What is the Point of Hell?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then, again, what is the point of hell?

Hell came about as a natural consequence of imperfection in the spiritual realm. It came into existence when the Angels revolted and were kicked out of Heaven. Nothing imperfect/impure can be in the presence of God so it pretty much automatically results in a separation.

A loving God would allow them the gift of being deleted from existence

Actually, it's due to God's loving nature that they aren't taken from existence, since love is God's sustaining creative power. In order for a soul to be removed from existence, that would mean that God has stopped loving them and that is contrary to His nature.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And yet, ironically, so horribly limited to the Middle East until the Holy Roman Empire, and to this day still limited to logical fallacies and human fancy.

Have anything else to contribute besides off-topic snarky comments?

 

[rusra02]

If you believe in hell, especially if you believe it is eternal, what is its purpose? A person may learn by punishment that what they did was wrong, but it hardly makes a difference if this punishment is never ending. Once in hell, there's no need to worry about them sinning any longer, their sin will no longer have effect on the innocent.

I've also heard that hell is to keep the sinners out of heaven, causing chaos. If that were truly the case, why not delete their soul from existence instead of making them suffer? Or perhaps isolate them from the rest of heaven? Perhaps even have them reincarnate until they get it right...

To me it seems rather harsh and pointless.

I, and more importantly the Bible, agree with you. Hellfire is a pagan teaching that is not taught in the Bible. Matthew 10:28 says: "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Gehenna is a symbol of everlasting destruction, wrongly translated "hell" in some translations.)

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Have anything else to contribute besides off-topic snarky comments?

Any arguments I could give have either been ignored or met with obfuscation. If it weren't for snark this thread wouldn't have anything keeping it going.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Any arguments I could give have either been ignored or met with obfuscation. If it weren't for snark this thread wouldn't have anything keeping it going.

Well, I'm sorry that your arguments aren't being answered.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Hell came about as a natural consequence of imperfection in the spiritual realm. It came into existence when the Angels revolted and were kicked out of Heaven. Nothing imperfect/impure can be in the presence of God so it pretty much automatically results in a separation.

That's an alright take. Not all hold the same views though, but I do appreciate you sharing this view

Actually, it's due to God's loving nature that they aren't taken from existence, since love is God's sustaining creative power. In order for a soul to be removed from existence, that would mean that God has stopped loving them and that is contrary to His nature.

I'm sure most would agree that the lack of existence would be preferred over eternal suffering.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's an alright take. Not all hold the same views though, but I do appreciate you sharing this view

You're welcome. I think it's helpful to keep in mind that hell is first and foremost a state, rather than a place. What torments result from it are a result of being removed from God, Who is the source of all good. This popular idea that hell is a fiery pit where sinners are tortured by demons is not what it really is. There's no demons poking you with pitchforks or whatever.

I'm sure most would agree that the lack of existence would be preferred over eternal suffering.

I personally leave the possibility open for universal reconciliation. But even if it is eternal at least for some, it's due to their own choices. They have basically murdered their own soul. But I try to have hope for everyone.

 

[adi2d]

There is no direct verse in the scriptures which says that someone will end up totally alone for eternity, but I think these (Matthew 18:12; 22:13; 25:30) that use the terminology "outer darkness" reveal a sense of the loneliness of an eternal state separated form God. Along with that, the message of the scriptures is the need for humans to love God with all their hearts, mind, soul, and strength and love their neighbor as themselves. I believe it is this loving God and others before self which brings wholeness because that is how we were originally created to function and find satisfaction. So my perspective is that when a person refuses to be in a loving relationship with their Creator, but rather clings to self and sin, then that is what they will end up with forever and it will be a very lonely, tormenting place to spend eternity with no one else, all alone, by yourself.

Many people that don't believe in your God are good people that love their neighbor and don't "cling to sin and self"

so it seems that the completely alone is something you made up. Ok. Thanks for the clarification

 

[InChrist]

Many people that don't believe in your God are good people that love their neighbor and don't "cling to sin and self"

so it seems that the completely alone is something you made up. Ok. Thanks for the clarification

I think "good" is a relative term by human definition and we as humans like to think that if we don't murder or steal and are nice to our neighbors then we are good people. We easily ignore or rationalize the many wrong things we do and write them off as trivial. But the standard of "good'' as given in the scriptures is God's perfection and holiness, which means that any little wrong we do is really a very big issue that impacts God, others, and ourselves whether we see it that way or not.

So my perspective is that if a person is not willing to be changed and made perfect to exist in the new heaven and new earth with God and others then they will end up with only themselves for eternity. As you say many don't believe in God, that doesn't mean I'm just making this up or that it isn't true. It only means that some people don't believe it to be true. Whether it is true or not is another matter.

 

[adi2d]

I think "good" is a relative term by human definition and we as humans like to think that if we don't murder or steal and are nice to our neighbors then we are good people. We easily ignore or rationalize the many wrong things we do and write them off as trivial. But the standard of "good'' as given in the scriptures is God's perfection and holiness, which means that any little wrong we do is really a very big issue that impacts God, others, and ourselves whether we see it that way or not.

So my perspective is that if a person is not willing to be changed and made perfect to exist in the new heaven and new earth with God and others then they will end up with only themselves for eternity. As you say many don't believe in God, that doesn't mean I'm just making this up or that it isn't true. It only means that some people don't believe it to be true. Whether it is true or not is another matter.

All any of us can do is the best we can. No one (not even a Christian) is perfect. No one follows all those rules all the time. I don't think any one can make themselves believe. That iswhy I ask questions. You brought up the idea of a. Persoal hell. You admit there is nothing in scripture that says this. You say you didn't make it up. Why do you believe this? Did someone tell you? Do you have evidence?

And,yes, many people believe there is a God. Doesn't make them right either


I M H O. Of course

 

[Desert Snake]

I think "good" is a relative term by human definition and we as humans like to think that if we don't murder or steal and are nice to our neighbors then we are good people. We easily ignore or rationalize the many wrong things we do and write them off as trivial. But the standard of "good'' as given in the scriptures is God's perfection and holiness, which means that any little wrong we do is really a very big issue that impacts God, others, and ourselves whether we see it that way or not.

So my perspective is that if a person is not willing to be changed and made perfect to exist in the new heaven and new earth with God and others then they will end up with only themselves for eternity. As you say many don't believe in God, that doesn't mean I'm just making this up or that it isn't true. It only means that some people don't believe it to be true. Whether it is true or not is another matter.

No one is perfect, sorry. Luckily we don't have to be because Jesus died for our sins. /And was resurrected/.

cheers,
praise Jesus
-disciple

 

[InChrist]

It is very true and I am in total agreement with anyone who says no one is perfect because we do all fall short and violate God's standards. This is exactly the reason I believe God took steps to remedy our situation and lack of perfection through the payment of the penalty for our sins by Jesus Christ and by accounting His righteousness and perfection to anyone who trusts in Him. I believe when someone has their sins cleansed and their life made new in Christ's perfection then they are at peace with their Creator and need have no doubts about eternity.

 

[Nooj]

Yep. Eternal is endless in time, and infinite is endless in quantity.

like i said, i think of eternal as non-temporal. not 'in time' at all.

as my homie wittgenstein once said:

Wenn man unter Ewigkeit nicht unendliche Zeitdauer, sondern Unzeitlichkeit versteht, dann kann man sagen, daß der ewig lebt, der in der Gegenwart lebt.

if one understands eternity not as infinite duration but non-temporality, then one can say that he lives eternally who lives in the present.

 

[Hawkins]

From the design perspective, humans are designed to live an eternity. A creator will not compromise his design purpose for the unqualified. You don't mix intended products together with the unwanted residues. That's why everyone will have to live an eternity, and with the 'unqualified' separated.

Why not delete the "unqualified". Which means you need God's mercy and grace to spare you from your eternity. Is it lawful for God to do the deletion? He ever said the oath in His anger that "you can never enter my rest". Plus that He also ever said that Jesus is the only way for His grace to be granted to humans. That is to say, it is against His oath, it is against His law and covenant to do so.

On the other hand, you need at least repent your deeds in order for God to spare you from that situation. No one knows if you will still be a sane man in hell to do so. No one ever knows one's own future, especially in a completely 'new' environment such as a complete separation from God. Perhaps one will be insane shortly when put in that environment and becomes a sin machine. Perhaps only a fire can call them back for a repentance. If even a fire fails to do so, then perhaps that fire persists. We don't know for now and we can't know for now.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Something just crossed my mind.

If hell is simply the absence of God, then how can God be omnipresent if he is absent?

 

[InChrist]

Something just crossed my mind.

If hell is simply the absence of God, then how can God be omnipresent if he is absent?

That is quite a thought...

"Jesus is spoken of in the book of Revelation as the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." and Peter writes, "You know that your were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake." (1 Peter 1:18-20)

Without in any way diminishing the work of Christ on the cross as finished, completed, and accomplished in space-time and in history, it is possible to say that a part of God suffers eternally for man's sins. From Scripture we learn that a holy God must ultimately be just. He must remove evil from His presence. Those who have permanently rebelled against His gracious mercy do not cease to exist but remain eternally conscious in a place of everlasting, endless punishment. Since God is omnipresent, He, too, is to be found in hell, sustaining its fires and experiencing its pains. Bible scholar Ray C. Stedman once remarked, "Ultimately, God removes evil from the universe by absorbing it into Himself." The so-called "penal view of the atonement" specifies that a Just God must punish sin and that if Christ suffered our punishment as a substitute He had to bear the full weight of the eternal separation from God that Divine Justice demands and we deserve. In his commentary on the Book of Revelation, Stedman wrote,

"All through the Bible we see God's love is manifest to men and women everywhere in urging them to escape this judgment. God in love pleads with people, 'Do not go on to this end!' But ultimately he must judge those who refuse his offer of grace. He says, in effect, 'I love you and I can provide all you need. Therefore love me, and you will find the fulfillment your heart is looking for.' But many men and women say, 'No, I do not want that. I will take your gifts, I will take all the good things you provide, but I do not want you! Let me run my own life. Let me serve my own ends. Let me have my own kingdom.' To such, God ultimately says, 'All right, have it your way!' God has three choices: first, he can let rebellion go on forever and never judge it. In that case the terrible things that are happening on earth, all these distressing injustices, the cruelty, the anger, the hate, the malice, the sorrow, the hurt, the pain, the death that now prevails, must go on forever. God does not want that, and neither does man. Second, God can force men to obey him and control them as robots. But he will never do that because that means they cannot truly love him. Love cannot be forced. Therefore, third, the only choice God really has is that he must withdraw ultimately from those who refuse his love. He must let them have their own way forever. That results in the terrible torment of godlessness. If God is necessary to us, then to take him out of our lives is to plunge us into the most terrible sense of loneliness and abandonment that mankind can know. We have all experienced it to some small degree when we get what we want and then discover we do not want what we got! For that sense of bored emptiness to go on forever, is unspeakable torment."


excerpt from:On Everlasting Destruction


http://http://www.ldolphin.org/hell.html
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