What is the threshold for labeling a religious belief as a “delusion”?

[Audie]

Delusion impacts function, understanding basic reality, social, and physical existence.

When beliefs and convictions do not impact those areas they are not delusions.

There are beliefs and convictions that do no damage or harm to anyone and shouldn't be considered delusion.

Imo delusion is impairment.

False religion held sincerely is self deception not delusion. People function at high levels while also being fundamentalists, and false religion adherents. Not to be confused with mental illness caused by delusion. That's how I see that!

I don't see much of that on the definition

 

[Audie]

Yea that is something I have been working on and actively pursuing. Forgoing religion. It‘s a bit tricky, but I can decide what I believe in. In the metaphysical or strictly the physical.

Forgoing religion entirely is an option I am going to go over in full with the therapist in the coming weeks. Might even leave this site in order to remove all religious stimuli out of my head, I’m not sure.

" metaphysics" is for believing in

The physical is for understanding.

There's a huge difference.

Check definition of " delusion " and see how it relates to
" belief in".

 

[Audie]

Is it delusion or ignorance?

Check definition.
It's not ignorance.

 

[MikeF]

Ignorance implies knowledge of fallacy to argument, yet still proceeding. Delusional implies all knowledge against argument is wrong no matter source or quantity. In my opinion most people are delusional, and they do it by blocking out all contrary opinions. It is hard to be ignorant over the long term, ignorance will usually turn into egotism; whereas it does not matter if it is wrong, I want it and I am all that's important. It is not really delusional as in reality you are all that's important to you.

Hmmmm. Ignorance means a specific lack of knowledge. One in a state of ignorance may be unaware of their ignorance or to what extent they are ignorant.

From my understanding, delusion is mental pathology, not mere persistence in holding on to false or incorrect belief. There are lots of reasons other than clinical delusion that may account for such behavior. See: Delusion - Wikipedia

 

[Heyo]

There are lots of reasons other than clinical delusion that may account for such behavior.

Only if you step out of the context of this OP.

 

[MikeF]

Only if you step out of the context of this OP.

I thought that was exactly the point of the OP, how to demarcate between false or erroneous beliefs that rise to the level of delusion and those that do not.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

I do truly feel for you here @an anarchist, because your confusion about delusion vs faith is neither strange/uncommon nor unwarranted in context of what you are going through and you should openly talk of your reflections about it with your therapist.

Also; there is certainly nothing preventing actual church pastors too from exhibiting delusions in relation to their faith at times. After all, delusion itself is not a constant state of mind that only certain people can find themselves in. Indeed; most of us will at times have delusions - whether about ourselves, others or systems in general (self-purpose, relationships, governments, matters of faith, etc).

In regards to clinical delusion, however, I used to say that it is less important to agree/disagree on how to label the situation, than it is to accurately address what it is that it is doing; both to you and to those close to you.

I’ll give no view on whether good or bad, but can certainly share that when your current “conviction” -shall we say- prevents you from responsibly partaking in society (I know; it’s not pleasant to think in this manner but it is nonetheless so), as in financially supporting yourself, paying taxes and remaining a lawful, contributing citizen in general; at best, it is considered problematically incompatible with the norm and a matter of concern. When you current “conviction” leads to conduct of danger, either to yourself or others; with or without your consent, it shall be “dealt with”.

Put bluntly: clinically speaking, it’s seldom a question of whether your convictions are “true” or not. What matters is what these convictions lead to - especially in regards to you as a fellow citizen in general.

In short: if you clearly can show that your state of delusion has made you a more harmonious member of society, what your delusion actually consist of, will no longer matter too much.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

"In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as: A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person’s culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith)."

So for example, it would not be a delusion to believe that Jesus rose from the dead because that is a common religious belief in the Christian subculture. But it would be a delusion to believe that you are a prophet who is receiving special messages from God.

Here are some examples of religious delusions from How Bipolar Disorder Can Create Harmful Delusions With Religion :

Religious paranoid delusions:
"Demons are watching me, following me, waiting to punish me if I do anything they don't like," or "If I put on my shoes, God will set them on fire to punish me, so I have to go barefoot all the time." Auditory hallucinations, such as, "The voices keep telling me there are devils in my room," are often combined with religious paranoia.

Religious delusions of grandeur:
"God has exalted me above you, normal people. He tells me I don't need help, don't need medicine. I'm going to heaven and all of you are going to go to hell," or "I am Christ reborn."

I'm sure your psychiatrist would be the perfect person to discuss your personal case.