What is the punishment for converting from Islam?

[Woodrow LI]

On one level I think you're right. But if one Muslim kills another and says it's because of apostasy, are you not being bigoted to say that you don't believe his reason?

The same could be said if a Muslim jumped from the top of the empire State Building because he sincerly believed he could fly. It is his own fault when he lands on his pumpkin head.

While I have no doubt if a person kills an apostate he sincerely believes he is commanded to. However, I believe he is accountable for an act of murder because he did not verify the truth of his belief. He had failed to search to see if at any point it is forbidden to do so.

 

[Estro Felino]

Disrespect is when you lie about a fact that is very clear, and proven, when you know the real events and facts.

Lies?
okay, then I say that the prophet was a chaste pure man who has never killed anyone.
are you happy, now?

because that's what you want people to say

 

[icehorse]

The same could be said if a Muslim jumped from the top of the empire State Building because he sincerly believed he could fly. It is his own fault when he lands on his pumpkin head.

While I have no doubt if a person kills an apostate he sincerely believes he is commanded to. However, I believe he is accountable for an act of murder because he did not verify the truth of his belief. He had failed to search to see if at any point it is forbidden to do so.

But how do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that the killer's is the wrong one?

 

[Woodrow LI]

But how do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that the killer's is the wrong one?

We each can only present our reasons. It is our own resposibility to always investigate all views and not believe anything is true unless we our self has found reason to believe it is true. No one is going to tell us what is true, a person can only say what they believe is true and give their reason for believing such.

Islam is not about rules and commands, it is about personal responsibility and to always question.

We each have the obligation to know what our choices are and to learn what the consequences of our choice will be before we do it.

 

[icehorse]

We each can only present our reasons. It is our own resposibility to always investigate all views and not believe anything is true unless we our self has found reason to believe it is true. No one is going to tell us what is true, a person can only say what they believe is true and give their reason for believing such.

Islam is not about rules and commands, it is about personal responsibility and to always question.

We each have the obligation to know what our choices are and to learn what the consequences of our choice will be before we do it.

Well I much prefer your flavor than the other flavors I usually hear about - good on ya!

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

It bothers me because she is lying, clear lies, this is not criticism, it’s as if I say that Jesus worshiped idols and mas murdered population.



You can criticize Islam as much as you want, and I will respect you, but when you lie about the prophet life and the holy Qur’an clear lies not even mentioning that this is from the folowing scholar or history book, how can you expect me to respect this.



Again this kind of speeches full of twisting and lies are much disrespected, however they should not be punished by any means since they are just words not including summoning for any military act.


Regards

Mahmoud

When we talk aboutthe life of Muhammadisafabrication ofthe Christiansorinfidels???
1. marriage of Safiya Bint huyai
2. the marriage of Zaynab Bint jahsh
3. chill-revelations and failures
4. premature and advocacy role of Mohammedia
5. marriage of 13
7. fun girl
8. the pious in Islam
9. the dhimmi in Islam
10. Jihad in Islam
11. What is the meaning of the (Queens right)
12. why fights Muhammad the Jews and Christians
13. Why Islam is the best religion
14. Why allow a Muslim man marrying a non-others
And no other Muslim marriage
15. proof that the Quran is in Al-lawh Al-mahfooz
16-type Islamic paradise
17. What is the meaning of nymphs
18. why should God nymphs in a paradise of Islam
19. altghish and analysis
20. why women are missing the mind and religion
21.
What is the position ofMuhammadfrom killingprisonersof war
22. Why announce Mohamed accused of false to Christians
23. where Muhammad came to novel Christmas
24. why God trumps his words
25. What is the meaning of the burner and copied in the Qur'an
26. who is Joseph in the Quran
27. would you be able to explain the story of Joseph in the Quran
Without reference to the biblical origin
28. What is the meaning of the verse that you doubt which we you ask who يقراؤءن the book from you??
Who are these???
29. why the contradiction in the Qur'an
30. the decrees of pilgrimage and worship the black stone??
And there are more
Do I speak of your book
Orfromoutside
And each paragraph have a long explanation
SoIslammust beputin thestandardcriticism
With courage
The Muslim mother thinks

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

[QUOTE="Woodrow LI, post: 4081448, member: 32479"
Islam is not about rules and commands, it is about personal responsibility and to always question.

Islam is a set of commands
And the rules do not allow you to break them
There is no Islam without orders
You understand Islam are upside down

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I refuted some of the lies she said in the former post



What is the punishment for converting from Islam? | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com



I continue to clear up these fakes



She Said that the prophet invented Islam to preserve the Arabian culture in opposition to the Christian and Jewish Culture, This is a complete lie.

For more than 14 years the fight was only between the prophet and the Arabian pagans

The fight did not come to Jews until Jews betrayed the Muslims state, hence trying to murder the prophet, and trying to kill Muslims women ad children as illustrated before.

The fight did not come to Christians until the “Ghasasena” Killed the messenger of the prophet, then afterwards they along with the Byzatines prepared an army to conquer medina and kill all Muslims.

Islam came with a system that is against many crimes that had been constantly done in the Arabian culture.

So what was the origin of the fight between the prophet and the pagans?, to understand this we must understand the economic religious system of those pagans.

Pagans knew that Prophet Ibrahim “Abraham” with his son “Ismail” had built the Kabaa to worship God, They knew God the one the only which meant in the Arabic Language Allah. But with this they believed in many Sub-Gods or Idols, these were introduced to the Arabian culture after the death of Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail by many years. The Pagans believed that these Idols are the mediators between them and God.

But this is not the real reason why they fought the prophet, you see, after hundreds of years of worshipping Idols, the Idols around the Kabaa in Mecca were not just for worship, they were economical treaties, yes every Arabian tribe Idol around the kabaa was a treaty between “Quraish” and that particular tribe to secure the trade caravans of Quraish carrying goods and trade to Syria, Iraq, Palestine, in the north where the Byzantine Roman empire and the Persian Empire were, and to south to Yemen.

So then prophet Muhammad comes with a religion which worships Only God the one the only, and asks them to remove all these Idols first from their hearts then afterwards from around the Kabaa. His only request to them was “Khallo Baynee wa Bayn Alnas” which means”Kindly leave me talk to people, do not prevent people from hearing me”, but “Quraish” feared that if people started believing in Islam that eventually the population in Mecca which will become Muslim will ask to remove the Idols from around the Kabaa, thus destroying the guarantee for the “Quraish” trade caravans security.



So After 13 years of oppression to the Prophet and Muslims in Mekka, Pagan in “Yathreb”: Medina Most of them converted to Islam and agreed willingly to protect the Prophet and Muslims in their country where they formed the majority, Jews tribes were a minority in Medina. Still the Prophet did not oppress them, he signed with hem a treaty called “Sahefa” where they had all religious, cultural, and financial rights. But the Jews were the ones who betrayed this treaty as illustrated before.



Now we get to another lie she said regarding this issue, she said the first military battle between the prophet and Quraish was because the prophet wanted to steal their caravan, what a twist of facts.

The facts are as follows:

1- The about 200 Quraish Muslims in Mekka who immigrated to medina many of them were very wealthy, but Quraish forced them to leave all their money with Quraish leaders in order to allow them to immigrate. With this stolen money from Muslims Quraish prepared a Caravan to Trade with this stolen money and get profit. That was the caravan the prophet attacked.

See how she turns the victim who wants his stolen money back to be the oppressor.

2- Quraish refused to let the Arabian tribes listen to the prophet, even against the advice some of its own older politicians, hence it started to attack the new Muslims state with three wars.

3- When the Muslim state was strong enough to counter attack the prophet did not choose war, else he chose to sign a peace treaty with Quraish which was called “Alhudaybeya” Treaty at year 6 higri, and the holy Quran described this peace treaty as the great “Fath” which means the great opening, while even most Muslims did not understand why it’s an opening. But then they realized the wisdom of the Holy Qur’an and the prophet, Because by this peace treaty the Arabian tribes started listing to Muslims, and in only two years the Muslim numbers were Multiplied by 4.

4- Only when Quraish betrayed and violated this treaty by killing over 20 Muslims in Mekka, some even inside the Kabaa itself, then the prophet attacked Mekka, but even in this attack he managed to surprise them so as not to have to kill anyone, they surrendered and he pardoned them all.







Now we get to another lie she told, she said the prophet had 11 wives along with sex slaves thus implying that he was a sex obsessed person.



Here are the facts:



1- The first marriage of the prophet was with “Khadija”, he was 25 years old, she was 40 years old, he stayed with her without marring any other wife for 25 years till she died, he loved her very dearly.

2- Then for two years he did not mary anyone because he was in grieve by his los in “Khadija”.

3- Then he married Sawda who was old, he married her to honor her because her older husband died in Habasha.

4- Afterwards he Married Aisha who was the daughter of his dearest companion “Abu Bakr”, she had reached puberty, her age is debatable, opinions vary form 9 years old to 21 years old, that is because the Arabs did not concern of registering the age, keep in mind that they grew up much more sooner and earlier than girls of nowadays. While even nowadays some girls reach puberty and grow very early.

The prophet loved Aisha dearly; he even died in her arms.

5- All other marriages were either a humanitarian marriage to honor the widows of a Dead companion, or political marriages to fasten the relation between that particular tribe and the Medina State. All these marriages were in the last 8 years of his life while he was busy by Preaching, politics, defensive wars, etc.







Again this kind of speeches full of twisting and lies are much disrespected, however they should not be punished by any means since they are just words not including summoning for any military act.





Regards,

Mahmoud

Youturnall the facts
1. the Quraysh not idolatry as you think
Quraysh inMeccawasaclergyman
Named his son Naufal, a cousin of Muhammad and Khadija's cousin also
Alnsranet
InMecca
2. Mohammed learn from his son Naufal and the Nestorian monk bahira of
3. Mohammed was known to Christians
4. the Arabs of Najran were Christians
5. surat al-baqarah and Surat repentance is next to Muhammad with the delegation of Najran-Christian
6. the Jews in Medina
And yathrib and Taif
7. the Jews did not fight Muhammad
8. If you do not believe in the Hadith Muhammad
The hostility of the Jews to Muhammad is an Islamic fabrication
9. Jihad Sharia Medina
10. the first battle between the Muslim Arabs and Mohammed were motivated by robbery and loot
11. the spoils of war from the major imports of the Apostle in Medina
12. the Division of the spoils, a detailed and complete explanation in a Qur'anic texts
13. If the Apostle were not wars of aggression
Why allow own spoils of war??
The Division of the spoilsis one of the most importantreasons forthe rushfollowMohammedto war
14. booty not only stuff
But women and girls
And children
16. Safiya Bint huyai were trophies
War on the Jews, extermination
After the massacre of 500 people were
17. the Division of women and children as spoils of war to the Muslims
18. the wives of Muhammad talked about him so much abstract
I followed a man possessed 13 girl
Even if their status as novelties at home

 

[Woodrow LI]

[QUOTE="Woodrow LI, post: 4081448, member: 32479"
Islam is not about rules and commands, it is about personal responsibility and to always question.

Islam is a set of commands
And the rules do not allow you to break them
There is no Islam without orders
You understand Islam are upside down

Yes there are rules, but the rules are found in the Qur'an and Sunnah not the opinions of any central leader.
It is my responsibility to verify for myself all things I believe. There is no place in Islam for blind followers that do not seek proof of the truth in the words of any man.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Lies?
okay, then I say that the prophet was a chaste pure man who has never killed anyone.
are you happy, now?

because that's what you want people to say

Yes I would be pleased with you if you say that, not because you’re flattering Islam, but because you’ll be right.



Well If you want to talk about some issue either you’re:

1) An expert in it

2) Well Informed about it

3) Know something about it

4) Know nothing about



I could have very well respect her speech if she is in category 3 or 4, either she know something not the whole picture, or she knows nothing about the subject.

But she is in Category 1 or 2 then she decides to use her knowledge to make fakes and lies rational to the hearer

I concluded this because she herself said that she was raised in Egypt, and that she is well informed, every word she said she knew exactly that she was lying about it.



Well if I’m wrong and she is in category 3 or 4 meaning that she did not intend to lie, then I will immediately withdraw my disrespect for her speech.



To talk about the holy Qur’an and the prophet’s life you need to read or listen to the whole holy Qur’an and read or listen from an authentic source to the whole story of the prophet’s life, this is very easy, any educated Muslims can easily do this in less than a month, and he’ll know immediately what kind of lies a speech like hers imply.



Kindly differentiate between well know authentic history of the prophet’s life, and the afterwards 1400 years of Islamic History which has a number of views according to history books,

Here you’re talking about clear known facts about 63 years of a much known important person in history. And a book that has only about 400 pages and has hundreds of millions of copies which is the holy Qur’an.



Regards

Mahmoud

 

[Chev Chelios]

4- Afterwards he Married Aisha who was the daughter of his dearest companion “Abu Bakr”, she had reached puberty, her age is debatable, opinions vary form 9 years old to 21 years old, that is because the Arabs did not concern of registering the age, keep in mind that they grew up much more sooner and earlier than girls of nowadays. While even nowadays some girls reach puberty and grow very early.

The prophet loved Aisha dearly; he even died in her arms.

5- All other marriages were either a humanitarian marriage to honor the widows of a Dead companion, or political marriages to fasten the relation between that particular tribe and the Medina State. All these marriages were in the last 8 years of his life while he was busy by Preaching, politics, defensive wars, etc.

Aishas's age is debatable????? Opinions differ????? Erm - sorry pal but the source for her age as being UNDER 9 years old comes from your most AUTHENTIC and revered Hadith. If you reject your Sahih Hadith then fine - but that is you doing so at your own volition - however, you do not get to make up the rules of the faith unless this view was to predominate - and it certainly doesn't. We know that mainstream Islam evidently considers Sahih Hadith as profoundly important in unpacking the doctrine of Islam to enable its followers to accurately observe it - thus, unless you provide a better source I think it is abundantly fair for us to conclude that Aisha was indeed 8 years and 10 months old when Muhammad took advantage of her.

Interestingly you then go on to say that Aisha had reached puberty - well, first I'd like really to know your source for this because by all accounts we are told that she was playing with dolls when Muhammad came for her - again, this is in your Sahih Hadith. This is very imprortant to appreciate because if she had reached puberty she would NOT have been allowed to play with dolls - she did so because she was a child.

Now, the weakness and or barefaced lies of your arguments are really laid bare by your utterly absurd claim that girls matured faster in 650 AD! Your statement is at complete odds with the entire medical profession the world over, which in 2015 is complete agreement with the conclusion that girls are maturing faster than ever before NOW. If you disagree with this, as you appear to, then clearly it is not me you actually disagree with but them. Indeed, your argument seems to disregard the countless epidemiological data (many peer reviewed studies are online in very respected journals to get you started) gathered over the decades as well as medical experts the world over - such as those who belong to the American Academy of Paediatrics (see here Girls are Beginning Puberty at a Younger Age ) who I am sure would be illuminated by your skepticism. As a medical professional myself - that girls are maturing earlier than ever before has simply been established as a biological fact - a fact which governs much of how we care for female patients medically as well as emotionally from about the age of 10.

In short - Aisha WAS 8 years 10 months old when Muhammad abused her and in all likelihood she had not reached puberty when Muhammad abused her - not that reaching puberty matters because she was still 8 years 10 months old! And please don't spout your rubbish about it being normal to copulate with young girls back in the 7th century because, whilst this may have been true for the primitive culture at the time, the fact that Muhammad was being divinely guided by God, who's ethics and morality is eternal and who had selected Muhammad to be the most perfect example to be followed for ETERNITY - means that comparing the intentions of Gods and prophets to the fallible, poorly evolved ethics of man, is quite simply laughable. But then your comments generally are hilarious I must say.

You go on to say that all Muhammads marriages were just - well, we have just seen that this is not true however - please do explain to me the deeply disturbing circumstances surrounding Muhammad's mariage to Safiyah. For me, this story is at complete odds with the idea of consensual marriage because, and please correct me if I am wrong, but on the day he marries her hadn't he just killed her Father, her Husband, her family and pretty much her entire tribe? This woman's whole world had just been obliterated by, and on the orders of, one man - thus, I find it hard to believe that a woman would freely marry let alone have sex with that very man! And that she would do so on the exact same day this man had led and carried out this awful carnage absolutely beggers belief! But hey - Muhammad married her because she was now a widow right? Oh how nice and pleasent was the Prophet of Islam.

I stand by my assertion that Muhammad raped Safiyah and he abused a little girl.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Aishas's age is debatable????? Opinions differ????? Erm - sorry pal but the source for her age as being UNDER 9 years old comes from your most AUTHENTIC and revered Hadith. If you reject your Sahih Hadith then fine - but that is you doing so at your own volition - however, you do not get to make up the rules of the faith unless this view was to predominate - and it certainly doesn't. We know that mainstream Islam evidently considers Sahih Hadith as profoundly important in unpacking the doctrine of Islam to enable its followers to accurately observe it - thus, unless you provide a better source I think it is abundantly fair for us to conclude that Aisha was indeed 8 years and 10 months old when Muhammad took advantage of her.

Interestingly you then go on to say that Aisha had reached puberty - well, first I'd like really to know your source for this because by all accounts we are told that she was playing with dolls when Muhammad came for her - again, this is in your Sahih Hadith. This is very imprortant to appreciate because if she had reached puberty she would NOT have been allowed to play with dolls - she did so because she was a child.

Now, the weakness and or barefaced lies of your arguments are really laid bare by your utterly absurd claim that girls matured faster in 650 AD! Your statement is at complete odds with the entire medical profession the world over, which in 2015 is complete agreement with the conclusion that girls are maturing faster than ever before NOW. If you disagree with this, as you appear to, then clearly it is not me you actually disagree with but them. Indeed, your argument seems to disregard the countless epidemiological data (many peer reviewed studies are online in very respected journals to get you started) gathered over the decades as well as medical experts the world over - such as those who belong to the American Academy of Paediatrics (see here Girls are Beginning Puberty at a Younger Age ) who I am sure would be illuminated by your skepticism. As a medical professional myself - that girls are maturing earlier than ever before has simply been established as a biological fact - a fact which governs much of how we care for female patients medically as well as emotionally from about the age of 10.

In short - Aisha WAS 8 years 10 months old when Muhammad abused her and in all likelihood she had not reached puberty when Muhammad abused her - not that reaching puberty matters because she was still 8 years 10 months old! And please don't spout your rubbish about it being normal to copulate with young girls back in the 7th century because, whilst this may have been true for the primitive culture at the time, the fact that Muhammad was being divinely guided by God, who's ethics and morality is eternal and who had selected Muhammad to be the most perfect example to be followed for ETERNITY - means that comparing the intentions of Gods and prophets to the fallible, poorly evolved ethics of man, is quite simply laughable. But then your comments generally are hilarious I must say.

You go on to say that all Muhammads marriages were just - well, we have just seen that this is not true however - please do explain to me the deeply disturbing circumstances surrounding Muhammad's mariage to Safiyah. For me, this story is at complete odds with the idea of consensual marriage because, and please correct me if I am wrong, but on the day he marries her hadn't he just killed her Father, her Husband, her family and pretty much her entire tribe? This woman's whole world had just been obliterated by, and on the orders of, one man - thus, I find it hard to believe that a woman would freely marry let alone have sex with this very man who'd carried out all this carnage. And that she would do so on the exact same day these awful events had occurred!

I stand by my assertion that Muhammad raped Safiyah and he abused a little girl.

Yes Aisha's age is disputed.
It is true the ahadith are Sahih meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say what is reported in them.
However Aisha is the major source of the Ahadith about Aisha. Outside of what Aisha herself has said we know virtually nothing about her.
One issue about her age is that in other Ahadith she states witnessing events that would make her at least 10 years older than her stated age.
Yes there is disagreement among us as to her actual age and yes as Sunni we accept the Ahadith attributed to being the words of Aisha are Sahih, meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say/write them.

But we also understand there are no witnesses or other sources that can verify the accuracy of what Aisha wrote about herself.
There is a questionable hadith that seems to be the main support for Aisha's claim.

Interesting link HERE

For myself I tend to lean towards the possibility that Aisha meant her age in a metaphorical sense not chronological. I also acknowledge that is a minority opinion. Astagfirullah

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Yes Aisha's age is disputed.
It is true the ahadith are Sahih meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say what is reported in them.
However Aisha is the major source of the Ahadith about Aisha. Outside of what Aisha herself has said we know virtually nothing about her.
One issue about her age is that in other Ahadith she states witnessing events that would make her at least 10 years older than her stated age.
Yes there is disagreement among us as to her actual age and yes as Sunni we accept the Ahadith attributed to being the words of Aisha are Sahih, meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say/write them.

But we also understand there are no witnesses or other sources that can verify the accuracy of what Aisha wrote about herself.
There is a questionable hadith that seems to be the main support for Aisha's claim.

Interesting link HERE

For myself I tend to lean towards the possibility that Aisha meant her age in a metaphorical sense not chronological. I also acknowledge that is a minority opinion. Astagfirullah

Ms.Aisha Bint AbuBakrmay Allah be pleased withthem:

In a nine-year-old and did not enter the Prophet's Holy ءالا after immigration and God

What was his marriage to lust, but to document accompanied by her father Baker's parents and all the wives of the Prophet deflowered

ءالاMs.Aishawasthe onlyVirgin
TheMuslimbooks
And also
Otherdirectory
WhenAisha wasleading therebellion againstAli IbnAbi Talib,the cousin ofMuhammad
She was young and beautiful
Do you know the battle of camel between Ayesha and Ali Ibn Abi Talib??
Islamic history books for 1400 years did not deny any Muslim
But in the last 50 years
Muslims felt the seriousness of the crime of Muhammad??

Therefore try to cover them
Throughitis notauthentic
The age of Aisha was bigger
Permission is an attempt to spruce up Islam and Muhammad? s
But books undergoing a Mohamed
Throughchildhoodabuse

 

[Chev Chelios]

Yes Aisha's age is disputed.
It is true the ahadith are Sahih meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say what is reported in them.
However Aisha is the major source of the Ahadith about Aisha. Outside of what Aisha herself has said we know virtually nothing about her.
One issue about her age is that in other Ahadith she states witnessing events that would make her at least 10 years older than her stated age.
Yes there is disagreement among us as to her actual age and yes as Sunni we accept the Ahadith attributed to being the words of Aisha are Sahih, meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say/write them.

But we also understand there are no witnesses or other sources that can verify the accuracy of what Aisha wrote about herself.
There is a questionable hadith that seems to be the main support for Aisha's claim.

Interesting link HERE

For myself I tend to lean towards the possibility that Aisha meant her age in a metaphorical sense not chronological. I also acknowledge that is a minority opinion. Astagfirullah

With all respect - you are simply jumping from one foot to the next. You agree that the best scriptual evidence for Aisha's age is 8 years 10 months yet you still try and peddle an argument which is tantamount to mere obscurantion? There is no way out of this - she was a little girl and this is still the mainstream view.

As Mahasn Ebn Sawresho said - Aisha's age was NEVER debated historically, it is only now in modern times where Islamic theology is more readily open to critique that we are now seeing Moslem's scramble to explain their faith's more unsavoury aspects.

A key point in this, which supports my argumment, is that even in 2015 Shariah clearly says that the age of consent for a woman is the onset of puberty - that this has a global average of about 10, but can include girls as young as 7/8, means that even in the modern age Muhammads marriage to Aisha would have been seen as just by the Islamic communities IF she had started menarche. That is worrying, because as I have strongly argued - puberty is a period of growth, it is a transition from childhood to adulthood and its beginning does not mark its completion. That mainstream Islam sees nothing wrong with this odious but authentically Islamic precept explains why we see disproportionate child brides in the Islamic world. And it is all thanks to your prophet and your God (I am interested on your views of Muhammads union with Safiyah by the way).

Similarly, death for apostacy is a pretty well established fact within Islam and it seems to me that it is only Western Moslems who try to sugarcoat it. Islam has many entrances but few exits - once you are in it is hard to leave. Death for apostates is mainstream Islam and that people try and use the caveat of the line "only if they are spreading mischief in the land" never actually explain exactly what is meant by 'mischief'. See, if a person leaves Islam and joins another faith then by virtue of the fact that they now are effectively propergating another faith means that they can legitimately be seen as having become guilty of spreading mischief. That Western Moslems can freely change faith should not be confused with what awaits a Moslem who would do so in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Malaysia, Northern Nigeria, Somalia etc etc etc.

 

[Gharib]

Yes there are rules, but the rules are found in the Qur'an and Sunnah not the opinions of any central leader.
It is my responsibility to verify for myself all things I believe. There is no place in Islam for blind followers that do not seek proof of the truth in the words of any man.

So from where do you learn about the Sunnah?

 

[Gharib]

Yes Aisha's age is disputed.
It is true the ahadith are Sahih meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say what is reported in them.
However Aisha is the major source of the Ahadith about Aisha. Outside of what Aisha herself has said we know virtually nothing about her.
One issue about her age is that in other Ahadith she states witnessing events that would make her at least 10 years older than her stated age.
Yes there is disagreement among us as to her actual age and yes as Sunni we accept the Ahadith attributed to being the words of Aisha are Sahih, meaning we are absolutely certain Aisha did say/write them.

But we also understand there are no witnesses or other sources that can verify the accuracy of what Aisha wrote about herself.
There is a questionable hadith that seems to be the main support for Aisha's claim.

Interesting link HERE

For myself I tend to lean towards the possibility that Aisha meant her age in a metaphorical sense not chronological. I also acknowledge that is a minority opinion. Astagfirullah

Is there any evidence that Aisha, radiallahu anha has written anything about her self?

And according to the sunnah/hadith always follow the majority. Why follow a minority on this occasion?

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Aishas's age is debatable????? Opinions differ????? Erm - sorry pal but the source for her age as being UNDER 9 years old comes from your most AUTHENTIC and revered Hadith. If you reject your Sahih Hadith then fine - but that is you doing so at your own volition - however, you do not get to make up the rules of the faith unless this view was to predominate - and it certainly doesn't. We know that mainstream Islam evidently considers Sahih Hadith as profoundly important in unpacking the doctrine of Islam to enable its followers to accurately observe it - thus, unless you provide a better source I think it is abundantly fair for us to conclude that Aisha was indeed 8 years and 10 months old when Muhammad took advantage of her.



Interestingly you then go on to say that Aisha had reached puberty - well, first I'd like really to know your source for this because by all accounts we are told that she was playing with dolls when Muhammad came for her - again, this is in your Sahih Hadith. This is very imprortant to appreciate because if she had reached puberty she would NOT have been allowed to play with dolls - she did so because she was a child.



Now, the weakness and or barefaced lies of your arguments are really laid bare by your utterly absurd claim that girls matured faster in 650 AD! Your statement is at complete odds with the entire medical profession the world over, which in 2015 is complete agreement with the conclusion that girls are maturing faster than ever before NOW. If you disagree with this, as you appear to, then clearly it is not me you actually disagree with but them. Indeed, your argument seems to disregard the countless epidemiological data (many peer reviewed studies are online in very respected journals to get you started) gathered over the decades as well as medical experts the world over - such as those who belong to the American Academy of Paediatrics (see here Girls are Beginning Puberty at a Younger Age ) who I am sure would be illuminated by your skepticism. As a medical professional myself - that girls are maturing earlier than ever before has simply been established as a biological fact - a fact which governs much of how we care for female patients medically as well as emotionally from about the age of 10.



In short - Aisha WAS 8 years 10 months old when Muhammad abused her and in all likelihood she had not reached puberty when Muhammad abused her - not that reaching puberty matters because she was still 8 years 10 months old! And please don't spout your rubbish about it being normal to copulate with young girls back in the 7th century because, whilst this may have been true for the primitive culture at the time, the fact that Muhammad was being divinely guided by God, who's ethics and morality is eternal and who had selected Muhammad to be the most perfect example to be followed for ETERNITY - means that comparing the intentions of Gods and prophets to the fallible, poorly evolved ethics of man, is quite simply laughable. But then your comments generally are hilarious I must say.



You go on to say that all Muhammads marriages were just - well, we have just seen that this is not true however - please do explain to me the deeply disturbing circumstances surrounding Muhammad's mariage to Safiyah. For me, this story is at complete odds with the idea of consensual marriage because, and please correct me if I am wrong, but on the day he marries her hadn't he just killed her Father, her Husband, her family and pretty much her entire tribe? This woman's whole world had just been obliterated by, and on the orders of, one man - thus, I find it hard to believe that a woman would freely marry let alone have sex with that very man! And that she would do so on the exact same day this man had led and carried out this awful carnage absolutely beggers belief! But hey - Muhammad married her because she was now a widow right? Oh how nice and pleasent was the Prophet of Islam.



I stand by my assertion that Muhammad raped Safiyah and he abused a little girl.

I don’t regard your way of insulting me, using capital words and exclamation marks, and insults, but I will answer.



The main stream scholars through history agree that Aisha had reached puberty when she married the prophet, you say now that by medical science it’s not possible if she was 8 years 10 months old, I cannot argue medically because I’m not a medical professional.


Some scholars say that she did not reach puberty, and thus making the rule that pre-puberty marriage is acceptable., Well I had a discussion with one Salalfi Sheikh neighbor about this topic once, and he said that the girls at 9 even if they did not reach puberty have a mild degree of lust, and this is proven practically,, just Google it. Girls at 9 masturbating or even having willingly sexual intercourse.


Well I do not agree of marriage to a pre-puberty girl in this time, nor even till the girl reaches 18 years old, that’s because to reach mental and psychological maturity nowadays involves a lot more learning that in the past ages. These are nowadays standards of marriage



And you claim that because he is the final prophet as we Muslims claim then he should have lived his life by our modern nowadays standards is not accurate, he lived in the desert of Arabia 1400 years ago, he lived by that time standards where marriage standards were different from nowadays.



And your claim that it was abuse is wrong, Aisha loved the prophet very much as witnessed by the whole Muslims community, he did not force her to do anything she did not consent to do, he died in her arms.




We have two Probabilities:


1- The marriage was when she was 9


2- The hadith is wrong and unproved, and she was at the age from 14 to 21


Both opinions are respected, and have historical proofs.





Now Regarding Safiya, I think you got the whole idea very wrong, and DawudTalut Replied to you in the other thread you made about this specific issue


Muhammad's Troubling Marriages to Aisha and Safiyah | ReligiousForums.com



Who abused Safiya were her tribe, her father, they abused her to prevent her from being Muslim and fulfill her dream



She loved the prophet dearly; he did not force her to anything.



The Soldiers and leaders of the Tribe BanuKoriza betrayed their citizenship treaty they willingly had signed with the Prophet, they had all their religious, economical and cultural rights in exchange for not betraying the state or attacking Muslims, but While Medina was under siege by 10 thousands pagans army BanuKoriza openly broke the treaty and prepared to attack and kill all Muslims women and children from the back. This was call the battle of “Khandaq” or “Ahzab” at year 5 higri /627 AD.


After the battle was over they “BanuKoriza “ agreed on the Muslim judge who was an ally of them, But the top treason crime was overwhelming, the judge had no choice but the death penalty of all soldiers and leaders, thus lead to the enslavement of all women and children without forcing them to join Islam, Keep in mind that the slavery system in Islam is way different, Even the Muslim master is not allowed to call him or her Slave, but is instructed to call him My Boy, or My girl, he or she is treated as a respected person of the family, he should eat, drink and wear as his masters, never be burdened with a hard job or else the master should help him or her in it. And eventually they are encouraged to be freed by the Holy Qur’an commands to free slaves, or they can work and pay to free themselves.



While after this by only less than two years, the prophet made another treaty with the Jews tribes in “Khaibar” town, he did not hurt or enslave them, they were about 10 thousands men with their women and children, The prophet spared them because they were another Town not involved in high treason in the Muslim State, this was at year 7 higri, 628 AD and was called the battle and treaty of” Kaibar”



Regards


Mahmoud