what is the origin of sin/evil?

[McBell]

Well, then you're with me. We both agree that:

• A choice entails selectiing from more than one possible action in any given situation.
• God knows everything, so in any given situation, there can only ever be one possible action
• Therefore: If God knows everything, there is no such thing as "choice".

*sigh*
did god make you choose what he already knows you will choose?

 

[Beaudreaux]

*sigh*
did god make you choose what he already knows you will choose?

[sigh]
What difference does it make? Are you able to do anything but what He knows?

Maybe you think that the only way it would work is if you wanted to take action "A" and God telekenesised you into taking action "B" while you fought the influence all the way. That's not how it works. I am sure that it FEELS to you like you're making a choice, but it is logically impossible for you to do so if God knows your future.

 

[Abulafia]

[sigh]
What difference does it make? Are you able to do anything but what He knows?

Maybe you think that the only way it would work is if you wanted to take action "A" and God telekenesised you into taking action "B" while you fought the influence all the way. That's not how it works. I am sure that it FEELS to you like you're making a choice, but it is logically impossible for you to do so if God knows your future.

Well, what we are assuming is precognition....not true. God is omnipresent, witnessing all things at all times. He doesn't neccessarily know what you are going to do before you do it, he knows you as you do it, afterwards, and before. :sarcastic


That doesn't vitiate free-will, because he is also omniscient....thus you are able to chose from all imaginable scenari, possible in your situation....

Unless, of course, your computer decides to shut down on whim and delete the hour-long post you HAD been writing....:computer:

Now, then, on the other hand...since he is the prime mover, you do have no free will, but that's because of the previous fact....not because of omniscience.

 

[McBell]

[sigh]
What difference does it make? Are you able to do anything but what He knows?

Because his knowing doe snot mean that you have no choice.
It merely means he knows what you would choose.
Now perhaps if you were told what you were going to choose and could not make a differing decision, you might have a point.
But merely knowing what will be chosen doe snot effect the ability to choose.

Maybe you think that the only way it would work is if you wanted to take action "A" and God telekenesised you into taking action "B" while you fought the influence all the way. That's not how it works. I am sure that it FEELS to you like you're making a choice, but it is logically impossible for you to do so if God knows your future.

so every time I know the decision that some one will make, I have eliminated their free will?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Because his knowing doe snot mean that you have no choice.
It merely means he knows what you would choose.
Now perhaps if you were told what you were going to choose and could not make a differing decision, you might have a point.
But merely knowing what will be chosen doe snot effect the ability to choose.

You have already agreed that a choice is impossible. A choice is a selection from more than one option. You have already stated that it is impossible for me to do something God did not foreknow. In any given situation God knows the one thing I will do, meaning that there is only one thing I CAN do. That means there can be no choice. I thought we were in agreement on this.

so every time I know the decision that some one will make, I have eliminated their free will?

If you "know" the way God knows (with complete infallibility) then yes.

 

[Beaudreaux]

So, given that free will is an illusion with an omniscient God, it is clear that God is ultimately the origin of sin and evil.

 

[McBell]

You have already agreed that a choice is impossible.

I did not such thing and I would appreciate that you stop making such false claims.

A choice is a selection from more than one option. You have already stated that it is impossible for me to do something God did not foreknow. In any given situation God knows the one thing I will do, meaning that there is only one thing I CAN do. That means there can be no choice. I thought we were in agreement on this.

No, I agreed that if an all knowing god knows what you will choose that that is what you will choose.
You have assumed that that means you have no choice in the matter.
Problem is that you have not shown that gods foreknowledge negates your ability to choose.
so no, I have not agreed to your unsubstantiated claim that foreknowledge negates the ability to choose.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I did not such thing and I would appreciate that you stop making such false claims.

1. A choice involves selecting from more than one possible option
2. You freely admit that, since God knows all, there can NEVER be more than one possible option

Please tell me which of the two statements you disagree with and i will apologize.

 

[idea]

Originally Posted by idea;
God knows everything, but He does not cause everything. Knowing, and causing are 2 different things... I can look and see what will be on TV tonight, but that doesn't mean that I caused it....

We are our own cause.

It makes no difference practically. If God knows what you will do tomorrow, and he is infallible, then you WILL do what God knows and it is impossible for you to do anything else.

We act out of our own free will. We are here proving to ourselves who we are, we aren't proving anything to God. You have to actually do the act, to prove to yourself that you are capable of doing it... like murder - "I thought about killing him, but I would never actually do it"... vs. ..."yes, you would do it, see, you did it!"... we have to actually do this stuff, the good and the bad, to reveal ourselves.

 

[idea]

1. A choice involves selecting from more than one possible option
2. You freely admit that, since God knows all, there can NEVER be more than one possible option

Please tell me which of the two statements you disagree with and i will apologize.

The future is set in stone, but we still have free will. The point of free will is not if the future is set in stone - it is who sets it in stone. We set our own future in stone - we are who we are, we make our own beds, therefore it is our will.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The future is set in stone, but we still have free will. The point of free will is not if the future is set in stone - it is who sets it in stone. We set our own future in stone - we are who we are, we make our own beds, therefore it is our will.

It is logically impossible for us to set our future in stone, since it is impossible for us to do somthing before it happens.

If the future is set in stone, as it would be if there were an omniscient God, then options and choice are illusions.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

from:
Did God create out of nothing - by Jamie Turner - Helium
" The Hebrew word “bara” which has been translated into the English languages as “create” actually means to shape or transform. Consider Isaiah 45:7 in which “bara” has been incorrectly translated in the King James Bible as “create”.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The Lord does not “create” evil and darkness; for we know that “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” – 1 John 1:5. God “transforms” evil and darkness into light and peace. Here is the same verse in which “bara” is translated correctly.
Isaiah 45:7 I transform darkness into light, I make peace, and transform evil, I the Lord do all these things.
God is a being who is able to transform that which eternally exists. He is not the hypocritical author of an imperfect creation. God is selflessly cleaning up a mess He did not make. It is “the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” – Rom 8:15. Adoption is the process in which someone takes responsibility for a child they did not create. "

According to Isaiah 40v26 God did not create out of nothing.
God supplied the needed dynamic energy to create.

In Scripture evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing.
Evil in scripture can be synonymous with calamity.
The Flood was a necessary evil or calamity to protect the upright.
This will also be true in the future as Proverbs 2vs21,22 shows that the upright remain.- Psalm 92v7

Hope the ^above^ is of some help

 

[Abulafia]

It is logically impossible for us to set our future in stone, since it is impossible for us to do somthing before it happens.

If the future is set in stone, as it would be if there were an omniscient God, then options and choice are illusions.

F'htang!

What you are assuming is God's omniscience as a form of precognition, narrowing our will to strictures, vitiating the will itself. Not so. God is also omnipresent, so there is no need for precognition, because he witnesses you before you do something, as you do something and after. Precognition to the omnipresent would be like someone riding a bike 500 miles, when they have a jet. Redundant, illogical, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

if god created "the devil" the source of all evil
the devil is doing exactly what the creator programmed him/it to be

Devil means slanderer
Satan means resister

Satan the Devil was created as perfect angel as were all of the other angels.
Satan turned himself in the Devil by being drawn out by his own desire.
Compare James 1vs13-15.

Satan nor Adam were programmed robots otherwise they would not have been given the gift of a free moral will with the ability to choose.
What does Deut 32v5 say about people?_______
This would also be true of Satan. [Ezekiel 28vs13-15]
The people of 1st Kings 18v21 were given a choice as were those of Deut 30v19. Satan was supposed to be the covering cherub or overseer in Eden keeping Adam and Eve safe, instead Satan chose that A&E should worship him.

Satan thinks that about us also. See Job 2v4.
By saying: 'a' man implies all of us are involved in his challenge.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

• Therefore: If God knows everything, there is no such thing as "choice".

By God giving us the gift of a 'free moral will' to all in heaven and earth, then God chooses not to know everything about what choices an angel or a person might make.

God did not design us as robots. He lets us know what he expects in the way of obedience to him and the consequences of disobedience.

We can choose between what God says is right or wrong.
Or, we can be like Satan and Adam and choose what we believe is right or wrong for ourselves disregarding what God considers good and bad.

 

[Beaudreaux]

[/list] By God giving us the gift of a 'free moral will' to all in heaven and earth, then God chooses not to know everything about what choices an angel or a person might make.

God did not design us as robots. He lets us know what he expects in the way of obedience to him and the consequences of disobedience.

We can choose between what God says is right or wrong.
Or, we can be like Satan and Adam and choose what we believe is right or wrong for ourselves disregarding what God considers good and bad.

So, you are saying God COULD know our every future action, but chooses not to?

 

[idea]

It is logically impossible for us to set our future in stone, since it is impossible for us to do somthing before it happens.

we live in a world of cause and effect, everything that happens was caused by something else. All that will happen in the future is a result of what is happening right now...

the trick is, we have no beginning - no beginning to trace all the cause/effects back to - we have only our own eternal nature to trace everything back to...

I think time is a bit of an illusion... the past, present, and future are all wrapped up in each moment.. see:
Laplace's demon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Laplace's Demon - an entity who knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe can use deterministic principles to reveal the entire course of cosmic events, past and future...

or this:
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a commonly assumed tenet of science—that in principle complete information about a physical system at one point in time should determine its state at any other time...


time does not really exist, one day we will be able to step out of time, and then we will see everything for what it is - not what it was, or what it will be - but what it was/is/will be - always was, and always will be - the unchanging eternal entity that we are..

are we able to grow? progress? if so, what we will become is created by what we were... time reveals who we are, but it does not change who we are... who we are determines what we will be/ what we were... who we are - our agency - determines what actions we take... our actions are as predictable as an apple falling to the ground, predicatble yes, set in stone, yes... but the apple falls because of who it is - it is not an airplane, not a hot air balloon, it is not a leaf that can blow away in the wind, it is an apple with weight and smooth skin that does not resist gravity... but then the apple does not know what it is until it actually falls "I won't fall!"... the only way to convince apples of what they are, is to let them fall...

 

[idea]

[/list]God did not design us as robots.

the difference betwen robots, and beings with free will, is robots have a beginning.

That which has a beginning, has no free will. If it has a beginning, everything it does can be traced back through the cause/effect net to how it was created.

Our agency is proof that we have no beginning...

God is cleaning up a mess He did not make..

(Old Testament | Isaiah64:8)
O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

the potter did not make the clay, He transforms what eternally exists - that is, if our nature is moldable, and if we allow Him to transform us...

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Oh. I see. Since this thread is about origins, did someone/something create cerebral cognition?

Hello again,
To save us going in circles; what you're really asking is whether I believe someone/something created physical existence, right?

I view physicality as the result of the Absolute entering self-awareness. This I believe, occurs when "singularia" [+/-0] - for reasons I do not yet know - divides into random data ("Chaos") and consciousness (what I at times refer to as "The It"). The process of separation can also be compared to the Big Bang of astronomy.

"Chaos" contains the basis for all that can be [physical]. In trying to understand Chaos and its own relation to it, The It now composes [different sets of] theoretical laws of physicality, by which to arrange Chaos by. What emerges at this point and unfolds from then onwards, is existence according to chosen order (i.e. our Universe's 4 laws of physics).

So, if one calls existence a "something"/"someone", then my answer to your question above is, yes.

 

[Beaudreaux]

we live in a world of cause and effect, everything that happens was caused by something else. All that will happen in the future is a result of what is happening right now...

the trick is, we have no beginning - no beginning to trace all the cause/effects back to - we have only our own eternal nature to trace everything back to...

I think time is a bit of an illusion... the past, present, and future are all wrapped up in each moment..

If time does not exist then free will cannot exist because all choices are time bound. In fact, free will, if it exists, describes the way we move through time; making unhindered decisions at each temporal juncture. You cannot define free will without using time.