What is the salvation message the JW's espouse?

[Unveiled Artist]

Phillipians 2:5-7. I have read two different Bibles, one contrary to the other about the equality of Jesus and The Father.

Nice. (What I've been saying for awhile now. Interesting). Do you have multiple scriptures verses that both say two different things but are the same verses?

 

[Faithofchristian]

In answer to a request for this information, I will endeavor to answer as simply as I can....

To understand the "salvation message" one first has to understand what salvation is. What are we getting saved from, exactly?

In reading the scriptures it is apparent that Adam lost something that only Jesus could get back for us. But why did it need him to sacrifice his life?

The scriptures say that Christ's sacrifice is a "ransom" which is the price paid for the release of a captive.

Jesus said..."Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

What Adam did was sell his children into slavery due to his disobedience. They then had to pay for what he did. This was slavery to sin and death....not something that we can release ourselves from. But why did Jesus have to be born as a human child and offer up his life? Because the price required under the law of God was an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life."

Adam's sin caused alienation from God requiring a mediator to act as a go-between for us with God....because of our sinful condition, we cannot come before God directly. As mediator Jesus conveyed God's instructions to mankind behind the scenes for thousands of years before his mission to earth to offer his life for us. The "crime" committed by Adam carried the death penalty.....Adam died, but as a result, that penalty was inherited genetically by all of Adam's children. (Romans 5:12)

Since a perfect life was lost, only a perfect life could redeem mankind. None among the human race were now perfect, tarnished by the defect of sin. Jesus volunteered to carry out the mission and fulfill the law that justice required. It was the ultimate act of love. (John 15:13)

His life would pay for our release. But why is salvation necessary? Because humans on earth have free will and many of them do not want Christ's ransom to apply to them. By their choices and lifestyle they show God that they don't want to know him.

The apostle Paul wrote that...."it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 NWT)

At the time of the judgment, only those who have proven worthy of the ransom will be saved from the coming wrath of God which will be expressed upon all those who heard the Christian message but rejected it.

Jesus used the days of Noah as a symbol of things to come....

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:37-39 ESV)

Just as surely as God brought a flood of punishment upon a world of ungodly people, so he will again. Only this time it will not be by water.

Heres what you said, which is not true.
(But why did Jesus have to be born as a human child and offer up his life? Because the price required under the law of God was an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.")
This is totally not true.
God does not go for an ( eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth, life for a life ) That's Old Testaments Scriptures.

Christ Jesus refuted that notion in
Matthew (5:38-42) in the New Testament, Jesus repudiates even that notion. "Ye have heard that it hath beensaid, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)

Therefore what people did according to the old testament scriptures, is no longer binding on the New Testament Scriptures.

The true reason why Jesus gave his blood, is because by the law of God's, blood had to be given for the Atonement for sin, This why in the old testament scriptures, Israel made animal sacrifices for the Atonement of their sins.

Leviticus 17:11----For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Therefore Jesus gave his blood for the Atonement for the sin of the world.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law"
1st John 3:4

My question is, do you understand what Jesus ment by turning the other the cheek in
Matthew 5:38-39.

Let's for say, that your talking with someone and they do not want to hear any more from you, But you keep going until they hit you, Now since you caused them to hit you, by not stopping when they ask you too.
Now turn to them the other cheek, since it was your fault for not stopping when they ask you too.
This is what Jesus ment by turning the other cheek.
Do not keep going until the person hits you, for not stopping when they ask you to.

 

[David T]

"The Jews were aware of Adam's sin, and they lived according to the law to try to atone for it. But you can NEVER measure up to the law. The way it's designed"

Samantha, you are sort of kind of correct..

"The law. The way it's designed" is very problematic creation of the theology department. In.the physics department can see they have

Did Jesus always exist?

If Jesus is the Son of God, isnt that a divine nature?

"If Jesus is the Son of God, isnt that a divine nature"

Divine nature, a curious dualistic term. There is the object, say a tree, there is the observer, and There is the dualistic definition, is divine- not divine. And example Is the tree divine or is it not divine? Is the term divine determined by our brains? It's like it's almost quantum mechanics oddly enough.

Is the tree divine, or is the tree not divine? To make it simple.is.the tree of.knowledge divine?

 

[David T]

Jesus is the Son of Man.

It's a riddle, but I'll help you solve it.

The Jews were aware of Adam's sin, and they lived according to the law to try to atone for it. But you can NEVER measure up to the law. The way it's designed, even if there was one law ("don't eat from that tree") it couldn't be followed. And if you've ever worked for a crappy boss with impossible standards, you know exactly the problem. There's also the fact that humans suffering under the Knowledge of Good and Evil, even if no laws were given, would decide on their own that they had done something wrong.

Jesus figured out the flaw of the paradigm, and overcame it, transcending the programming. Kinda sorta like Neo in the Matrix series. Because of this, Jesus is no longer a separate being from humanity. By dying, he became something other God (God is a deity, deities cannot die, so by dying he became part of the human race), and rising from the dead, he made humans part of the body of God.

What was the significance of the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died?

"The ways the law was designed"

If I complain about "laws of physics" in the physics department most will insist that "laws " of physics is real. I step over into the theology department and here too is "laws" being treated as real. Is God an divine urban planner?

There is no such thing as "laws "of physics there is just that physics. Nature is not a slave to laws. There is not an object, a law and an outcome. An interesting trinity to me.

So in regards to "the way the law was designed" is to say we have an object, there are laws imposed upon the object and the behaviour of the object is determined by the law.

I would say the above is co equal to atheistic "laws of physics. " Thus perfectly aligned to science. It's silly but aligned.

 

[David T]

So to say that Jesus is equal with God is a misconception?

Also i find it interesting that God made Jesus and that God has sinless creations. Perhaps Jesus was born differently than mankind?

Humans being born to choose, while Jesus is born divine.

my daughter didn't choose.

One of the hardest things for smart folk is to overcome smart. The text is totally irrelevant to my daughter, so is the text relevant to God or is it only relevant to some reading educated humans and that is all its relevant to?

The sun rises the sun sets independent of human thoughts theories ideas beliefs non beliefs agnosticism. Nature determines the bible, the bible never ever determines nature.

 

[osgart]

Nice. (What I've been saying for awhile now. Interesting). Do you have multiple scriptures verses that both say two different things but are the same verses?

I came across just this one so far.

 

[InChrist]

And everyone who uses the expression "Oh my God!" is calling the person they are talking to a deity....

Can you provide a single scripture where Jesus actually confesses straight out to being God? Just one will do.

Thomas was a doubter...he was displaying a lack of faith. When Jesus materialized a body with wound marks just for his benefit, you are going to take an exclamation of shock to be an accurate account of the deity of Jesus Christ?

Thomas may have been a doubter, but he was also a Jew who knew that to use the terms God and Lord out of excitement or shock would be breaking the third commandment. Jesus or another disciple would have rebuked him on the spot! Yet, he was speaking directly to Jesus, who did not rebuke him, but instead commended Thomas for the conclusion that he came to because Thomas saw Him and believed, then Jesus said, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.” John 20:29 NWT or “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29 NKJV.

Not only that, but a Jew, Thomas knew the scriptures of the OT related to the One True God of Israel. Scriptures, which clearly distinguished the Creator God from all other false gods. I am sure that he was familiar with the passage in Isaiah...
A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God (Isaiah 40:3 NWT)
or
The voice of one crying in the wilderness:“Prepare the way of the Lord;Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. (Isaiah 40:3 NKJV.)

All four New Testament gospel writers used this passage to show that John the Baptist was the announcer and that he was announcing the coming of Jehovah and...applied it to Jesus. So does this not indicate that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John also realized, as did Thomas, that Jesus was their Lord and God?

 

[InChrist]

Phillipians 2:5-7. I have read two different Bibles, one contrary to the other about the equality of Jesus and The Father.

I believe that passage shows that, although Jesus was God and fully equal with God, His purpose in coming to earth in human form was to be a servant, therefore He did not go around proclaiming His Godhood.

 

[InChrist]

So to say that Jesus is equal with God is a misconception?

Also i find it interesting that God made Jesus and that God has sinless creations. Perhaps Jesus was born differently than mankind?

Humans being born to choose, while Jesus is born divine.

What do you mean when you say God made Jesus? Do you believe Jesus existed prior to His time on earth as the Son of God? Does your perspective include an eternal Son or a created Son?

 

[osgart]

What do you mean when you say God made Jesus? Do you believe Jesus existed prior to His time on earth as the Son of God? Does your perspective include an eternal Son or a created Son?

Well from what Deeje wrote, i had questions about that. From the JW perspective Jesus is begotten before he came to Earth as a child. IOW he is a created divine being and not God, but the Son of God only.

I am not a Christian as of this day. But i am amazed at all the many different interpretations of the Bible, and the many different translations of it. It seems of the many denominations no two of them agree.

 

[InChrist]

Well from what Deeje wrote, i had questions about that. From the JW perspective Jesus is begotten before he came to Earth as a child. IOW he is a created divine being and not God, but the Son of God only.

I am not a Christian as of this day. But i am amazed at all the many different interpretations of the Bible, and the many different translations of it. It seems of the many denominations no two of them agree.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I used to be amazed and confused by the various denominations myself and what seemed like so many different interpretations. At one time I was a member of a group where I often heard it bragged about how on any given Sunday, anywhere in the world, everyone in this organization was on the same Sunday school lesson. Back then I thought this sounded so great, but not now. Since being saved and knowing Jesus as my Savior, I have realized that God is so much bigger and allows so much more room for individual growth and maturity in Christ. Denominations, while from the outside may appear confusing, I think are a reflection of the variety in the Body of Christ. From my research all denominations which adhere to the scriptures have always agreed on the essentials of the biblical faith and allowed for differences in non-essentials. The deity of Christ is an essential belief of biblical Christian faith and denying His deity has always been considered heresy.
What is Arianism?

The biblical objections to Jesus having been created as a god are found throughout Scripture. There is no place in the Bible that testifies to that Watchtower teaching, but it is clearly contradicted in the many verses which state that there is only one God. Moreover, Jesus, rather than being a “created god,” is the Creator and One who sustains all things: “For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians:1:16-17)

Yet, the NWT illegitimately injects the bracketed word “[other]” between “all” and “things” in order to portray Jesus as created and deny the exclusive aspect of Him creating “all things,” of which only God is capable. Written to support the false teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the NWT nevertheless elsewhere confirms Jesus as the exclusive creator of “all things”: “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence” (John:1:3NWT).

 

[osgart]

Personally i am still stuck on the indifferent nature of existence so hostile to life. So savage in its survival necessity.

I am still stuck when it comes to the brutal evil victimizations that happens to children and youth. And wonder why?

I am very much stuck about all the people born into the world who die never knowing any God.

I experience silence in my prayers.

I think it very, very difficult to understand God in these terms and conditions.

I dont get angry about God. I just chalk it up to the fact that i dont detect the presence of God.

Now perhaps all of humanity is evil and deserves everlasting doom and every evil thing that comes our way. But i cant definitively say that is true.

Having said all that, sometimes i see beauty in nature and think in terms of God.

Then i think of the people i love and wonder if death really is the end, or something more is out there.

 

[Deeje]

Phillipians 2:5-7. I have read two different Bibles, one contrary to the other about the equality of Jesus and The Father.

OK...lets take the passage in context....and allow scripture to explain scripture.

Here is that whole passage from 3 different translation.....which one(s) agrees with the rest of the Bible?

NASB..."Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

NIV..."In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

KJV....." Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

What does it say in the Greek Interlinear?

MOUNCE INTERLINEAR "...although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos"

Which ones agree with the Greek translation? The NSAB would get my vote.

"Existing in the form of God" means that whatever "form" God has...Jesus had that too before coming to this earth as a human. What does the Bible say about the form of God?

According to John 4:24..."God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (NASB and others render it the same way)

So God's "form" is "spirit"...meaning that in heaven, Jesus was also a spirit. Angels are spirits. No material creature can live in heaven because it is a spiritual realm.

That is the first point. There is so much more if you wish to discuss the rest....

 

[Deeje]

Personally i am still stuck on the indifferent nature of existence so hostile to life. So savage in its survival necessity.

I am still stuck when it comes to the brutal evil victimizations that happens to children and youth. And wonder why?

I am very much stuck about all the people born into the world who die never knowing any God.

I experience silence in my prayers.

I think it very, very difficult to understand God in these terms and conditions.

I dont get angry about God. I just chalk it up to the fact that i dont detect the presence of God.

Now perhaps all of humanity is evil and deserves everlasting doom and every evil thing that comes our way. But i cant definitively say that is true.

Having said all that, sometimes i see beauty in nature and think in terms of God.

Then i think of the people i love and wonder if death really is the end, or something more is out there.

I hear you and you echo my exact sentiments before I ditched the church and undertook a thorough study of the scriptures without dogma getting in the way. On the surface of things, it appears confusing until you start digging for the gems beneath. Jesus likened the truth to buried treasure so if you have a shovel and want to dig, I guarantee that your efforts will be rewarded. Understanding the reasons behind all those things is so important, but you have to be prepared to work through the answers...allowing the Bible to explain itself.

Would you like to explore those questions one at a time, just from the Bible? You choose the translation.

 

[Shad]

Jesus is the "Son of God"...he is the first divine creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14)

What are other divine creations? For example angels, the universe, humans, etc

Are there non-divine creations? (I do not mean things humans create like chairs, planes, etc.)

 

[InChrist]

Personally i am still stuck on the indifferent nature of existence so hostile to life. So savage in its survival necessity.

I am still stuck when it comes to the brutal evil victimizations that happens to children and youth. And wonder why?

I am very much stuck about all the people born into the world who die never knowing any God.

I experience silence in my prayers.

I think it very, very difficult to understand God in these terms and conditions.

I dont get angry about God. I just chalk it up to the fact that i dont detect the presence of God.

Now perhaps all of humanity is evil and deserves everlasting doom and every evil thing that comes our way. But i cant definitively say that is true.

Having said all that, sometimes i see beauty in nature and think in terms of God.

Then i think of the people i love and wonder if death really is the end, or something more is out there.

Such thoughts are certainly valid considering the conditions in the world, some of which you have mentioned and wonder about. It is so difficult to see things like the brutality of nature or children being abused and victimized. I understand these things to be the result of the Fall which has impacted all of creation in a harmful way.

 

[Deeje]

(But why did Jesus have to be born as a human child and offer up his life? Because the price required under the law of God was an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.")
This is totally not true.
God does not go for an ( eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth, life for a life ) That's Old Testaments Scriptures.

Do you understand that OT scripture was all Jesus had? The Law was in force right up until Jesus fulfilled it by offering his life for ours. The first Adam's sin, passed onto his children through no fault on their part, was atoned for by the sacrifice of "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45) The redeemer. What was a redeemer in Israel?

Jesus said he did not come to 'destroy the Law, but to fulfill it'. (Matthew 5:17-18) The Law was that a life was given, if a life was taken...that is Capital Punishment which is still reflected in many parts of the world in their constitutions. Even in some states of the US if I am not mistaken.

Christ Jesus refuted that notion in
Matthew (5:38-42) in the New Testament, Jesus repudiates even that notion. "Ye have heard that it hath beensaid, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)

Therefore what people did according to the old testament scriptures, is no longer binding on the New Testament Scriptures.

My question is, do you understand what Jesus ment by turning the other the cheek in
Matthew 5:38-39.

Turning the other cheek is not cancelling out the principle of the Law. A slap was not a punch. It was an act of provocation, inviting the receiver to take up the challenge of defending himself. Duels were fought with the provocation of a slap in the face. Jesus was saying "don't be provoked"....he was demonstrating that this kind of provocation could lead a person to taking the life of another because pride was invoked. Humility would mean allowing that person to slap the other side of your face with no inducement to respond in kind.

Do you understand what Jesus meant? I don't think you do....

 

[Deeje]

What are other divine creations? For example angels, the universe, humans, etc

Are there non-divine creations? (I do not mean things humans create like chairs, planes, etc.)

Whatever is created by God is of divine origin. Adam in his original form (before sin) was divinely created. He is called a "son of God" because he did not have human parents. His children are the result of his procreative abilities given by God. But each human is not a direct divine creation....only the process of their reproduction is divine in origin.

Jesus is certainly a divine creation, not the product of normal human reproduction.

So "divine" would reflect something that reflects back on God as the Creator of all things. It praises him just by its existence.

Psalm 19:1..."The heavens are declaring the glory of God; The skies above proclaim the work of his hands."

Anything that gives glory back to its Maker could be considered to be divinely provided. I cannot think of anything that is the work of God's hand that is not divinely given as a gift to us. That of course doesn't mean that genetic hiccups as the result of imperfection on the earth at present is caused by God, but is a natural consequence of things being out of kilter. The further away humans distance themselves from God, the worse thing appear to get.

That is how I view things.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Do you understand that OT scripture was all Jesus had? The Law was in force right up until Jesus fulfilled it by offering his life for ours. The first Adam's sin, passed onto his children through no fault on their part, was atoned for by the sacrifice of "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45) The redeemer. What was a redeemer in Israel?

Jesus said he did not come to 'destroy the Law, but to fulfill it'. (Matthew 5:17-18) The Law was that a life was given, if a life was taken...that is Capital Punishment which is still reflected in many parts of the world in their constitutions. Even in some states of the US if I am not mistaken.



Turning the other cheek is not cancelling out the principle of the Law. A slap was not a punch. It was an act of provocation, inviting the receiver to take up the challenge of defending himself. Duels were fought with the provocation of a slap in the face. Jesus was saying "don't be provoked"....he was demonstrating that this kind of provocation could lead a person to taking the life of another because pride was invoked. Humility would mean allowing that person to slap the other side of your face with no inducement to respond in kind.

Do you understand what Jesus meant? I don't think you do....

Do you understand as to which law Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 5:17-19.
I don't think so.
And it's not the Ten commandment law either.
Well it's evidence that you have no idea, what Jesus ment exactly to turn the other cheek.

 

[zenobia]

I know this may be off subject; but, just questions of curiosity rather than discussion. In JW view:

Since Christianity is corrupted, why use the book in which where, in part, were written by those who believed in christ (christians) and chosen, distributed, and taught by the Catholic Church (before the split)?

Why use their book if they are corrupted?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Torah to which the laws given from moses come directly from god...as opposed to apostles testimonies that are about jesus and jesus words about the words of moses?


What a good question: However, it is not our view that the Bible is corrupt. It's the teachings that have been handed down since the Christian Greek Scriptures were written and that conflict with what the scriptures say, this is rejected by Jehovah's Witnesses. For example, Jesus and his apostles warned that there would be a great apostasy away from the teachings of Jesus and the rest of the scriptures after Jesus death and the death of the apostles. However, sincere Christians did not deviate from this truth that is still found in God's word today. Rather than view the Bible as 'old' and 'new' testaments, we view that entire Bible canon as sacred and from God (including the Torah) which prophesies many things about the coming of Jesus, and the end times. It also helps us to differentiate between true and false teachings.

So it is our view that Christendom has corrupted Bible teachings through there doctrine and traditions. However, God has preserved his word down to our day so that anyone who sincerely wants to know God will find him.

Coming from a non-trinitarian view.