jiva be destroyed? I am reading Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Prameya Ratnavali, and soon his other works, and wanted insight from other people here Hopefully this time i'll be able to fully understand the answers

Thank you for reading

 

[Aupmanyav]

The difference or non-difference will depend on the belief of the person. For me, there is none. For those who follow Sri Madhvacharya, the difference is substantial. Sri Madhvacharya also believed that some 'atmas' who were beyond redemption will eventually be destroyed (I am not well-versed with his philosophy). With others, Sri Ramanujacharya, Sri Nimbarkacharya, Sri Vallabhacharya and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, in spite of being the same, there were shades of conditions. Read about the sheeths of 'atma' here (if you must ): Kosha - Wikipedia - or just pay attention to the worship of the 'dark charmer'. As Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, it is 'achintya'. Human intellect cannot envision that.

 

[Terese]

The difference or non-difference will depend on the belief of the person. For me, there is none. For those who follow Sri Madhvcharya, the difference is substantial. Sri Madhvacharya also believed that some 'atmas' who were beyond redemption will eventually be destroyed (I am not well-versed with his philosophy). With others, Sri Ramanujacharya, Sri Nimbarkacharya, Sri Vallabhacharya and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, in spite of being the same, there were shades of conditions. Read about the sheeths of 'atma' here (if you must ): Kosha - Wikipedia - or just pay attention to the worship of the 'dark charmer'. As Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, it is 'achintya'. Human intellect cannot envision that.

Thanks Aup!

 

[निताइ dasa]

Jaya Nitai!

Jiva refers to atma (the spiritual soul, being part and parcel of Krsna) in association with the upadhis (i.e the subtle body, mind, false ego, physical body etc).

There are two types of jivas, eternally conditioned (i.e atmas with material upadhis), and eternally liberated (or liberated by sadhana) (i.e atmas with spiritual upadhis).

In either case, the Jiva cannot be destroyed, because it involves the Atma, which is eternal. Srila Prabhupada translated jiva to mean "living entity' and in common usage it means the same as atma. That's why some people just combine them together to get the term jivatma.

And are there other subtle layers of the body

We have a subtle body that involves the mind, false ego and intelligence. I'm not sure if the physical body itself has subtle components.

 

[Terese]

Jaya Nitai!

Jiva refers to atma (the spiritual soul, being part and parcel of Krsna) in association with the upadhis (i.e the subtle body, mind, false ego, physical body etc).

There are two types of jivas, eternally conditioned (i.e atmas with material upadhis), and eternally liberated (or liberated by sadhana) (i.e atmas with spiritual upadhis).

In either case, the Jiva cannot be destroyed, because it involves the Atma, which is eternal. Srila Prabhupada translated jiva to mean "living entity' and in common usage it means the same as atma. That's why some people just combine them together to get the term jivatma.




We have a subtle body that involves the mind, false ego and intelligence. I'm not sure if the physical body itself has subtle components.

Thanks Nitai-Das! Are jivatmas in the material world eternally conditioned jivas?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Are jivatmas in the material world eternally conditioned jivas?

In the material world, generally yes, the Jivas there have been conditioned from even before time was manifest (hence why they are called eternally conditioned.The designation doesn't mean they will always be conditioned ).

There are however certain Jivas in this world that either become liberated by spiritual practice (sadhana-siddhas), or they come down from Goloka as the Lord's Associates (nitya siddhas) (from example, for Gaudiyas, all the associates of Lords Nitaai Gaura were eternally liberated souls who descended into this world). Of course because the Vaishnavs are super humble, no-one will reveal whether they actually are liberated.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Welcome back, Nitai brother.

 

[ajay0]

From the advaitan perspective, the subtle body, mind, body and senses are outer coatings on the Atman or pure consciousness or Self.

The ‘I’-thought, which is the first thought to emerge from the state of pure consciousness, tends to identify with the mind, body and senses . This identified mind-body entity is called the jivatma.
This mistaken identification is due to the extrovert character of the mind, which focuses more on the external world and sense-objects , along with the relationship of the mind-body complex to them.

As per Krishna, through practice of meditation and dispassion, one is able to revert back to identification with the Self or pure consciousness/Awareness rather than the mind-body complex. This also leads to mastery over the mind and its vacillating nature due to its likes and dislikes.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Jaya Nitai!

Jiva refers to atma (the spiritual soul, being part and parcel of Krsna) in association with the upadhis (i.e the subtle body, mind, false ego, physical body etc).

There are two types of jivas, eternally conditioned (i.e atmas with material upadhis), and eternally liberated (or liberated by sadhana) (i.e atmas with spiritual upadhis).

In either case, the Jiva cannot be destroyed, because it involves the Atma, which is eternal. Srila Prabhupada translated jiva to mean "living entity' and in common usage it means the same as atma. That's why some people just combine them together to get the term jivatma.




We have a subtle body that involves the mind, false ego and intelligence. I'm not sure if the physical body itself has subtle components.

Nitaidas, can you explain something to me? Are the eternally conditioned able to break free of that conditioning through love of God or is it impossible and they must always return again and against?

 

[atanu]

Atman is like gold in many kinds of jewellery: bangles, chains, rings etc. Shapes and designs of these vary but the essence is the same. The inherent nature of this essence called atman is the existence that is consciousness itself. The I am sense is it’s manifestation.

Upanishads teach that atman is Brahman.
...,,.

However, provisionally a body-mind is also considered atman (self). But in nirvikalpa samadhi, or though Neti-Neti, or through enquiry on the nature of I sense, the secondary attributes can be separated from the attributeless essence, which is atman and which is non different from non dual Brahman.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are the eternally conditioned able to break free of that conditioning through love of God or is it impossible and they must always return again and again

Love of God is the remedy for all ills. Even the conditioned get free. Think of Valmiki or Dundubhi..

 

[निताइ dasa]

Nitaidas, can you explain something to me? Are the eternally conditioned able to break free of that conditioning through love of God or is it impossible and they must always return again and against?

Yes, that is the purpose of life and sadhana, to escape the conditioned life and rekindle relationship with God, By God's Grace they enter into the divine pastimes, which are spiritually blissful, and thus they never desire to return to this world again. It is also a reason why there is suffering in this world, so we realise that our true home is not in this world.

One can fall from even Sayujya Mukti, but one cannot lose Love for God when attained.

This is actually a debate I had with someone a while ago on this forum. He claimed, that according to Madhavacharya, there is a class of souls who are eternally damned, and thus condemned to be in this material world forever. But I argued that all nitya baddha jivas are slowly in the progress of becoming siddhas.

 

[Terese]

Yes, that is the purpose of life and sadhana, to escape the conditioned life and rekindle relationship with God, By God's Grace they enter into the divine pastimes, which are spiritually blissful, and thus they never desire to return to this world again. It is also a reason why there is suffering in this world, so we realise that our true home is not in this world.

One can fall from even Sayujya Mukti, but one cannot lose Love for God when attained.

This is actually a debate I had with someone a while ago on this forum. He claimed, that according to Madhavacharya, there is a class of souls who are eternally damned, and thus condemned to be in this material world forever. But I argued that all nitya baddha jivas are slowly in the progress of becoming siddhas.

Your posts always foster Krsna bhakti, Nitai das

 

[Stormcry]

There are two types of jivas, eternally conditioned (i.e atmas with material upadhis), and eternally liberated (or liberated by sadhana) (i.e atmas with spiritual upadhis)

I don't know who are these "eternally" liberated souls and where they live.

 

[Stormcry]

When supreme Brahman thinks itself other than what it is, it is called as "Jiva".

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Na me dveşarāgau na me lobhamohau, mado naiva me naiva mātsaryabhāvaḥ;
na dharmo na cārtho na kāmo na mokşaḥ, cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham."

(I have no hatred or dislike, nor affiliation or liking, nor greed, nor delusion, nor pride or haughtiness, nor feelings of envy or jealousy. I have no duty (dharma), nor any money, nor any desire (kāma), nor even liberation (mokṣa). The form of eternal bliss, I am Siva, I am indeed Siva, the auspicious.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Atma Shatkam - Wikipedia, also known as Nirvana Shatakam (Six verses to knowledge and liberation by Adi Sankaracharya)

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Namaste,

I sometimes get confused about this topic, the difference between the jiva and the atma.

I think the difficulty is usually because of the approach. 'How' one obtains jñāna is important. Broadly, this can be thru' pratyakṣa (~ direct/immediate perception), anumāna (~ inference), and/or śabda (~ testimony). For those who accept the authoritativeness of śruti-s and smṛti-s as śabda pramāṇa esp. on topics that are beyond the grasp of pratyakṣa, all of them without exception disclose the nature, characteristics, and svarūpa-bhéda (~ inalienable bases for difference) b/w jīva and ātmā. One must also understand that the terms jīva and ātmā in the primary connotation convey the supreme brahman. Being a dependent principle, jīva-s too are referred to as such*.
Ex. of śruti positing two eternal entities? dvā suparṇa …
Ex. of śruti positing multiple dependent conscious beings? cetanaścetanānāṃ …

For instances on anumāna w.r.t. this one can refer the brahmasūtra each of which uphold difference for ex., ōṃ athāto brahmajijñāsā (~ since the sūtra declares the jīva as the knower (~ seeker) and brahman as the known, bheda (~ difference) is established. ōṃ ānandamayo§bhyāsāt (~ here even śrī saṅkara establishes that it is only the paramātmā who is ānandamaya and not the jīva), similarly ōm netaro§nupapattéḥ, ōṃ bhédavyapadéśācca, and so on …

In terms of pratyakṣa, no one can claim to be beyond the experience of mundane pain and pleasure, to which brahman is never subjected, hence difference is obvious.

Some of the bases for eternal difference b/w ātmā and jīva include (among the infinite):
svatantra ‡ a-svatantra
vibhu ‡ aṇu
biṁba ‡ pratibiṁba
nityānanda ‡ duḥkhaspṛṣṭa etc

Some similarities include:
ātmāsvarūpa: brahman is the inner controller of all that is, hence referred to as ekamévādvitīya. Jīva as a dependent being derives one's control over svarūpendriyas.
sacchidānandasvarūpa: jīva-s derive their sacchidānanda-svarūpa being dependent on brahman.

Can the jiva be destroyed?

nityatva: both (among others) are eternal principles.

I have read that the jiva is the subtle body, the mind and the senses, does the atma live within the jiva?

And are there other subtle layers of the body?

Subtle body you are referring to is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is not eternal. The svarūpa-déha of jiva-s are enveloped by three beginning-less bodies viz., liṅga-déha (~ causal body) made up of three guṇa-s, kāma (~ desires), and karmabīja (~ seeds of karma), sūkṣma-śarīra (~ subtle body) made up of sūkṣma-indriya-s, vāsanā-s, and sancitādi-karma lépa, and finally the sthūla-déha (~ gross body).

The ātmā dwells within the jīva (aṇoraṇīyaḥ) as the antaryāmin. He also dwells as the antaryāmin in each of the three dehas as well as inner controller and adhiṣṭhāna of the entire viśva in the viśvarūpa (mahatomahīyaḥ).

*Since saṁskṛtaṃ is essentially an etymological language and functions as such without exception, especially in śāstra-grantha-s it would be naïve to understand them in any other way.

श्रीमध्वेशकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Terese]

Namaste,


I think the difficulty is usually because of the approach. 'How' one obtains jñāna is important. Broadly, this can be thru' pratyakṣa (~ direct/immediate perception), anumāna (~ inference), and/or śabda (~ testimony). For those who accept the authoritativeness of śruti-s and smṛti-s as śabda pramāṇa esp. on topics that are beyond the grasp of pratyakṣa, all of them without exception disclose the nature, characteristics, and svarūpa-bhéda (~ inalienable bases for difference) b/w jīva and ātmā. One must also understand that the terms jīva and ātmā in the primary connotation convey the supreme brahman. Being a dependent principle, jīva-s too are referred to as such*.
Ex. of śruti positing two eternal entities? dvā suparṇa …
Ex. of śruti positing multiple dependent conscious beings? cetanaścetanānāṃ …

For instances on anumāna w.r.t. this one can refer the brahmasūtra each of which uphold difference for ex., ōṃ athāto brahmajijñāsā (~ since the sūtra declares the jīva as the knower (~ seeker) and brahman as the known, bheda (~ difference) is established. ōṃ ānandamayo§bhyāsāt (~ here even śrī saṅkara establishes that it is only the paramātmā who is ānandamaya and not the jīva), similarly ōm netaro§nupapattéḥ, ōṃ bhédavyapadéśācca, and so on …

In terms of pratyakṣa, no one can claim to be beyond the experience of mundane pain and pleasure, to which brahman is never subjected, hence difference is obvious.

Some of the bases for eternal difference b/w ātmā and jīva include (among the infinite):
svatantra ‡ a-svatantra
vibhu ‡ aṇu
biṁba ‡ pratibiṁba
nityānanda ‡ duḥkhaspṛṣṭa etc

Some similarities include:
ātmāsvarūpa: brahman is the inner controller of all that is, hence referred to as ekamévādvitīya. Jīva as a dependent being derives one's control over svarūpendriyas.
sacchidānandasvarūpa: jīva-s derive their sacchidānanda-svarūpa being dependent on brahman.

nityatva: both (among others) are eternal principles.



Subtle body you are referring to is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is not eternal. The svarūpa-déha of jiva-s are enveloped by three beginning-less bodies viz., liṅga-déha (~ causal body) made up of three guṇa-s, kāma (~ desires), and karmabīja (~ seeds of karma), sūkṣma-śarīra (~ subtle body) made up of sūkṣma-indriya-s, vāsanā-s, and sancitādi-karma lépa, and finally the sthūla-déha (~ gross body).

The ātmā dwells within the jīva (aṇoraṇīyaḥ) as the antaryāmin. He also dwells as the antaryāmin in each of the three dehas as well as inner controller and adhiṣṭhāna of the entire viśva in the viśvarūpa (mahatomahīyaḥ).

*Since saṁskṛtaṃ is essentially an etymological language and functions as such without exception, especially in śāstra-grantha-s it would be naïve to understand them in any other way.

श्रीमध्वेशकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

Thank you very much for your answer. If i may go further, what is the difference between the ego and the jiva? Is the ego one of these beginningless bodies? (Causal body, subtle body, gross body).

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

what is the difference between the ego and the jiva?

Assuming you are using the term ego as in "self-consciousness" as opposed to pride.
The term ahaṃ (~ ego) is derived etymologically as ahéyatvāt ahaṁ nāmā - thus, (approx. translation) that which cannot be 'discarded' by any 'being' or 'thing'. The svarūpa-déha of the jīva itself has innate potencies that illumine the (being dependent on brahman) three material bodies. That is to say, the functioning of the material mind is owing to the innate potency of the jīva, with each material body only conditioning it and/or contracting its capability. The innate potency of the jīva itself is derived from the potency of brahman, the two being co-eternal. The mind is a composite of manas, buddhi, citta, cétana, and ahaṅkāra. Thus, ahaṁ is the potency of the jīva to be conscious of itself, its existence, time, space and its dependence on brahman in the svarūpa-déha. The conditioned jīva in the liṅga-śarīra has a misplaced sense of identity with the material bodies owing to svarūpācchādika māyā (or gross tamas) and assumes kartṛtva (~ doer-ship) and bhoktṛtva (~ enjoyer) with a misplaced sense of independence.

Is the ego one of these beginningless bodies? (Causal body, subtle body, gross body).

Thus taken in its purest form, it is the inalienable cognisance or consciousness of being. In its gross form it is the misplaced sense of identity with mind, thoughts, experiences, body, possessions, etc.
Just to illustrate, it can be considered to devolve thus:

Brahman
(ultimate ahaṁ - that without which nothing can exist, always knows itself as such ref: bṛhad-upan.)
⬇︎
Jīva - svarūpa déha
(dependent self - knowing brahman as ultimate ahaṁ achieves perfection)
⬇︎
Ahaṅkāra tattva
- influences the liṅga, sūkṣma, and sthūla śarīra-s
(principle of jaḍa prakṛti that induces sense of identity with material bodies in the jīva)
Ref: śrīmadbhagavadgītā अ-8 श्लो-4-7
⬇︎
Ahaṅkāra
- conditioning in the sūkṣma (mind) and sthūla (my body)
(resultant ego, pride, sense of independent kartṛtva and bhoktṛtva, "ahaṁ" ie., self-importance, and "mamakāra" ie., possessiveness, and attachment etc).​

अहङ्कारतत्त्वनियामकरुद्रान्तर्गतमध्वेशकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।