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What is the Point of Hell?

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
So what do you think? Should "LOVE' allow evil and sin to continue existing, growing, spreading, and causing harm and damage forever?

I think one has to make quite a logical leap to go from rejecting eternal suffering to believing that doing so necessarily entails allowing "evil" or "sin" (by which you mean undesirable/negative things, I assume) to continue existing or spreading.

• If the supernatural entity in question has the ability to create a place of unimaginable suffering as well as a place of unimaginable bliss for certain people to eternally abide in, then I don't see why it is unreasonable to ask why that entity doesn't prevent evil and sin from occurring in the first place. Why go through that extra step of setting up a vast, detailed realm of suffering as a deterrent to "sin" when any undesirable action can be prevented without breaking a sweat? It seems to me that the purpose of eternal suffering wouldn't be rehabilitation or prevention of harm; it would be revenge.

• I think the idea that eternal suffering exists to prevent evil, sin, etc., from spreading contradicts itself, at least in the more common Christian versions thereof. All of the descriptions of eternal suffering I have read and/or heard about tend to involve judgment of people after they have committed actions that are perceived to be undesirable, such as harming another person. Those descriptions also tend to emphasize the helplessness of the people being judged, so it's clear that they can't cause further harm or "sin" anymore.

Put differently, who is being protected when everyone will supposedly be facing their final judgment where nothing will affect them except an omnipotent deity's will? And what is being prevented when everyone will supposedly be helpless and at the mercy of an entity that is infinitely more powerful than them? As I said above, I think that such concepts describe punishment whose purpose is revenge rather than anything else.

• Even if we assume that suffering in a lake of fire or any other place of torment is necessary to prevent harm, that still doesn't explain why it would have to be eternal. Why shouldn't "evildoers" be made to become permanently nonexistent, for example, or even be punished for a period of time before being transferred to a place of bliss or at least being made nonexistent? The imposition of an everlasting penalty on them doesn't seem to make more sense as a method of punishment or reformation than the employment of a temporary penalty to that end.

Considering the time period in which the Bible was written, I think most of the grotesque and vivid descriptions of suffering, fire, torment, etc., were primarily inspired by tribalism and sectarian zeal rather than any sort of revelation or divine guidance. I also find it disappointing if not downright scary that so many people still adhere to beliefs that teach that it is perfectly acceptable to see someone else experiencing unimaginable pain, know that they will be in it for eternity, and be happy about it and even view it as a sign of a particular deity's power or glory. That's one of the areas in which I think humanity still has a lot of progress to make.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Although we have different views, I appreciate the thoughts and questions you have expressed because I sense they are motivated by true concern and sincerity. I will attempt to respond the best I can with my sincere perspective, also.


I think one has to make quite a logical leap to go from rejecting eternal suffering to believing that doing so necessarily entails allowing "evil" or "sin" (by which you mean undesirable/negative things, I assume) to continue existing or spreading.

I don’t think it is a leap at all with an accurate understanding or biblical perspective of God, human nature, and eternal spiritual realm as presented in the scriptures, which maybe I can elaborate on further as I respond to your points and questions.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
• If the supernatural entity in question has the ability to create a place of unimaginable suffering as well as a place of unimaginable bliss for certain people to eternally abide in, then I don't see why it is unreasonable to ask why that entity doesn't prevent evil and sin from occurring in the first place. Why go through that extra step of setting up a vast, detailed realm of suffering as a deterrent to "sin" when any undesirable action can be prevented without breaking a sweat? It seems to me that the purpose of eternal suffering wouldn't be rehabilitation or prevention of harm; it would be revenge.

I would like to first reiterate that the scriptures clearly say that the lake of fire was not created for humans, but for satan and demons. Humans end up there by default for choosing to cling to sin aligning with satan rather than God. Secondly, this destination was not “created as a place of unimaginable suffering”, it simply is a place of suffering because it is separate from all that is good and life-sustaining in the Presence of God. Do you understand the difference or what I am trying to say?

The scriptures indicate that God the Creator made humans in His own image. If, as you say, God should have prevented all evil and sin from occurring in the first place then He would have had to create humans as mere robots unable to willingly choose between right or wrong. In others words, we would not have a personal will and definitely would not have the image of God, but I believe His intention was that we should. Freedom by must allow for mistakes and/or sin and evil to happen. I don’t believe isolating evil is for the purpose of rehabilitation as those who end up in that destination have already chosen to become totally immersed in evil as their personal identity. For this reason they are isolated to prevent the spread of evil and harm of others throughout eternity. It has nothing to do with revenge since everyone was offered the alternative.




• I think the idea that eternal suffering exists to prevent evil, sin, etc., from spreading contradicts itself, at least in the more common Christian versions thereof. All of the descriptions of eternal suffering I have read and/or heard about tend to involve judgment of people after they have committed actions that are perceived to be undesirable, such as harming another person. Those descriptions also tend to emphasize the helplessness of the people being judged, so it's clear that they can't cause further harm or "sin" anymore.
Which descriptions are you referring to? I don’t quite understand what you are saying, since I basically agree that once a person is judged they are then restricted and can no longer harm others due to their separation from God and those who belong to Him.



Put differently, who is being protected when everyone will supposedly be facing their final judgment where nothing will affect them except an omnipotent deity's will? And what is being prevented when everyone will supposedly be helpless and at the mercy of an entity that is infinitely more powerful than them? As I said above, I think that such concepts describe punishment whose purpose is revenge rather than anything else.
[FONT=&quot]Not everyone will face the final judgment referred to in Revelation. The millions and millions who want to live peace with God are not under judgment and are free to live in God’s love, peace, and joy. These would greatly be negatively affected if those who choose to perpetuate sin were free to do so forever. Therefore the need of separation, It is obviously not revenge since again the option of eternal freedom, perfection, peace and joy is offered to everyone.


[/FONT]
 

InChrist

Free4ever
• Even if we assume that suffering in a lake of fire or any other place of torment is necessary to prevent harm, that still doesn't explain why it would have to be eternal. Why shouldn't "evildoers" be made to become permanently nonexistent, for example, or even be punished for a period of time before being transferred to a place of bliss or at least being made nonexistent? The imposition of an everlasting penalty on them doesn't seem to make more sense as a method of punishment or reformation than the employment of a temporary penalty to that end.

I believe it is eternal because as beings created in God’s image we are eternal, therefore our destiny is eternal... whether heavenly joy or separation /suffering. I don’t believe the human spirit once created can ever be terminated or made non-existent. I don’t see it as a penalty which is eternal, rather the choice the person makes. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression ...his mind is made up. Those who end up in the state of suffering being eternally separated from God are those who have made up their minds that they never ever want anything to do with God.




Considering the time period in which the Bible was written, I think most of the grotesque and vivid descriptions of suffering, fire, torment, etc., were primarily inspired by tribalism and sectarian zeal rather than any sort of revelation or divine guidance. I also find it disappointing if not downright scary that so many people still adhere to beliefs that teach that it is perfectly acceptable to see someone else experiencing unimaginable pain, know that they will be in it for eternity, and be happy about it and even view it as a sign of a particular deity's power or glory. That's one of the areas in which I think humanity still has a lot of progress to make.
[/quote]

It was Jesus who spoke most about of the torments of hell. Why? I’d say because He was the Savior and He understood the awful suffering entailed for the creature to be separated from the life-giving Creator. This is what He came to save people from. No one I know thinks it’s perfectly acceptable or are happy to think that others will suffer for eternity. Why do you think those who know Christ share the gospel with others?

The difference between your perspective and mine is that you see hell or eternal suffering as something God causes and I see it as something which results because the reality is that existing in a state of separation from God is unbearable suffering. Yet, some people simply refuse to live in peace with God no matter how self destructive it is.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Just curious: If hell wasn't created to be a place of total suffering, just separation from God. And if people who rejected God in this life were the ones who go there. Why is their life not as bad as hell?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Just curious: If hell wasn't created to be a place of total suffering, just separation from God. And if people who rejected God in this life were the ones who go there. Why is their life not as bad as hell?

I don't think you understand or grasp the gravity of the message Jesus was teaching about hell and how important to avoid that destiny. It's not... 'just" separation from God. Separation from God, who is the only source of all that is goodness, joy, peace and any other positive quality you can imagine, will be an awful, empty, tormenting, and endlessly lonely place to be. Imagine being absolutely and completely alone forever and ever.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Just curious: If hell wasn't created to be a place of total suffering, just separation from God. And if people who rejected God in this life were the ones who go there. Why is their life not as bad as hell?

I don't think I answered the question completely. Those who reject God now and are still alive are not living a life as bad as hell because they are still here on earth and we are in the age of grace at present.
 

adi2d

Active Member
I don't think you understand or grasp the gravity of the message Jesus was teaching about hell and how important to avoid that destiny. It's not... 'just" separation from God. Separation from God, who is the only source of all that is goodness, joy, peace and any other positive quality you can imagine, will be an awful, empty, tormenting, and endlessly lonely place to be. Imagine being absolutely and completely alone forever and ever.


Can you source that for me? Separation from God I have read. Where does it say people in hell will be alone absolutely abd completely?


The only quote that comes to mind is "heaven for the weather. Hell for the company"
 
After doing much research about the subject of hell, I have come to understand that the origin of this teaching -----that the evil will suffer torment forever-----came from the ancient Egyptians and has infected many religions. After researching the Bible, I have concluded that there will be everlasting destruction for the wicked. The Bible's terms eternal fire and eternal punishment seem to be symbolic, meaning everlasting cutting off or death. This conclusions harmonizes with Jesus words in John 3:16.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Levels of Hell, 'purgatory etc.
Christianity has these things as well. I think it depends on the church or the individual as to what they believe.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If you believe in hell, especially if you believe it is eternal, what is its purpose? A person may learn by punishment that what they did was wrong, but it hardly makes a difference if this punishment is never ending. Once in hell, there's no need to worry about them sinning any longer, their sin will no longer have effect on the innocent.

I've also heard that hell is to keep the sinners out of heaven, causing chaos. If that were truly the case, why not delete their soul from existence instead of making them suffer? Or perhaps isolate them from the rest of heaven? Perhaps even have them reincarnate until they get it right...

To me it seems rather harsh and pointless.

I believe that is the point that they will be in a place where they can't do any harm and can't escape to do harm.

I believe it is impossible to cause chaos in Heaven and certainly they would be welcome but my guess is that it would be anathema to them to hae to be good al the time.

God still loves them.

I don't believe there is any better isolation than Hell. I suppose there is an element of punishment for sin.

I believe this occurs during a temporal age.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There are many in Judaism who believe in precisely what you said.

a) that it is not eternal, and eventually leads to heaven.
b) that many reincarnate to give them another (sometimes multiple) chance.
c) it is seen more as a cleansing place, rather than a place where we are destined to suffer forever.

I believe this would be my understanding as well except that I don't have as optimimistic a view about Hell leading a person to Heaven.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Just curious: If hell wasn't created to be a place of total suffering, just separation from God. And if people who rejected God in this life were the ones who go there. Why is their life not as bad as hell?

If you ask me those who are evil really enjoy evil so more evil in Hell is just a joy ride for them. If one wanted to make one of these people suffer send him to Heaven where only good exists and he would be in torment but God is not that cruel, I believe.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that is the point that they will be in a place where they can't do any harm and can't escape to do harm.

There are so many nicer ways to go about that goal.

I believe it is impossible to cause chaos in Heaven and certainly they would be welcome but my guess is that it would be anathema to them to hae to be good al the time.

Then, again, what is the point of hell?

God still loves them.

A loving God would allow them the gift of being deleted from existence, compared to making them be tortured for an eternity.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Can you source that for me? Separation from God I have read. Where does it say people in hell will be alone absolutely abd completely?


The only quote that comes to mind is "heaven for the weather. Hell for the company"


There is no direct verse in the scriptures which says that someone will end up totally alone for eternity, but I think these (Matthew 18:12; 22:13; 25:30) that use the terminology "outer darkness" reveal a sense of the loneliness of an eternal state separated form God. Along with that, the message of the scriptures is the need for humans to love God with all their hearts, mind, soul, and strength and love their neighbor as themselves. I believe it is this loving God and others before self which brings wholeness because that is how we were originally created to function and find satisfaction. So my perspective is that when a person refuses to be in a loving relationship with their Creator, but rather clings to self and sin, then that is what they will end up with forever and it will be a very lonely, tormenting place to spend eternity with no one else, all alone, by yourself.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I believe a loving God created humans in His image so we are eternal, therefore our destiny is eternal... whether heavenly joy or separation /suffering. I don’t believe the human spirit once created can ever be terminated, deleted, or made non-existent. One's eternal torment is brought upon themselves by their refusing to live in peace and unity with their Creator as the were created to do.
 
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