what is the origin of sin/evil?

[rusra02]

ok friends sorry i have been away for a while.

let me clarify my reasoning and this time with help from the bible...

1 john 3:8 "...the devil has been sinning from the beginning."

according to the bible then, lucifer was created in sin, since he has been sinning from the beginning of his existence.

That verse does not say Satan sinned from the beginning of his existence.
Clearly, this verse applies to his beginning as a 'devil' or slanderer. 1 John 2:7 says "Beloved ones, I am writing you, not a new commandment, but an old commandment which you have had from [the] beginning." Obviously John did not mean from their beginning as babies but their beginning as Christians.

ezechiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you..
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.

Note that Satan was blameless when created.

unlike an action you can control (such as rape,killing etc), pride is a feeling/emotion that comes naturally from within as part of a being's character/personality/nature. to say lucifer was/became proud/felt pride, is to say lucifer had a sinful nature. we (humans) may feel pride/jealousy/hate etc. because we are born in sin and thus are born with a sinful nature, and we blame it on adam and eve. but according to christian doctrine lucifer was not created in sin/with a sinful nature, because that would inconveniently turn the blame on god. though logically thats the only option. so what to do my christian friends??

Pride is a feeling, true, but pride and haughtiness are sinful emotions that God disapproves. (Proverbs 16:5) A human and an angel can allow inordinate self esteem to cause them to be haughty. Jesus, by contrast, said he was lowly in heart (Matthew 11:29) and is elsewhere described as humble. The Bible shows pride is wicked, not something natural and just part of our character. (James 4:16) Imperfect humans can and do manifest humility and lowliness of mind. Satan's prideful arrogance led him into open rebellion against God.

if god created his creation with an attraction to/prone to sin, how can his creation be blamed for having a sinful nature? it would be like blaming a building collapse on the building, rather than on the architect for designing it prone to collapsing

God did not create his spirit or human sons with an attraction to sin. Millions of faithful angels are testimony that they can be loyal to God and not sin.

a weight lifter can either have limited or unlimited strength. a woman can either be pregnant or not be pregnant. a being can either have a sinful nature or sinless nature. there is nothing in between. either god created lucifer with a sinful nature or a sinless nature. which is it? if god created lucifer with a perfect sinless nature, then lucifer would have never had sinful thoughts and felt pride/jealousy self love etc..... however if god created lucifer with a sinful nature then god is to blame for sin/evil. to blame lucifer would be like getting a little child hooked on drugs and then blaming the child for using drugs.....but then you might argue it is still the child's fault because he has the free will to choose not to use drugs right??? how does that make any sense when it was you who turned him into a drug addict in the first place?? it is not the child's fault. it is your fault. you could only blame the child if he was clean before and chose to use drugs all on his own without prior addiction....... but much like the child in this example, lucifer was not clean, he was created with a sinful nature. already hooked on sin. already a sin addict.

It simply is not true that Satan was created with a sinful nature. A thief is not born a thief. He makes himself a thief. So it was with Satan.

thats about as clear as i can make this. the whole sin blame game in the bible is as rotten as a father sending his trusting unsuspecting daughter on her way knowing the brakes on the car are shot, and then eagerly blaming the daughter for getting into the accident that left her a quadriplegic...

God is not responsible for the sins of Satan. As Deuteronomy 32:4,5 clearly states:
"The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice.A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!

 

[rusra02]

First off. Excellent last post Tomesortega. The fact that were born into sin and have such a tendency toward sin that were called "Sinners before we were born" clearly shows that either the Bible is lying or God is the one at fault. It is something that has always bothered ,and made no sense to me.


@Rusra: Focusing on the bold here. Are you implying that God has the ability to sin? It is stated that he cannot even look upon sin for it would destroy him. He even turned away from Jesus on the cross when we hear Jesus exclaim "My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?"

No, God is righeous and just in all his ways. "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice.A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4) So Jehovah's qualities make it impossible for him to sin. However, God has the ability to make moral choices. He always chooses to do what is good and righteous. His intelligent creation likewise can make moral choices. Unlike Jehovah, however, some angels and men have chosen to act unjustly and unrighteously.

 

[rusra02]

if god created "the devil" the source of all evil
the devil is doing exactly what the creator programmed him/it to be

so why do we blame the devil for influencing our thoughts and actions when in fact god is ultimately responsible, like the crafty serpent in the garden that was created to set man up for the fall?

God did not create the devil or slanderer. Satan chose to make himself such.

 

[Blackdog22]

No, God is righeous and just in all his ways. "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice.A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4) So Jehovah's qualities make it impossible for him to sin. However, God has the ability to make moral choices. He always chooses to do what is good and righteous. His intelligent creation likewise can make moral choices. Unlike Jehovah, however, some angels and men have chosen to act unjustly and unrighteously.

Yeah, I know what the Bible says. It says murdering infants is good, and thats good in your opinion because God is good. It says thousands of people wandered through a wilderness out of Egypt with a man named Moses, but theres not a single piece of evidence. It says there was a world wide flood, but again no evidence. It says Angels came down at one point and began raping humans, again look around you.

If the Bible told you that the World was flat you would believe it. However we are basing our judgements on common sense and proof. Think for yourself. Don't let a book strip you of your intellect.

Also I will post this again.

• I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

There we are. There is 3 verses to your one! Beat that! Also, blindly ignore the fact that MY VERSES AND YOUR VERSES CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.

 

[Benoni]

God is God; and does His will be it Good or Evil. Blackdog 22 is correct with the three scriptures he posted; did he not create the tree of good and evil. it was God who casued the fall not little Adam.

 

[tomasortega]

God is God; and does His will be it Good or Evil. Blackdog 22 is correct with the three scriptures he posted; did he not create the tree of good and evil. it was God who casued the fall not little Adam.

if you believe that god was at fault, then what are you a christian for???? who do you pray for forgiveness to? the guy who put you in your sin in the first place? its like getting raped and then asking your rapist for forgiveness.....

 

[tomasortega]

God did not create the devil or slanderer. Satan chose to make himself such.

right, and i was born caucasian, but i chose to make myself asian. nice logic buddy.

 

[Benoni]

I like that.

My God is God and not a god. He is the first cause as well as the last. He is the Alpha and Omega and all the Greek letters in between.

Romans 8:20 gives us a better picture.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have[/quote]

Romans 8:18-21 (MSG) That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.

22-25All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it's not only around us; it's within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We're also feeling the birth pangs. These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don't see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.

if you believe that god was at fault, then what are you a christian for???? who do you pray for forgiveness to? the guy who put you in your sin in the first place? its like getting raped and then asking your rapist for forgiveness.....

 

[Benoni]

Please do not take my word, how about being like the Bereaian’s

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)

Stop blindly following tradition and look at God’s Word for our answers and what is scriptural. Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.

Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.

God did not create the devil or slanderer. Satan chose to make himself such.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Who said God knew the first humans would sin?

There are things God does not know? I thought he was all-knowing...

 

[Beaudreaux]

You apparently do not grasp the gift of free will.

Maybe you can teach me. I understand a choice to be of a selection made from multiple possible options. Can you tell me what is incorrect in the following illustration?

 

[McBell]

Can you tell me what is incorrect in the following illustration?

Simple.
It is an attempt to put limits on gods being all knowing.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Simple.
It is an attempt to put limits on gods being all knowing.

In no way does that illustration limit God. It posits that God's knowledge is unlimited. The only being that is limited in that illustration is John Doe...

 

[McBell]

In no way does that illustration limit God. It posits that God's knowledge is unlimited. The only being that is limited in that illustration is John Doe...

I disagree.
It is an attempt to limit the definition of "all knowing" to fit into an agenda that supposedly shows there is no free will.

I am surprised that you are unable to see it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I disagree.
It is an attempt to limit the definition of "all knowing" to fit into an agenda that supposedly shows there is no free will.

I am surprised that you are unable to see it.

Well, I am willing to be taught. I have always thought that "all knowing" meant to know everything, but I suppose I could be wrong. How would you define it so that God is not limited?

 

[Twig pentagram]

what is the origin of sin/evil? who is to blame for the existence of sin?if god is omnibenevolent, and his creation is perfect in his image, and there is no sin in heaven, then how could lucifer(god's creation) sin against god in heaven? it is said that lucifer felt pride and/or jealousy, both of which are considered sins. so how could sin be part of lucifer's nature if god created him in the absence of sin?

I think mankind is the origin of evil, because we created the ideal of evil. The same thing goes for good.

 

[McBell]

Well, I am willing to be taught. I have always thought that "all knowing" meant to know everything, but I suppose I could be wrong. How would you define it so that God is not limited?

What the hell are you talking about?
I never redefined the term all knowing.


Would not an all knowing being know every possible out come from every single choose?
ANd how exactly does god knowing before hand what you are going to choose effect your ability to make a choice?
Perhaps your argument is that god let you in on what you were going to choose AND prevented you from choosing otherwise?

 

[Beaudreaux]

What the hell are you talking about?
I never redefined the term all knowing.

Don't look now but you're about to do it again.

Would not an all knowing being know every possible out come from every single choose?

I say that, not only does God know all the possible outcomes, he knows exactly what the outcome will be.

ANd how exactly does god knowing before hand what you are going to choose effect your ability to make a choice?

A choice is a selection from multiple possible options. See the diagram below to see why God's foreknowledge means only one option would exist in any given situation.

 

[McBell]

A choice is a selection from multiple possible options. See the diagram below to see why God's foreknowledge means only one option would exist in any given situation.

The problem here is that your diagram does not do what you claim it does:

"to see why God's foreknowledge means only one option would exist in any given situation"
​

I mean, if all you got is that diagram as your explanation as to how someone knowing what you will do eliminates your free will then you do not have an explanation at all.

Don't get me wrong.
It is a pretty diagram.
With all the pretty colours and all.
and if you are merely posting it as many times as you can because you think it is pretty, that is all fine and dandy.
But it does not help your explanation at all.

You are going to actually explain how foreknowledge of what you decide to do somehow eliminates your free will, right?
If not, that's cool, but it would be a rather polite thing to just flat out say you aren't.

 

[Rakhel]

G-d is the origin of sin because he created D'evil