what is the origin of sin/evil?

[Beaudreaux]

The problem here is that your diagram does not do what you claim it does:

"to see why God's foreknowledge means only one option would exist in any given situation"
​

I mean, if all you got is that diagram as your explanation as to how someone knowing what you will do eliminates your free will then you do not have an explanation at all.

You still have not told me what in the diagram is incorrect. Obviously, you find something about it to be in error since you hold it in such low regard. Please share. What is incorrect about that illustration?

Don't get me wrong.
It is a pretty diagram.
With all the pretty colours and all.
and if you are merely posting it as many times as you can because you think it is pretty, that is all fine and dandy.
But it does not help your explanation at all.
You are going to actually explain how foreknowledge of what you decide to do somehow eliminates your free will, right?
If not, that's cool, but it would be a rather polite thing to just flat out say you aren't.

Egotistical, peevish condescension does not a refutation make. Don't get me wrong. Your words are really snotty and arrogant. With all the super subtle sarcasm and all. but they're not really an argument. BTW, you still have not pointed out a single error in the position illustrated with all the pretty colors. If you're not going to, that's fine and dandy, but it still leaves you with nothing but self-important bluster.

Oh well. Everyone learns things differently. Maybe you're not a visual person. I made the diagram because so many people claim to not understand the written argument that I though laying it our visually would help. Here's the basic argument.

1. God is omniscient and knew every action you would ever take in your life before he created the universe.
2. In any given situation, God knows what you will do.
3. That means that, in any given situation, you WILL do what God foreknew because if you did something else God would have been incorrect and God cannot be incorrect.

Maybe to refute me, rather than working up another fit of pique, you could explain to me how it could be possible that we could fool God by doing something He did not know we would do.

 

[joea]

The divine is hidden in all of us...including the devil. The word divine comes from the root word devil

 

[rusra02]

Yeah, I know what the Bible says. It says murdering infants is good, and thats good in your opinion because God is good. It says thousands of people wandered through a wilderness out of Egypt with a man named Moses, but theres not a single piece of evidence. It says there was a world wide flood, but again no evidence. It says Angels came down at one point and began raping humans, again look around you.

If the Bible told you that the World was flat you would believe it. However we are basing our judgements on common sense and proof. Think for yourself. Don't let a book strip you of your intellect.

Also I will post this again.

• I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

There we are. There is 3 verses to your one! Beat that! Also, blindly ignore the fact that MY VERSES AND YOUR VERSES CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.

You state "If the Bible told you that the World was flat you would believe it."
Of course, the Bible doesn't tell us the world is flat. And the Bible does not tell us that the Earth rests on the back of a demi-god, or 2 elephants that stand on a turtle. Though written thousands of years ago, it is accurate and reliable. People who think for themselves will examine the evidence for the Bible's inspiration, and not quickly accept claims from others who denigrate the Bible.

Show me the evidence that Washington crossed the Delaware. Or that Genghis Khan existed. Or Davy Crockett. Time and again scoffers of Bible history have been proven wrong as places and people mentioned in the Bible have been uncovered by archeologists. The places and nations discussed in the Bible can readily be found today in most cases, even after thousands of years. There is testimony from reliable eyewitnesses to what the Bible says.

Finally, the verses you quote do not contradict the rest of the scriptures. The Hebrew word translated evil is also translated as "gloomy", "calamitous", "ugly" etc.
Evil is not always synonymous with badness. While God creates calamity or evil for the wicked, what he does is never wrong or bad. This calamity results in pain, sorrow, or distress for the wicked, but the evil felt is deserved, such as the ten plagues on Egypt.

Genesis 9:21 says "Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; "

Isaiah 45:7 in a modern transation says: "Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

Amos 3:6 in a modern translation says: "If a horn is blown in a city, do not also the people themselves tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city, is it not also Jehovah who has acted?"

Lamentations 3:38 in a modern translation says: "From the mouth of the Most High bad things and what is good do not go forth." This seems to indicate the Most High does not have bad things go forth from his mouth, and the context of this verse bears out that thought.

 

[McBell]

Maybe to refute me, rather than working up another fit of pique, you could explain to me how it could be possible that we could fool God by doing something He did not know we would do.

And you still have not explained how foreknowledge prevents freewill.
I thought the question was straight forward and easy to understand:

How does foreknowledge of your decision BY SOMEONE(THING) ELSE, eliminate YOUR free will to choose?
​

 

[Reptillian]

I agree with Socrates' view that the origin of most evil is ignorance. People make evil choices because either they don't know what the good thing to do is, or they know but choose evil because they are ignorant about the consequences of their actions. Its only through knowledge of virtue that people are able to consistently choose good.

 

[Beaudreaux]

And you still have not explained how foreknowledge prevents freewill.
I thought the question was straight forward and easy to understand:

How does foreknowledge of your decision BY SOMEONE(THING) ELSE, eliminate YOUR free will to choose?
​

Perhaps we need to acknowledge foreknowledge proves THAT there is no free will before we start a discussion of HOW it works. Would you agree?

 

[McBell]

Perhaps we need to acknowledge foreknowledge proves THAT there is no free will before we start a discussion of HOW it works. Would you agree?

I am not going to accept any unsubstantiated claim.
And that is exactly what "foreknowledge proves THAT there is no free will" is, an unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Blackdog22]

You state "If the Bible told you that the World was flat you would believe it."
Of course, the Bible doesn't tell us the world is flat. And the Bible does not tell us that the Earth rests on the back of a demi-god, or 2 elephants that stand on a turtle. Though written thousands of years ago, it is accurate and reliable. People who think for themselves will examine the evidence for the Bible's inspiration, and not quickly accept claims from others who denigrate the Bible.

Show me the evidence that Washington crossed the Delaware. Or that Genghis Khan existed. Or Davy Crockett. Time and again scoffers of Bible history have been proven wrong as places and people mentioned in the Bible have been uncovered by archeologists. The places and nations discussed in the Bible can readily be found today in most cases, even after thousands of years. There is testimony from reliable eyewitnesses to what the Bible says.

Finally, the verses you quote do not contradict the rest of the scriptures. The Hebrew word translated evil is also translated as "gloomy", "calamitous", "ugly" etc.
Evil is not always synonymous with badness. While God creates calamity or evil for the wicked, what he does is never wrong or bad. This calamity results in pain, sorrow, or distress for the wicked, but the evil felt is deserved, such as the ten plagues on Egypt.

Genesis 9:21 says "Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; "

Isaiah 45:7 in a modern transation says: "Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

Amos 3:6 in a modern translation says: "If a horn is blown in a city, do not also the people themselves tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city, is it not also Jehovah who has acted?"

Lamentations 3:38 in a modern translation says: "From the mouth of the Most High bad things and what is good do not go forth." This seems to indicate the Most High does not have bad things go forth from his mouth, and the context of this verse bears out that thought.

Firstly I am not talking about proof of whether Jesus or Washington existed or walked or crossed anything. I am talking about scripture disproving scripture.

Yes I know of the translation that Christians use to justify the word evil and replace it with calamity. My first question would be what exactly is calamity? Earthquakes? Tornados? Destruction? These seem to fit the bill. So if according to scripture

"shall there be evil/calamity in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Now before assuming that you know interpretation or whatever site your going to knows translation better than the scholars who have spent there lives devoted to understanding translations. Perhaps you should take a step back and think that maybe these people know a little better than you. Who most certainly has next to know background in historical translations.

Now having said that you seem to agree later in your post that evil and calamity are synonymous, but not with evil. Do you consider the calamity in Haiti a good thing? Was little kids being demolished not evil? How is calamity and death of babies a good thing? Tsunamis are good things now in your eyes? If you were to stand up and declare that these monstrous events are "good" things I think you would run the risk of being killed in most public places because it shows your wicked/insane.

Thirdly, this scripture:

Genesis 9:21 says "Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; "

You realize this is in Genesis? Meaning every atrocity commited after this point was God directly contradicting itself.

Look man. Don't argue the Bible as some flawless non contradicting book. Many Christians believe it is contradictory. The fact is your following a book that doesn't follow itself and you arguments to defend it are falling terribly flat.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I am not going to accept any unsubstantiated claim.
And that is exactly what "foreknowledge proves THAT there is no free will" is, an unsubstantiated claim.

I wish you would lay out your problems with the argument instead of just saying there is no substantiation to the claim.

Tell you what. I will totally concede that you are right and I am wrong if you will give a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do.

Since this question and your answer to it are part of my substantiation of the claim, please don't respond by saying the claim is unsubstantiated. You and I are working on it right now. . I await your response.

 

[Rakhel]

translations, translations, translations.

Gen 8:21. And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8173

Gen 9:11. And I will establish My covenant with you, and never again will all flesh be cut off by the flood waters, and there will never again be a flood to destroy the earth."

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8172

He did not say he wouldn't curse any beings, He said he will not smite all living beings.

 

[Blackdog22]

translations, translations, translations.
Genesis - Chapter 9 (Parshah Noach) - Genesis - Torah - Bible


Genesis - Chapter 8 (Parshah Noach) - Genesis - Torah - Bible

He did not say he wouldn't curse any beings, He said he will not smite all living beings.

Meh, I say my translations right. No need to follow yours.

Either way how exactly is a world wide flood not a curse upon the earth? How exactly are earthquakes not curses on the earth? Unless of course Earthquakes are good and will be present in Heaven. Either way I win. The Bible is so much fun!

 

[Abulafia]

You cannot hold that a being is omnibenevolent and omnipotent simultaneously due to the condition of nature today. Is there sin today? Correct Answer: Yes. Is there a God? Theist Answer: Yes. Is he omnibenevolent (in his infinite magnanimity!!! (rather boring)) and omnipotent? Answer: Yes! Yes, Yes, Yes! Take my quick hypothetical/parabolic scenario here: Pygmalion (our dear sculpter) is constructing a daughter for his stony wife. He molds and carves, creases and folds, until the thing is done. He knows that as he makes this mineralic daughter in 3 days the arm is going to shrink due to overly moist clay. Is it Pyg's fault? No, no of course not. But in God's case he has a plethora of resources, an infinite supply of clay. He therefore anticipated (omniscient) this situation and because he is infinitely powerful (omnipotent), decided to lay back in quasi-anhedonia, and watch the tike's arm contract and crack. How can this deity be truly omnibenevolent? Sure, sure lets proceed from rote: "But, but humans had to have free will, it's intrinsic!" Ah, sure, my dear Watsono, but there were no humans present to be the ultimate perpetrator of the fall of the light. The devil was an angel or 'jinn if you like (Islamic believers, I will have to write a seperate rebuttal.) thus being created before humanity, and fell before humanity. The source is God, all things are of the maker, for without it, the maker is not the only one, the maker is one of two, or the maker without the strictures of ultimate benevolence.

 

[Abulafia]

The divine is hidden in all of us...including the devil. The word divine comes from the root word devil

Etymologically interesting:clap, yet words are crazy. Did you know that à la mode means "in the fashion." Indeed.

 

[Rakhel]

Meh, I say my translations right. No need to follow yours.

Either way how exactly is a world wide flood not a curse upon the earth? How exactly are earthquakes not curses on the earth? Unless of course Earthquakes are good and will be present in Heaven. Either way I win. The Bible is so much fun!

HAHAHA!!! You so funny. A big problem with your translations are that the timing is off.

But to the point at hand...When has the entire population been affected by one single earthquake? Has there been a global flood since it was first written? What of tornadoes or hurricanes? Are people in Greece being swallowed by an earthquake that happens in California? I haven't heard of flooding in Russia during a hurricane that is hitting New Zealand. And I guess Newfoundland is being hit volcanic ash from Hawaii?

 

[Blackdog22]

HAHAHA!!! You so funny. A big problem with your translations are that the timing is off.

But to the point at hand...When has the entire population been affected by one single earthquake? Has there been a global flood since it was first written? What of tornadoes or hurricanes? Are people in Greece being swallowed by an earthquake that happens in California? I haven't heard of flooding in Russia during a hurricane that is hitting New Zealand. And I guess Newfoundland is being hit volcanic ash from Hawaii?

Gen 8:21. And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

When it says I will no longer curse the earth because of man. I don't think it means a flood in Russia when land in New Zealand. I think it means the Earth will no longer be cursed because of us as it says. If there is an earthquake on the earth, then the earth has been cursed. If any part of the earth is cursed then the earth has been cursed. Just look at plant life. There is poisonous plants in abundance all around us. The earth is very obviously cursed.

Also, my translation is still better and I feel that your translations timing is off. No real reason. Just because.

 

[Abulafia]

HAHAHA!!! You so funny. A big problem with your translations are that the timing is off.

But to the point at hand...When has the entire population been affected by one single earthquake? Has there been a global flood since it was first written? What of tornadoes or hurricanes? Are people in Greece being swallowed by an earthquake that happens in California? I haven't heard of flooding in Russia during a hurricane that is hitting New Zealand. And I guess Newfoundland is being hit volcanic ash from Hawaii?

Natural Xenocide: Verboten!
Natural Genocide: Permissable.
Natural Homocide: A Go, Houston, it is a go!

Rather obdurate reasoning. The topographical schlock doesn't so much as matter as the fact that the natural events are affecting indivuals, perhaps not en masse, but that is cruel collective reasoning.

When has the entire population been affected by one single earthquake? Has there been a global flood since it was first written?

So says the nonHaitian. :faint:

 

[joea]

Etymologically interesting:clap, yet words are crazy. Did you know that à la mode means "in the fashion." Indeed.

The linguistic is not that important.... but the divine is hidden in all of us.

 

[Rakhel]

I am wasting my time

 

[Beaudreaux]

I wish you would lay out your problems with the argument instead of just saying there is no substantiation to the claim.

Tell you what. I will totally concede that you are right and I am wrong if you will give a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do.

Since this question and your answer to it are part of my substantiation of the claim, please don't respond by saying the claim is unsubstantiated. You and I are working on it right now. . I await your response.

Mestemia? Don't leave me hanging.

 

[McBell]

I wish you would lay out your problems with the argument instead of just saying there is no substantiation to the claim.

Tell you what. I will totally concede that you are right and I am wrong if you will give a single example of how a human being could possibly do anything that an omniscient God didn't already know they would do.

Since this question and your answer to it are part of my substantiation of the claim, please don't respond by saying the claim is unsubstantiated. You and I are working on it right now. . I await your response.

Mestemia? Don't leave me hanging.

My apologies.
I missed this.
Thank you for the heads up.

The problem is that you have completely failed to show how someones/somethings foreknowledge of a choice being made effects the ability of someone else making said choice.

How exactly does my knowing that my daughter will choose vanilla ice cream effect her ability to choose?
How does my knowing that my dog will choose to eat the steak left on the table remove his ability to make decisions?