What is the evidence of God’s Love?

[Trailblazer]

Christians claim that God is Love and Baha’is claim that God is All-Loving, but where is the evidence?

Christians say that the evidence of God’s Love is that God sent Jesus, His only Son, to die for our sins.

Baha’is say God is All-Loving because God sends Messengers and because Baha’u’llah wrote that God is All-Loving.

Anyone can ‘believe’ that God is Love, and maybe those two things above demonstrate God’s Love, but what does God actually do on a regular basis to demonstrate His Love? In my opinion, if God is All-Loving, we should be able to see evidence of that, not only Scriptures that say that God is Love or that God is All-Loving, or Messengers that God sends every 500-1000 years or so.

Nobody can prove that God is Love or that God is All-Loving. I have concluded that what it boils down to is what people are willing to believe. Not only that, I think it is about what people want to believe. People want to believe that God is Love or that God is All-Loving, and I think that is the primary reason they believe that.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The reason I thought to post this is because I have come to the conclusion that Love is very important, and in fact it is the chief reason why people are happy. I came to realize this by watching a TV show called The Waltons. In that show there is a family of seven children, a mother and a father, and a grandmother and grandfather, all living together in the same big house in rural Virginia. The story takes place during the Great Depression, World War II, and the post-war era. What is so striking about this family is how much love they have for each other and how they demonstrate it. The parents love each other romantically even after having been married for 25 years, the parents love all the children, and all the siblings love each other even though they fight. I can only dream about such a family, since my family was not loving at all.

I think that the reason this family is so happy is because of the love they have for each other. I know what brings happiness to me, feeling and expressing love for other people and animals. People are expressing love for each other all the time but how is God expressing love towards people?

 

[1213]

...but what does God actually do on a regular basis to demonstrate His Love?...

By what the Bible tells, one demonstration of God love is sun and rain:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

 

[joelr]

By what the Bible tells, one demonstration of God love is sun and rain:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

That is confirmation bias - no matter what happens you still call it Gods doing. But it's also wisdom being taught before Jesus.
Suggesting the Jesus story was filled with contemporary Jewish wisdom at the time they made a Greek mystery savior religion out of Judaism.

Hillel the Elder, died 10 CE

Similarities to the Golden Rule​

Love of peace​

Obligations to self and others​

Other maxims[edit]​

• "Do not separate yourself from the community; do not believe in yourself until the day you die; do not judge your fellow until you have reached their place; do not say something inappropriate, for it will then be appropriated; and do not say, 'When I am free I will study,' for perhaps you will not become free."[24]
• "Whosoever destroys one soul, it is as though he had destroyed the entire world. And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the entire world."[27]
• "A name gained is a name lost."[28]
• "Where there are no men, strive to be a man!"[29]
• "My humiliation is my exaltation; my exaltation is my humiliation."[30]

Hillel the Elder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tinkerpeach]

If there were direct evidence there would be no reason for faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there were direct evidence there would be no reason for faith.

True, but I guess I need more than faith to believe that God is loving, given everything I see in the world that runs contrary to that.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Anyone can ‘believe’ that God is Love, and maybe those two things above demonstrate God’s Love, but what does God actually do on a regular basis to demonstrate His Love?

He’s been exercising patience…. Time was required for the sovereignty issues in Genesis 3, and loyalty tests in Job 2, to be settled.

Until His appointed “time”.
Revelation 11:18….”ruining the Earth” is happening now.

After that, “the former things will not be called the mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” Isaiah 65:17

 

[sun rise]

what does God actually do on a regular basis to demonstrate His Love? In my opinion, if God is All-Loving, we should be able to see evidence of that,
...
Nobody can prove that God is Love or that God is All-Loving.

The intellect cannot answer your question. Thus you're right that the intellect cannot prove God is Love. Only the "heart" can experience that Truth.

I think that the reason this family is so happy is because of the love they have for each other. I know what brings happiness to me, feeling and expressing love for other people and animals. People are expressing love for each other all the time but how is God expressing love towards people?

To me, God is in everyone's heart.

 

[Trailblazer]

The intellect cannot answer your question. Thus you're right that the intellect cannot prove God is Love. Only the "heart" can experience that Truth.

I agree that the intellect cannot answer my question. The intellect cannot prove God is Love. Only the "heart" can experience that, since it is a feeling, but I would not call it Truth unless it can be proven. I would only say "I believe it is the Truth" ..... if I believed it.

To me, God is in everyone's heart.

But what does that actually mean? I am a pragmatist.
Also, if someone does not "feel" God in their heart, how is that helpful to them? It ends up being nothing more than a cliche.

The heart is symbolic for Love. Love is not a thought, it is an emotion. We think with our minds but we feel Love in our hearts.
According to Baha'u'llah, God wants to be in our hearts, and to me that means God wants us to Love Him, not for His benefit, but for our own benefit.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

59: O SON OF BEING! Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 17​

​

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue.” Gleanings, p. 279​

​

“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.​

​

Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” Gleaning, p. 186​

 

[Twilight Hue]

Love isn't exclusive evidence of God's doing.

People don't need a or any god to enable them to love one another. The evidence is of people alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Love isn't exclusive evidence of God's doing.

People don't need a or any god to enable them to love one another. The evidence is of people alone.

No, people don't need God to enable them to love one another, although some people believe they do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

By what the Bible tells, one demonstration of God love is sun and rain:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

Beautiful answer. I believe our individual lives are effected by and tied up with society and it’s spiritual condition or lack therefore and this reflects in our own personal lives. So what have we learned over the centuries? We’ve learned conflict and competition, greed and egotism. So if that’s all we see we are right to say where is love and where is the God of love?

But If we learn to love one another and society becomes just and loving then we can feel love and feel God’s love for us. But as we are living in a decadent age where there is materialism and consumerism so we question these things. However I believe such questions are only relative to the times we live in and even our own particular situation. I feel God’s love every minute all around me and I have had my fair share of traumas in life. But for me personally the greatest gift in life has been given to me and I treasure it as I do my sight and life.

We all suffer, become ill and will die but I believe we are surrounded by God’s love. God offers us all His Gifts and Blessings but we do not always accept them or understand their true value.

How could a person who truly understands God‘s Gifts ever conclude He is not a God of pure love? For me it all comes down to how much value one places on God’s Gifts and Blessings. I personally value the gift of the knowledge of God and Baha’u’llah above my very life.

If I were to thank God 100,000 times with each breath for the blessing of knowing Him it would never suffice. The early Baha’i martyrs knew of God’s great love for us and considered it a blessing to die in His path. These women knew God’s love and sacrificed their lives out of love. These women are the lovers giving up their lives for the Beloved.

BIC Geneva: Campaign honors Bahá’í women executed in Iran 40 years ago and highlights principle of equality | BWNS

40 years ago, Iran executed 10 Bahá’í women; today, BIC launches #OurStoryIsOne, inviting artistic works to honor them and the principle of equality.

news.bahai.org

 

[The Hammer]

True, but I guess I need more than faith to believe that God is loving, given everything I see in the world that runs contrary to that.

The Gods are more than just loving. They are every bit, and more, complex then any human.

 

[Trailblazer]

Beautiful answer. I believe our individual lives are effected by and tied up with society and it’s spiritual condition or lack therefore and this reflects in our own personal lives. So what have we learned over the centuries? We’ve learned conflict and competition, greed and egotism. So if that’s all we see we are right to say where is love and where is the God of love?

But If we learn to love one another and society becomes just and loving then we can feel love and feel God’s love for us. But as we are living in a decadent age where there is materialism and consumerism so we question these things. However I believe such questions are only relative to the times we live in and even our own particular situation. I feel God’s love every minute all around me and I have had my fair share of traumas in life. But for me personally the greatest gift in life has been given to me and I treasure it as I do my sight and life.

We all suffer, become ill and will die but I believe we are surrounded by God’s love. God offers us all His Gifts and Blessings but we do not always accept them or understand their true value.

How could a person who truly understands God‘s Gifts ever conclude He is not a God of pure love? For me it all comes down to how much value one places on God’s Gifts and Blessings. I personally value the gift of the knowledge of God and Baha’u’llah above my very life.

If I were to thank God 100,000 times with each breath for the blessing of knowing Him it would never suffice. The early Baha’i martyrs knew of God’s great love for us and considered it a blessing to die in His path. These women knew God’s love and sacrificed their lives out of love. These women are the lovers giving up their lives for the Beloved.

BIC Geneva: Campaign honors Bahá’í women executed in Iran 40 years ago and highlights principle of equality | BWNS

40 years ago, Iran executed 10 Bahá’í women; today, BIC launches #OurStoryIsOne, inviting artistic works to honor them and the principle of equality.

news.bahai.org

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

What do we believe, what Jesus said, or what Abdu'l-Baha said? In this case I am going with Abdu'l-Baha since it makes more logical sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

But If we learn to love one another and society becomes just and loving then we can feel love and feel God’s love for us.

If we learn to love one another how does that demonstrate God's love for us?

We all suffer, become ill and will die but I believe we are surrounded by God’s love.

Where is it, I don't see it? It is only a 'belief' that we are surrounded by God's love and there is no evidence to support it.

God offers us all His Gifts and Blessings but we do not always accept them or understand their true value.

How could a person who truly understands God‘s Gifts ever conclude He is not a God of pure love? For me it all comes down to how much value one places on God’s Gifts and Blessings.

What are God's Gifts and Blessings? It is easy to talk about those when 'you' feel blessed.

It does no good for this Cause to hide one's head in the sand.
Why are believers so blind to all the suffering in this world, a world God created that is a storehouse of suffering?

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it…….”​

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200​

No, it is not ignorance that binds man to this world. It is God who created it and we are bound to live in it until we die.

It is also God who brings the bad times as well as the good times. Is the Bible convenient to quote only when you like what it says?

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

AMP The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

TLB I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.

NASB The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NCB I form the light and create the darkness; prosperity and disaster depend upon my will; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NCV I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

I personally value the gift of the knowledge of God and Baha’u’llah above my very life.

If I were to thank God 100,000 times with each breath for the blessing of knowing Him it would never suffice.

For me, belief in God and Baha'u'llah has not been a panacea. Then again, my life has been altogether different from your life.

If the Baha'i Faith is a panacea to its followers, why do Baha'is have the same problems as everyone else? Why are so many Baha'is inactive?

Clearly, I do not see what you see because I don't look at the Baha'i Faith with rose-colored glasses, I look at what is really going on.

Granted, what the Baha'is do has no bearing on whether Baha'u'llah was who he claimed to be, a Manifestation of God. Humans are imperfect so they will often fail to live up to the teachings and standards.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If we learn to love one another how does that demonstrate God's love for us?

Where is it, I don't see it? It is only a 'belief' that we are surrounded by God's love and there is no evidence to support it.

What are God's Gifts and Blessings? It is easy to talk about those when 'you' feel blessed.

It does no good for this Cause to hide one's head in the sand.
Why are believers so blind to all the suffering in this world, a world God created that is a storehouse of suffering?

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it…….”​

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200​

No, it is not ignorance that binds man to this world. It is God who created it and we are bound to live in it until we die.

It is also God who brings the bad times as well as the good times. Is the Bible convenient to quote only when you like what it says?

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

AMP The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

TLB I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.

NASB The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NCB I form the light and create the darkness; prosperity and disaster depend upon my will; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NCV I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

For me, belief in God and Baha'u'llah has not been a panacea. Then again, my life has been altogether different from your life.

If the Baha'i Faith is a panacea to its followers, why do Baha'is have the same problems as everyone else? Why are so many Baha'is inactive?

Clearly, I do not see what you see because I don't look at the Baha'i Faith with rose-colored glasses, I look at what is really going on.

Granted, what the Baha'is do has no bearing on whether Baha'u'llah was who he claimed to be, a Manifestation of God. Humans are imperfect so they will often fail to live up to the teachings and standards.

it may be very difficult for some to trust in God’s love for us but we are told that our earthly minds and limitations cannot encompass God. The highest form of belief is to accept “He shall not be asked of His doings’ and that if we do not do so according to Baha’u’llah, doubts will agitate our hearts.


161 “Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings”. Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.

163 Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honour to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next.”

Baha’u’llah tells us in the Hidden Words that God created us out of love.

“O Son of Man!

Veiled in My immemorial
being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee;
therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine
image and revealed to thee My beauty.

O Son of Man!

I loved thy creation,
hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that
I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.”

The Hidden Words
Bahá'u'lláh

The Bab regarding true worship of God.

WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.

 

[Trailblazer]

it may be very difficult for some to trust in God’s love for us but we are told that our earthly minds and limitations cannot encompass God.

That's right, humans cannot understand God owing to our limitations and that is why I am sick to death of humans telling me that God is Loving.
God created us out of His love for us is not the same as saying that God is loving, and besides that, lots of things have happened since humans were created. Maybe God thought we humans were going to be what He hoped we would be but that has not turned out to be the case.

I think that some atheists like @blü 2 can understand this but sadly, believers are too biased to understand.

 

[osgart]

Isn't it either love God or God will destroy you?That's an ultimatum I can live without.

if God is just then God loves atheists as atheists.

even anti theists who consider God a horrible idea: wouldn't God love the anti theist as well?

i have to say as an atheist God should love those that reject and rebel against God for the right reasons.

i could only love a God who wasn't shallow enough to reject people on the basis of honest disbelief.

I reject any God that hates honest atheists and honest anti theists.

God seems to demand love. Love is entered into freely or it ain't love.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here's how I see it: I'm happy I am alive. I'm not happy with every circumstance in my life or in the world, that's for sure. But I'm happy to see life. I didn't have to be born; it was obviously a circumstance between my mother and father. I didn't have a choice. I'm glad as I grew up (older) I began to know God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't it either love God or God will destroy you?That's an ultimatum I can live without.

No, I don't think that's true, and it's not a Baha'i teaching.

if God is just then God loves atheists as atheists.

even anti theists who consider God a horrible idea: wouldn't God love the anti theist as well?

i have to say as an atheist God should love those that reject and rebel against God for the right reasons.

God loves everyone regardless of their beliefs or non-beliefs.

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."

('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

i could only love a God who wasn't shallow enough to reject people on the basis of honest disbelief.

I reject any God that hates honest atheists and honest anti theists.

I do not believe that God rejects anyone on the basis of honest disbelief and that is not a Baha'i teaching.

God does not hate anyone, God loves everyone.

God seems to demand love. Love is entered into freely or it ain't love.

No, God does not demand love. God does not need our love. God only wants us to love Him so we can have a connection to Him.
If we do not love God, we close the conduit by which love flows from God to us, and then back to God.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I agree. Love is entered into freely or it ain't love. I don't think God wants phonies. We either love Him sincerely or it is better not to love.
I cannot force myself to love God but I am working on it. That's what these threads are all about.

I don't think my loving God should be contingent upon whether God loves me. I just want to know whether there is any evidence of God's love.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's how I see it: I'm happy I am alive. I'm not happy with every circumstance in my life or in the world, that's for sure. But I'm happy to see life. I didn't have to be born; it was obviously a circumstance between my mother and father. I didn't have a choice. I'm glad as I grew up (older) I began to know God.

Do you think your happiness to be alive is evidence of God's love?