What Is The Purpose Of Baptism?

[lostwanderingsoul]

Still, the bible says no man can enter heaven until he has received water baptism and the Holy Spirit.

...So I'm baptizing my children. And the Catholic Church is happy to do it.

Please tell me where the Bible says anyone can enter Heaven,even if baptized.

 

[joelr]

Baptism is an initiation into the cult. It was practiced in most of the pagan religions as well.


"Initiation brings you into a relationship with the god or gods of the cult. Much as Christian initiation brings you into a relationship with Jesus, the Christ, so initiation into the pagan mysteries brings you into a relationship with ‘Egyptian’ Isis, or ‘Persian’ Mithras, or home-grown Dionysus-Bacchus, or one or other of the several Great Mother goddesses and their junior consorts (Cybele and Attis for example)."

BBC - History - Ancient History in depth: The Pagan Shadow of Christ?

 

[metis]

Baptism is an initiation into the cult. It was practiced in most of the pagan religions as well.

A "cult" is not necessarily the same as a "religion", nor does the fact that the procedure of a ritual that is changed to offer a different meaning make that new meaning "pagan".

 

[Cooky]

That is more sadly true than you know. It means that your church has no idea what baptism really means.
But you are free to choose whatever appeals to your own sensibilities. I am just telling you what the Bible says in case you are interested....

At least I'm not in a cult.

 

[Cooky]

Please tell me where the Bible says anyone can enter Heaven,even if baptized.

The bible does not say that.

 

[Cooky]

First, I find there was No baptism for people who died before Christ died.
That is why even King David did Not ascend as per Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
By saying 'No man' is Not the same as saying No children or No minors.
Only 'adults' that fit the category of Luke 22:28-30 about who can be resurrected to heaven.
They have a first or earlier resurrection over the rest of resurrected mankind.- Revelation 20:6
In other words, the majority of mankind (John 3:13) can have a happy-and-physical resurrection back to life on Earth.
The figurative living ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 are alive on Earth at this soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
Those 'sheep' do Not go to heaven, but can remain alive on earth right through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 to become part of the humble meek people who will inherit the earth as per Psalms 37:9-11.
The earthly realm of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) will govern over earth for a thousand years under Christ as king of God's kingdom government over earth, or over earthly subjects or citizens of God's kingdom.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14

So who does it hurt when we baptize babies? Does it anger God?

...Or is the rejection of infant baptism just an exaggerated talking point that gives Protestantism legitimacy.

 

[EtuMalku]

That's question number one.

Secondly, is there any meaningful difference between infant baptism and adult baptism; that is, does one confer something the other doesn't?

.

"Brainwashing/inculcation/indoctrination is one in the same word in meaning. These words are used in reference to promoting a one-sided opinion as being truthful, without allowing access to other ideas and with no reservation in calling it unjustifiably, the ‘truth’."

"Youthful brains soak up information with little effort, establishing permanent neuronic pathways"

"Once learned, the information so gained is retained for life, allowing it to take on an instinctive mantle in later years.

Read the entire article here:
https://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/overcoming-religious-indoctrination-6-steps-towards-sanity/

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The bible does not say that.

OK Great. I prefer to believe the Bible, not some idea made up by men wearing robes. But everyone is free to believe what they want.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So who does it hurt when we baptize babies? Does it anger God?

...Or is the rejection of infant baptism just an exaggerated talking point that gives Protestantism legitimacy.

The Bible says one must repent and be baptized. No infant is able to repent. So the baptism has no effect. It is not just a talking point when people's eternal lives are at stake.

 

[Cooky]

OK Great. I prefer to believe the Bible, not some idea made up by men wearing robes. But everyone is free to believe what they want.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Your comment is completely irrelevant to the conversation we were just having.

 

[Cooky]

The Bible says one must repent and be baptized. No infant is able to repent. So the baptism has no effect. It is not just a talking point when people's eternal lives are at stake.

Please explain how infant baptism negatively effects people's eternal lives.

 

[Cooky]

They can get the water baptism after birth, and repent once they learn how to talk. No..?

.. We cant help it if we're over achievers. Nothing wrong with going above and beyond.

 

[joelr]

A "cult" is not necessarily the same as a "religion", nor does the fact that the procedure of a ritual that is changed to offer a different meaning make that new meaning "pagan".

Christian baptism wasn't changed from the religions/cults it was borrowed from? It's "pagan" because baptism into savior-god cults was common and Christianity adopted the ritual.
There were several pre-Christian religions that were also dying/rising, forgive your sins, rose after being dead for 3 days religions.
This is a list of common features these cults had. Notice water-baptism was common.

• They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
• They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
• They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
• They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
• They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
• They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
• They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
• They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
• They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).
• They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
• They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
• And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).

You might start to notice we’ve almost completely described Christianity already. It gets better. These cults all had a common central savior deity, who shared most or all these features (when, once again, we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

• They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
• They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
• They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
• That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
• By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
• Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
• They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
• Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed.

Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

Richard Carrier is a biblical PhD historian studying the historicity of Jesus and early Christianity and the surrounding religions.

 

[metis]

Christian baptism wasn't changed from the religions/cults it was borrowed from? It's "pagan" because baptism into savior-god cults was common and Christianity adopted the ritual.
There were several pre-Christian religions that were also dying/rising, forgive your sins, rose after being dead for 3 days religions.
This is a list of common features these cults had. Notice water-baptism was common.

• They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
• They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
• They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
• They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
• They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
• They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
• They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
• They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
• They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).
• They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
• They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
• And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).

You might start to notice we’ve almost completely described Christianity already. It gets better. These cults all had a common central savior deity, who shared most or all these features (when, once again, we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

• They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
• They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
• They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
• That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
• By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
• Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
• They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
• Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed.

Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

Richard Carrier is a biblical PhD historian studying the historicity of Jesus and early Christianity and the surrounding religions.

Again, it doesn't make a difference as the Church used that ritual within its own context. Nor do I buy the "guilt-by-association" approach on such matters.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It says "strangers", so it's not just limited to "spiritual brothers".

I find at Matthew 25:40 it does specify Jesus ' brothers ' who are Not strangers.
It is how the figurative humble sheep and how the haughty goats treat Jesus' spiritual brothers.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So who does it hurt when we baptize babies? Does it anger God?
...Or is the rejection of infant baptism just an exaggerated talking point that gives Protestantism legitimacy.

I find since we are to worship based on religious truth (John 17:17) then we are to follow what Jesus says at John 4:24-24.
To baptize someone who has not made a personal dedication to God is practicing a religious falsehood.
After all, minor children are already covered by the believing parent according to 1 Corinthians 7:14.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

They can get the water baptism after birth, and repent once they learn how to talk. No..?
.. We cant help it if we're over achievers. Nothing wrong with going above and beyond.

I can't find anywhere where Jesus went ' above and beyond '.
Jesus at Revelation 22:18 did say Not to go beyond by adding beyond what is written.
Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth (John 17:17) religious truth that sets us free from what is false.
Again, as 1 Corinthians 7:14 informs us that minor children are already covered by the believing parent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Please explain how infant baptism negatively effects people's eternal lives.

I would suppose that infant baptism could put the idea in a person's mind that they do Not need adult baptism.
Thus, they can remain in spiritual darkness where Scriptural matters or teaching is concerned thinking it does Not matter.

 

[Cooky]

I would suppose that infant baptism could put the idea in a person's mind that they do Not need adult baptism.
Thus, they can remain in spiritual darkness where Scriptural matters or teaching is concerned thinking it does Not matter.

Why would it matter? They don't need it...

The water baptism is the Christening, the Holy Spirit cleanses the soul of the baby -who really has no reason to repent yet.... Then, time after time the Christian will repent his sins in the confessional for the remainder of his life.

What's the difference?

 

[Cooky]

Protestants these days must realize that Catholics believe Sola Scriptura is a fallacy based on copied traits from other religions.

Christianity was never meant to be a "faith of the book". It was meant to be a living faith. That's Why there existed Gnostics from the beginning. Our Eastern brothers had the desert fathers.

...In fact, the Catholic Church may have been first to lead in the direction of being "of the book", being they published it, but the Protestants seem to have run to the hills with it. They've gone too far.