After Jesus was risen, his disciples could touch him, but Jesus could also appear in locked room. I think that means, the spiritual body is something that can also be felt the same way as physical body. But, it is not the same as a physical body for example because of the ability to move through walls/doors.
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What is the meaning of Acts 1:9-11?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Brian2
Veteran Member
Are you saying that it means that Baha'u'llah will rise from the dead?
If so I would disagree since the disciples have told people about the vision, so the Son of Man Jesus was referring to must be Him, Jesus.
We get close to agreeing at times but never quite get there.
It is true that the body that the disciples saw ascending to heaven is the spiritual resurrection body, which is immortal and incorruptible. What was buried, the physical body, died and was transformed into the spiritual resurrection body.
We don't know exactly what this body is like but get clues from the body Jesus had at His resurrection. It seemed to have physical and spirit qualities,,,,,,,,,,,,, sort of like light has both wave and particle qualities.
Brian2
Veteran Member
If you believe the stories are not true then why are you worried about what they say?
One minute you are trying to sus out what and even if the disciples saw Jesus ascend and what sort of body it was and then the next minute you are saying the whole thing is just rubbish anyway.
But when your teahers one minute say that the gospel story is the memories of the disciples of Jesus and the next minute say that the resurrection and ascension stories are just allegories, what more can I expect from your teachers' disciples.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
The problem is, the verses do not say that the disciples saw anything. Read the verses carefully. Nobody said that they saw anything, neither the two men in while linen nor the disciples. Acts 1:9 says that Jesus was taken up before their very eyes, but it does not say that the disciples saw Jesus. I never noticed that before I started this thread.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
You must have somehow missed those places I have just highlighted,,,,,,,,,,,, the ones that tell us that the disciples saw Jesus ascending and that Jesus was hidden from their view after a while by cloud.
Actually if they did not see anything ascending then there was no reason for them to be looking up, they may as well have looked to their right or left or behind them when Jesus disappeared. There would have been no way for them to know that He even ascended.
Yes the text says "this same Jesus" and that would usually mean,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no, always mean,,,,,,,,,, that it would be the same Jesus who would return. In fact the angel said that it would be the very same Jesus whom they saw Him go to heaven.
And yes, nobody had heard of Baha'u'llah and Baha'i type Prophets/Manifestations, so what they wrote had nothing to do with another Jesus, another Son of Man, or anything to do with anything that Baha'u'llah taught.
The first century Christians believed the "same Jesus" would return and resurrect the dead and judge the world and rule as King over the Kingdom of God which He began to preach while on earth.
Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.…
Christians usually want to believe the same things that Jesus told His disciples and that they preached to the world.
It is for this reason that we say that Baha'u'llah is just a false prophet and false Christ.
Baha'u'llah want to change the whole meaning of not only the New Testament and gospel and who Jesus is, but also of the Old Testament.
Luke the writer of the gospel of Luke, wrote Acts according to the evidence.
I believe them because I believe the Bible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, unlike others I know on this very forum and whose names I will not mention.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The infallible Shoghi Effendi says that the resurrection stories were allegorical. See post 59.
The angel pointed to the body missing from the tomb as evidence of the resurrection (Matt 28:6)
Jesus came back to life bodily, but the body was a spiritual body. The physical body had been transformed to an immortal and incorruptible spiritual body.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew 17:9
NKJV
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."
No, I don't think that verse is referring to Baha'u'llah since Baha'u'llah did not rise from the dead.
Matthew 17 describes the transfiguration, and since the transfiguration was before the crucifixion and the resurrection, I think the Son of Man Jesus was referring to was Jesus.
I agree that what was buried, the physical body, died and was transformed into the spiritual resurrection body so I think it was the spiritual body that people saw walking around town, eating and drinking.
I agree with what @1213 said because it makes sense: After Jesus was risen, his disciples could touch him, but Jesus could also appear in locked room. I think that means, the spiritual body is something that can also be felt the same way as physical body. But, it is not the same as a physical body for example because of the ability to move through walls/doors. #61
I believe we will all have a spiritual body after our physical body dies. The difference is that we won't hang around earth like Jesus did, we will go straight to heaven.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I a not worried. I am just trying to sort things out and figures out what might have happened.
I don't know if the stories are true, as there is no way to know
All along I have been saying that if the disciples saw Jesus ascend it was in a spiritual body, not in a physical body. A spiritual body is not subject to gravity so it could ascend. A spiritual body also belongs in heaven, so it would make sense for it to ascend to heaven.
I also had my interpretation that it was the Christ Spirit that ascended, but I now realize that doesn't fit with the verses so I don't think that is what the men in white linen were describing. My interpretation certainly is not an authoritative Baha'i interpretation as there is no authoritative Baha'i interpretation.
It was Abdu'l-Baha who said that the resurrection and ascension stories were allegories, Baha'u'llah never said that. Baha'is are supposed to accept everything that Abdu'l-Baha said as true but I don't. I think for myself.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Whoever wrote Acts said that Jesus was taken up before the very eyes of the disciples and a cloud hid him from their sight. The disciples were looking intently up into the sky when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside the disciples, and those two men asked the disciples why they were standing there looking into the sky. Then the author of Acts said that this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. The verses do not say that the disciples saw Jesus.
You raise a good point though. If the disciples did not see anything ascending then there was no reason for them to be looking up, they may as well have looked to their right or left or behind them when Jesus disappeared.
Here is are the problems you have.
a) A physical body cannot ascend into the sky, defying gravity.
b) A physical body cannot exist in heaven since heaven is not a physical world.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
The only possibility is that it was the spiritual body of Jesus they saw that ascend into the sky, but then we have another problem.
c) A spiritual body cannot live on earth and be SEEN the way you believe that Jesus will be seen by everyone when He returns.
d) That means that a spiritual body cannot return to earth the same way that it went up to heaven.
*** According to 1 Cor15:40 there are only two kinds of bodies, and they are different.
Physical bodies are for living on earth and spiritual bodies are for living in heaven. ***
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
It is possible that whoever wrote these verses in Acts did not know that. And after all it was only the author of Acts said "this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Jesus did not "I am being taken from you into heaven, and I will come back in the same way you have seen me go into heaven."
That's true. what they wrote had nothing to do with another Jesus, another Son of Man, or anything to do with anything that Baha'u'llah taught.
But just because the Bible authors did not know about or write about Baha'u'llah, that does not mean that Baha'u'llah was not the return of the Son of Man, thus the return of Christ.
If you want to live in the past that is your choice. It is like you are reading an newspaper that is 2000 years old when a new newspaper was just delivered, hot of the press.
Most Baha'is in the western world were formerly Christians so that proves it is possible for Christians to see the light and accept the new revelation.
Even if Luke wrote Acts my point was why base your entire belief in three verses in Acts? What about the rest of the Bible?
I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote because I believe He was the Messenger of God for this age, and as such He is the one we should be following.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Shoghi Effendi was not infallible.
I have heard from others that there are at least four different accounts of what happened at the resurrection and they contradict each other.
I can go along with that, and I am now meeting you halfway, rather than saying the resurrection stories were either fictional or symbolic.
Normally when people die they go straight to heaven and get a spiritual body, but apparently Jesus had some more work to do before He ascended to heaven.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Believing the Born-Again Christian story or the Baha'i story is very important. But the two can't be believed by a person at the same time. The Born-Again Christian story is easy to figure out... It goes by what the gospel story says. Do we and can we trust the writers? Is what they wrote about Jesus believable? It's hard for some of us to believe it. But is the Baha'i interpretation of the story any easier to believe?
For some, yes, for Baha'is it solves a lot of problems. The weird miraculous things don't have to be believed. But they can still believe in a Jesus that is more "normal". He's not God. He did rise from the dead. And he didn't float off into space. But Baha'is still make him a "manifestation" of God. But his message can't contradict or be better than any of the other people that Baha'is believe were "manifestations".
They need him and want him to be special but not too special. And not to have done things too out of the ordinary. And not to have taught anything that contradicts the teachings of the manifestation of God they believe in, Baha'u'llah. I really wonder, by the time Baha'is are done with Jesus, how special was he? Not very. He becomes a Jesus that can be believed in, in the Baha'i way, and then ignored, because they make him irrelevant. But then again, how "special" is Baha'u'llah to Christians? Not very.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hmmm? So, he's not infallible. Yet, Baha'is trust his interpretations and guidance? I wonder what Baha'is will do if they find some of the things he said aren't true? And I wonder if some Baha'is questions his guidance at times? And now with their Universal House of Justice... I thought they were "infallible" in their decisions. But that their decisions could be changed... in case they were wrong.
Anyway, so just because Shoghi Effendi says the stories were allegorical that doesn't mean that it is true. Good to know.
Brian2
Veteran Member
From this site: Shoghi Effendi - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith
Shoghi Effendi Rabbani (March 1, 1897 - November 4, 1957) was a direct descendant of Bahá’u’lláh and the grandson of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. After the Ascension of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá he was appointed the Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith serving as the Head of the Bahá’í community from 1921 until his passing in 1957.
As Guardian Shoghi Effendi was the Head of the international Bahá’í community and the authorized infallible interpreter of Bahá’í scripture. For much of his ministry he almost single-handedly managed the international affairs of the Faith establishing major teaching plans to organize community work and maintaining a prolific correspondence with Bahá’í individuals and institutions to provide personal and administrative guidance.
Brian2
Veteran Member
From this site: Shoghi Effendi - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith
Shoghi Effendi Rabbani (March 1, 1897 - November 4, 1957) was a direct descendant of Bahá’u’lláh and the grandson of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. After the Ascension of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá he was appointed the Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith serving as the Head of the Bahá’í community from 1921 until his passing in 1957.
As Guardian Shoghi Effendi was the Head of the international Bahá’í community and the authorized infallible interpreter of Bahá’í scripture. For much of his ministry he almost single-handedly managed the international affairs of the Faith establishing major teaching plans to organize community work and maintaining a prolific correspondence with Bahá’í individuals and institutions to provide personal and administrative guidance.
And they all show Jesus as having been raised bodily.
Jesus was resurrected into His transformed physical body. He still has this body now. It is immortal and incorruptible and can live in heaven or on earth or anywhere and is called a spiritual body,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but this word "spiritual" does not mean that the body is made of spirit afaik.
Jesus lives as a man with a resurrection body and as the eternal Son of God who fills the whole universe, like His Father. He is Son of Man and Son of God. He embodies both.
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Yokefellow
Active Member
The terminology you are using is confusing. The NLT is a bad translation.
The KJV does a much better job...
1 Corinthians 15:44
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
- Natural Body
- Spiritual Body
1 Corinthians 15:48
"As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly."
When combined, we have...
- Natural/Earthly Body
- Spiritual/Heavenly Body
Thus...
a) A physical body *can* ascend into the sky, defying gravity.
b) A physical body *can* exist in heaven since heaven *is* a physical world.
The New Heavens and New Earth is not some 'ethereal' place where people float around like ghosts. It is made of particles as well, though the physics may be different.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You may be right that a spiritual body is not subject to gravity, but that does not really matter when it comes to ascending to heaven imo.
This site gives the authoritative Baha'i interpretation of the resurrection and ascension. They did not happen literally.
Resurrection | Bahá’í Quotes
The Bible Jesus or the Baha'i Jesus?
Brian2
Veteran Member
The disciples could not see Jesus when He was hidden in a cloud, so the angels asked why they were looking into the sky.
It was the angels who said, this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. and what they said shows that they had seen Jesus go up.
Actually it does not matter if it was the angels or the author of Acts who said that, it still shows what was meant by the story.
Our corruptible natural bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption. So the natural body is changed to an immortal and incorruptible body.
1Cor 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
To me it is the Bible which is the truth. The Bible is inspired by God.
A spiritual body is not a spirit (as the resurrected body of Jesus was not) and was not invisible, and could ascend to and live in heaven and can come back the same way it ascended.
The author of Acts was Luke, the companion of Paul, the one who wrote 1Cor 15:40, but as I said, it was an angel who said that the same Jesus would return as they had seen Him ascend.
I suppose that is true, however there is no indication in the gospels that there was any other Son of Man but Jesus. The only place that comes from is Baha'i,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or imo, the false Christ.
It is not that yesterdays good news has suddenly become not true or out of date for people of today.
2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Acts 1:9-11 is just an obvious example of why Baha'u'llah is not the return of Jesus. I, as a Bible believer, do not have to go past that,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I have and have seen the same sort of examples in most things Baha'i says about the meanings in the Bible.
If Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God then we should believe him.
We can tell if he is however by if he agrees with the Bible, and clearly what Baha'i teaches changes the whole meaning of the Bible and does not agree with it.
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Colt
Well-Known Member
Good point! Jesus was able to make himself visible at will but wasn't material or carbon based. Recall that Peter was let out of prison by a celestial being. So that means that the angel could contact mater and move it yet could be invisible.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
authorized infallible interpreter of Bahá’í scripture does not mean he was infallible in any other way.
Baha'u'llah, who was infallible in everything He said.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You said:
When combined, we have...
- Natural/Earthly Body
- Spiritual/Heavenly Body
Why do you think that a Spiritual/Heavenly Body is physical (comprised of Atoms)? What is your evidence?
That is not what the Bible says.
The Bible says that the bodies we will have in heaven are different from the bodies we have on earth (1 Cor 15:40, 44).
The Bible also says the our physical bodies cannot exist in heaven (1 Cor 15:50).
Then the Bible says that our bodies will be changed (from physical bodies into spiritual bodies) (1 Cor 15:51).
1 Corinthians 15
KJ21
40 There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
ESV
40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
NIV
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
NKJV
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said:
Thus...
a) A physical body *can* ascend into the sky, defying gravity.
b) A physical body *can* exist in heaven since heaven *is* a physical world.
The New Heavens and New Earth is not some 'ethereal' place where people float around like ghosts. It is made of particles as well, though the physics may be different.
Why do you think that heaven is a physical world? What is your evidence?
Why do you think The New Heavens and New Earth is all one dimension? What is your evidence?
I believe that the New Earth refers to this physical world, it is the Kingdom of God on earth that Jesus told us to pray for.
The Kingdom of God is already in heaven, as the verse below says - "as it is in heaven".
Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As Guardian Shoghi Effendi was the Head of the international Bahá’í community and the authorized infallible interpreter of Bahá’í scripture. For much of his ministry he almost single-handedly managed the international affairs of the Faith establishing major teaching plans to organize community work and maintaining a prolific correspondence with Bahá’í individuals and institutions to provide personal and administrative guidance.
What do they show? Maybe they say that the tomb was empty, but nobody actually saw Jesus being raised bodily from the tomb.
Jesus was not resurrected into a 'transformed physical body.' When the physical body of Jesus died, Jesus was transformed/changed from a physical body into a spiritual body and He still has that spiritual body now. That spiritual body is immortal and incorruptible and can only live in heaven, it cannot live on earth.
1 Corinthians 15
New International Version
The Resurrection Body
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
The word "spiritual" does not mean that the body is made of spirit. It means it is made up of elements that exist in heaven, and we cannot know what those elements are like until we get to heaven.
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Just as heavenly bodies are different from earthly bodies (Cor 15:40), heavenly elements are different from earthly elements.
Earthly bodies can only exist with the elements that exist on earth and heavenly bodies can only exist with the elements that exist in heaven.
Once a body has been transformed from physical to spiritual, it can only exist in heaven. It cannot come back to earth and exist.