What is the Trinity?

[MJFlores]

What is clear is that at the time that was written God was not a man. It does not say that God will not become a man in the future. It says that at that present time, God was not a man. If the Trinitarians are correct, the God only manifested as a man way after the above text was written.

Also, when Abraham meets the three men, two of them are angels and one is simply referred to as YHWH. So in that case YHWH was identified as a man.

So according to you GOD COULD CHANGE
Before God does not want to become a MAN
But God decided to become a man, he changed his mind.

Most of the time, we should refer to the BIBLE for answers
If we believe the words of others then we will be deceived
The Bible are the words of God and words coming from our lips are words of men
So we should decide are we going to believe the Bible or man?

Does God change?

Malachi 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

In the old testament, God said "I do not change"
How about in the new testament?

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

So God written in the Old Testament and God written in the New Testament - DO NOT CHANGE.

However there is a god who can change and masquerade as a man and even as an angel of light.

Even though Jesus was a man, even if one doesn't believe he was God, he was certainly more than a man, and wasn't a man in the usual sense. He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless. The previous scripture you mentioned identifies God as not being a man because he doesn't lie. Jesus was sinless and never lied. So is this certainly more than the qualities precluding God from being a man in Numbers.

He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless??????

From the Bible, not from me or from another person's opinion:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 10:32-33 New International Version (NIV)
“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

What was that again?????
He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless??????

Well, the voice from heaven is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ said his Father is in heaven. You must have a different Jesus and a different gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:4 New International Version (NIV)
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

The Jesus the apostles preached was a man
The Jesus the apostles preached was not a God
The Jesus the apostles preached has a Father
The Jesus the apostles preached is the genuine Jesus written in the Bible

 

[Samael_Khan]

So according to you GOD COULD CHANGE
Before God does not want to become a MAN
But God decided to become a man, he changed his mind.

Most of the time, we should refer to the BIBLE for answers
If we believe the words of others then we will be deceived
The Bible are the words of God and words coming from our lips are words of men
So we should decide are we going to believe the Bible or man?

Does God change?

Malachi 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

In the old testament, God said "I do not change"
How about in the new testament?

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

So God written in the Old Testament and God written in the New Testament - DO NOT CHANGE.

However there is a god who can change and masquerade as a man and even as an angel of light.

He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless??????

From the Bible, not from me or from another person's opinion:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 10:32-33 New International Version (NIV)
“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

What was that again?????
He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless??????

Well, the voice from heaven is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ said his Father is in heaven. You must have a different Jesus and a different gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:4 New International Version (NIV)
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

View attachment 30888

The Jesus the apostles preached was a man
The Jesus the apostles preached was not a God
The Jesus the apostles preached has a Father
The Jesus the apostles preached is the genuine Jesus written in the Bible

I agree with you that one should read the text for the answers. Especially paying to CONTEXT. With both the quotes you are making about God not changing, the question is change according to what? What we know about God in the bible is that he does change in the Laws he expects his people to keep. That is why Christians do not follow the law of Moses. he previously expected his followers in Israel to follow the Sabbath. But before them and after them he never expected his followers to do so. Again before and after Israel he didnt expect his followers to observe the ceremonial laws. God said that there is a possibility of changing his mind in Jeremiah 26:3: “Perhaps they will listen and each one will turn back from his evil way, and I will change my mind concerning the calamity that I intend to bring on them because of their evil deeds.”..So the question is: God doesn't change relating to WHAT? Neither of those verse, read in context, refer to God's physical form. So you are jumping the gun.

Malachi 3 is talking about God purifying his followers (verse 3), coming near the for judgement (verse 5), God returning to his people if they return to him (verse 7). Therefore he doesn't change in his moral expectations of them, his judgement of them, and his returning to them when they repent.

Again, read the whole of James 1. Nowhere is the text referring to God's physical appearance. God doesn't change in that he doesn't tempt people (verse 12 - 15) and providing good and perfect gifts to his followers (verse 17).

So I would say to you, instead of proof texting, read the context. I already showed you how God does change with the laws he makes for his followers, the covenants. Therefore you must clarify what the God not changing is referring to.

OK. I didn't think you would misunderstand me in relation to Jesus not having a father so I will be clearer. I meant a biological father. As we all know that the Bible says that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. God is his spiritual father. Certainly nobody else was born of a virgin.

Please address my other points as well.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Please address my other points as well.

Ignore the this point. I think your response does respond somewhat to all my points.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Problem is, if I decide to believe the LDS, it will be on the principle that their prophets spoke the truth and their holy book relates with history.
Just on these 2 points the LDS fails.
Now how can anyone believe the promise of the LDS upon the afterlife, if their foundations on the current one is a lie?
Do you want to take that chance to deny what jesus said, and to follow a false prophet?
I refuse!
"Take it or leave it"; with the evidence of reasonable propability, I will leave it!

Maybe you should look harder at the evidence, but I'm happy to let you go.

 

[MJFlores]

Israel Khan said: ↑
Even though Jesus was a man, even if one doesn't believe he was God, he was certainly more than a man, and wasn't a man in the usual sense. He pre-existed, didn't have a father and was sinless. The previous scripture you mentioned identifies God as not being a man because he doesn't lie. Jesus was sinless and never lied. So is this certainly more than the qualities precluding God from being a man in Numbers.

John 20:17 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Hebrews 5:5 New International Version (NIV)
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

Again, read the whole of James 1. Nowhere is the text referring to God's physical appearance. God doesn't change in that he doesn't tempt people (verse 12 - 15) and providing good and perfect gifts to his followers (verse 17).

James 1:17 [Reading different versions of the verse]

KJ21
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

ASV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.

AMP
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above; it comes down from the Father of lights [the Creator and Sustainer of the heavens], in whom there is no variation [no rising or setting] or shadow cast by His turning [for He is perfect and never changes].

AMPC
Every good gift and every perfect (free, large, full) gift is from above; it comes down from the Father of all [that gives] light, in [the shining of] Whom there can be no variation [rising or setting] or shadow cast by His turning [as in an eclipse].

BRG
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

CSB
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

CEV
Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father who created all the lights in the heavens. He is always the same and never makes dark shadows by changing.

DLNT
every good gift-giving and every perfect gift-given is from-above, coming down from the Father of lights, with Whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

DRA
Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

ERV
Everything good comes from God. Every perfect gift is from him. These good gifts come down from the Father who made all the lights in the sky. But God never changes like the shadows from those lights. He is always the same.

GW
Every good present and every perfect gift comes from above, from the Father who made the sun, moon, and stars. The Father doesn’t change like the shifting shadows produced by the sun and the moon.

GNT
Every good gift and every perfect present comes from heaven; it comes down from God, the Creator of the heavenly lights, who does not change or cause darkness by turning.

HCSB
Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning.

ICB
Every good action and every perfect gift is from God. These good gifts come down from the Creator of the sun, moon, and stars. God does not change like their shifting shadows.


What is God's appearance by the way????

1 Timothy 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Why is God invisible?????

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”


Is Jesus Christ invisible?
Is Jesus Christ spirit?
Can we have the answers directly from Jesus Christ?

Luke 24:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Is Jesus invisible?
NO

Is Jesus a spirit?
NO

Is Jesus God?
NO

CONCLUSION:
Jesus Christ no matter how people twist the facts.
Whatever opinionated statements made by people.
The Bible says clearly:

1. Jesus has a Father and his Father is the only true God
2. Jesus has flesh and bones therefore he is not a spirit and he is visible
3. Jesus is a special man, and not God.

Even his disciples, like Peter, preached this facts to the Israelites:

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

God said he is not a man
Jesus said he is a man
The apostles said he is a man
Going against the teachings of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ and the apostles makes you - what?

Galatians 1:8 New International Version (NIV)
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

 

[Samael_Khan]

John 20:17 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Hebrews 5:5 New International Version (NIV)
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

So, as per my previous post, we both then agree that these verses exist, but what do they mean? In what sense is God Jesus father? Because my viewpoint rests on Jesus not having a biological father. Would you say then that these scriptures mean that God had sex with Mary and that God is Jesus biological father? If so, then that certainly makes Jesus exceptional and makes him a demigod.

James 1:17 [Reading different versions of the verse]

Unfortunately all these different translations do not address my point. I already showed you scriptures that shows that God has changed in certain aspects and he himself said that he has the possibility changing. So James isn't a blanket statement. You would have to provide me with evidence that says that the physical body of God does not change,

1 Timothy 1:17 New International Version (NIV)

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

From Jesus point of death until now he is invisible as nobody on earth can see him. I would say it refers from a human standpoint since Jesus says that he saw God "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father" - John 6:46. So God is not visible to humans.

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”


Is Jesus Christ invisible?
Is Jesus Christ spirit?
Can we have the answers directly from Jesus Christ?

Luke 24:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:50 - "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." How could Jesus inherit the Kingdom if he was just flesh and blood in your quote? Also, angels are spirits yet they can have a material form, which by reasoning is flesh and blood. So the scriptures do say that Jesus was physically resurrected and at that point he was flesh and blood. But it could be a possibility that he gets transfigured like an angel and becomes a spirit so that he can inherit the kingdom. In Revelation is is clearly shown that Jesus is in heaven where spiritual creatures and God reside. So the topic is much more complicated when reading at the than you make it out to be.

Is Jesus invisible?
NO

At the moment, yes, which is why humans cannot see him.

Is Jesus a spirit?
NO

Probably, since that is the only what he can inherit the Kingdom.

Is Jesus God?
NO

Quite possibly.

CONCLUSION:
Jesus Christ no matter how people twist the facts.
Whatever opinionated statements made by people.
The Bible says clearly:

1. Jesus has a Father and his Father is the only true God
2. Jesus has flesh and bones therefore he is not a spirit and he is visible
3. Jesus is a special man, and not God.

I would say that you are ignoring scriptures and are not aware of the limitations of the verses you are quoting. Rather than twisting the facts, I have shown you the context and the other scriptures that either show you jumping to conclusions beyond strict limitations of what the text actually says, or that contradict your viewpoint. You will have to address those texts as well.

Also, please deal with the texts that I quoted and the reasoning that I used. In order to convince me otherwise you would have to address all my points in depth.

I agree with you. We shouldn't take opinionated statements of people and look at what the book strictly says. Although, in scriptures with open ended conclusions, an opinionated statement is all one can hope for.

 

[MJFlores]

So, as per my previous post, we both then agree that these verses exist, but what do they mean? In what sense is God Jesus father? Because my viewpoint rests on Jesus not having a biological father. Would you say then that these scriptures mean that God had sex with Mary and that God is Jesus biological father? If so, then that certainly makes Jesus exceptional and makes him a demigod.

FROM THE BIBLE [Not from anybody's opinion]

Luke 1:26-39 New International Version (NIV)
In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. For no word from God will ever fail.”

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,

Matthew 1:18-24 New International Version (NIV)
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

Unfortunately all these different translations do not address my point. I already showed you scriptures that shows that God has changed in certain aspects and he himself said that he has the possibility changing. So James isn't a blanket statement. You would have to provide me with evidence that says that the physical body of God does not change,

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

1 Timothy 1:17 Expanded Bible (EXB)
To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

God is described as :

who will never die [immortal; incorruptible]
Did Jesus Christ qualify as the one who will never die?
Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The mere fact that Jesus Christ died 1 Tim 1:17 disqualifies him as having the characteristics of being God.

who cannot be seen [invisible]
Did Jesus Christ qualify as the one who cannot be seen?
Acts 10:39-41 New International Version (NIV)
“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
The mere fact that Jesus Christ was seen by people whom God had already chosen and the mere fact that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead disqualifies Jesus as God.


JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD

 

[MJFlores]

From Jesus point of death until now he is invisible as nobody on earth can see him. I would say it refers from a human standpoint since Jesus says that he saw God "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father" - John 6:46. So God is not visible to humans.

John 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

From Adam to Malachi, no one has seen God
But the Son, made him known and what did Jesus Christ preached about God?

John 4:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 - "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." How could Jesus inherit the Kingdom if he was just flesh and blood in your quote? Also, angels are spirits yet they can have a material form, which by reasoning is flesh and blood. So the scriptures do say that Jesus was physically resurrected and at that point he was flesh and blood. But it could be a possibility that he gets transfigured like an angel and becomes a spirit so that he can inherit the kingdom. In Revelation is is clearly shown that Jesus is in heaven where spiritual creatures and God reside. So the topic is much more complicated when reading at the than you make it out to be.

Acts 1:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

The apostles saw Jesus Christ taken up to heaven
The apostles know that it is the same Jesus Christ who was with them

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

At the moment, yes, which is why humans cannot see him.

I would say that you are ignoring scriptures and are not aware of the limitations of the verses you are quoting. Rather than twisting the facts, I have shown you the context and the other scriptures that either show you jumping to conclusions beyond strict limitations of what the text actually says, or that contradict your viewpoint. You will have to address those texts as well.

Also, please deal with the texts that I quoted and the reasoning that I used. In order to convince me otherwise you would have to address all my points in depth.

I agree with you. We shouldn't take opinionated statements of people and look at what the book strictly says. Although, in scriptures with open ended conclusions, an opinionated statement is all one can hope for.

The Bible is complete and sufficient.
No human has the right to add or take away the words written in the Bible
If it is there, it is written.

Jesus is a MAN
Jesus is the Son of Man
Jesus is the Son of God
Therefore Jesus is NOT GOD

And that is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:47-57 New International Version (NIV)
The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The heavenly man who is Jesus Christ is made up of flesh and bones
He is the exception to the rule - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[SA Huguenot]

John 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

From Adam to Malachi, no one has seen God
But the Son, made him known and what did Jesus Christ preached about God?

John 4:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Acts 1:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

The apostles saw Jesus Christ taken up to heaven
The apostles know that it is the same Jesus Christ who was with them

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

The Bible is complete and sufficient.
No human has the right to add or take away the words written in the Bible
If it is there, it is written.

Jesus is a MAN
Jesus is the Son of Man
Jesus is the Son of God
Therefore Jesus is NOT GOD

And that is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:47-57 New International Version (NIV)
The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The heavenly man who is Jesus Christ is made up of flesh and bones
He is the exception to the rule - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Flores.
Please, It is totally irratable when you post these pictures and banners.
Will you please, pretty please stop doing that?
It realy does not prove your point, but is almost facist like propaganda.
I promise you that if you remove these intimidating stuff, your message will be much more readable.
I hope you understand what I mean.
Greetings

 

[Samael_Khan]

Flores.
Please, It is totally irratable when you post these pictures and banners.
Will you please, pretty please stop doing that?
It realy does not prove your point, but is almost facist like propaganda.
I promise you that if you remove these intimidating stuff, your message will be much more readable.
I hope you understand what I mean.
Greetings

I agree with this. The pictures are irrelevent and distracting.

 

[Samael_Khan]

FROM THE BIBLE [Not from anybody's opinion]

Luke 1:26-39 New International Version (NIV)
In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. For no word from God will ever fail.”

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,

Matthew 1:18-24 New International Version (NIV)
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.



Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

1 Timothy 1:17 Expanded Bible (EXB)
To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

God is described as :

who will never die [immortal; incorruptible]
Did Jesus Christ qualify as the one who will never die?
Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The mere fact that Jesus Christ died 1 Tim 1:17 disqualifies him as having the characteristics of being God.

who cannot be seen [invisible]
Did Jesus Christ qualify as the one who cannot be seen?
Acts 10:39-41 New International Version (NIV)
“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
The mere fact that Jesus Christ was seen by people whom God had already chosen and the mere fact that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead disqualifies Jesus as God.


JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD

So then, again, I will ask you, do you think that God had sex with Mary to make her fall pregnant? You just quoting the verse doesn't help with the answer.

As for Jesus dying, the whole idea of Trinitarians is that God is a spirit and a part of him indwelt a human form. Therefore God himself cannot die as he is a spirit, but the body that a part of God inhabited did die.

As for being invisible, I will quote the verse again: "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father" - John 6:46 Did Jesus or did he not see the Father? As long as this verse isn't addressed, it makes your point about God being completely invisible null. Or it shows a contradiction in the bible.

1 Timothy is 1:17 is interesting because it is written AFTER Jesus died.

As per 1 Corinthians that you quote in the next post: "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." Immortality means that he ill never die. In Isaiah where Jesus is said to be the Eternal Father means that he will never die. 1 Timothy 1:17 doesn't refute Jesus being God as Jesus him self will (a word about the future) never dies\. He died before that verse was quoted, he will never die again after that verse is quoted. Unless you believe that Jesus isn't immortal at this point of time.

 

[MJFlores]

Flores.
Please, It is totally irratable when you post these pictures and banners.
Will you please, pretty please stop doing that?
It realy does not prove your point, but is almost facist like propaganda.
I promise you that if you remove these intimidating stuff, your message will be much more readable.
I hope you understand what I mean.
Greetings

I agree with this. The pictures are irrelevent and distracting.

Pictures makes the verses easy to digest.
It is milk because people do not know the elementary truths of Christ.
As the bible says:

1 Corinthians 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

 

[Samael_Khan]

John 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

OK, just checked multiple translations. I concede your point then. Too many translations agree with you on that verse. And that would be the basis for interpreting all other verses as not being literally God from a christian perspective.

I would say then that if there is no counter argument to this verse using other verses, then Jesus being God falls flat.

I will check my previous posts to confirm this. Or if there are any valid contradictions with that verse.

 

[MJFlores]

So then, again, I will ask you, do you think that God had sex with Mary to make her fall pregnant? You just quoting the verse doesn't help with the answer.

As for Jesus dying, the whole idea of Trinitarians is that God is a spirit and a part of him indwelt a human form. Therefore God himself cannot die as he is a spirit, but the body that a part of God inhabited did die.

As for being invisible, I will quote the verse again: "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father" - John 6:46 Did Jesus or did he not see the Father? As long as this verse isn't addressed, it makes your point about God being completely invisible null. Or it shows a contradiction in the bible.

1 Timothy is 1:17 is interesting because it is written AFTER Jesus died.

As per 1 Corinthians that you quote in the next post: "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." Immortality means that he ill never die. In Isaiah where Jesus is said to be the Eternal Father means that he will never die. 1 Timothy 1:17 doesn't refute Jesus being God as Jesus him self will (a word about the future) never dies\. He died before that verse was quoted, he will never die again after that verse is quoted. Unless you believe that Jesus isn't immortal at this point of time.

John 6:46 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

That is Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ has seen the Father.
So how was it?
What did Jesus Christ talked about the Father?
Surely he has spoken about the Father, because he has seen the Father

John 4:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Indeed that anyone has seen the Father, except Jesus Christ who is from God, Jesus Christ has seen the Father and said the Father is Spirit.

The Father is God
God is Spirit
Jesus Christ is not Spirit
Jesus Christ is not God
There is only ONE GOD, and it is the Father.

 

[JJ50]

John 6:46 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

That is Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ has seen the Father.
So how was it?
What did Jesus Christ talked about the Father?
Surely he has spoken about the Father, because he has seen the Father

John 4:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Indeed that anyone has seen the Father, except Jesus Christ who is from God, Jesus Christ has seen the Father and said the Father is Spirit.

The Father is God
God is Spirit
Jesus Christ is not Spirit
Jesus Christ is not God
There is only ONE GOD, and it is the Father.

A belief not a fact.

 

[MJFlores]

OK, just checked multiple translations. I concede your point then. Too many translations agree with you on that verse. And that would be the basis for interpreting all other verses as not being literally God from a christian perspective.

I would say then that if there is no counter argument to this verse using other verses, then Jesus being God falls flat.

I will check my previous posts to confirm this. Or if there are any valid contradictions with that verse.

This is not a matter of who wins or who loses
This is all about exploring the truth with you and with everybody.
This is the matter of what is true and the centuries of lies preached by the apostate church.
If the TRINITY is the truth and found in the Bible, well then we should follow it.
However if the TRINITY is nonsense then we should ferret out the truth.
Because....

 

[Samael_Khan]

This is not a matter of who wins or who loses
This is all about exploring the truth with you and with everybody.
This is the matter of what is true and the centuries of lies preached by the apostate church.
If the TRINITY is the truth and found in the Bible, well then we should follow it.
However if the TRINITY is nonsense then we should ferret out the truth.
Because....

Exactly. I fully agree with you.

 

[Samael_Khan]

This is not a matter of who wins or who loses
This is all about exploring the truth with you and with everybody.
This is the matter of what is true and the centuries of lies preached by the apostate church.
If the TRINITY is the truth and found in the Bible, well then we should follow it.
However if the TRINITY is nonsense then we should ferret out the truth.
Because....

So, I would like you to sort out these seeming contradictions:

John 1:18 says that nobody has seen God. (A Unitarian would say that this applies to the whole of God. Trinitarians might say that it applies to God in heaven, not when he chooses to manifest himself in the angelic or human form. So then it becomes circumstantial, but at face value and standing alone it would prove the Unitarian point.)

So how would you view these verse and reasonings:

1. John 14:9: Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (I would say this does strengthen the case that Jesus is God. But not in the Trinitarian sense since the Son isn't the Father.)

2. The voice in the Garden of Eden said to be God and the individual appearing to Abraham being called YHWH. They are not called anything else.

3. Jesus is creator:

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Yet God is worthy of worship because he is the creator:

Revelation 4:11, NIV: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.'"

So is Jesus then God and worthy of worship in these verses because he is the creator?

Also In Revelations, the elders and creatures are worshipping bowing down to the throne. Both God and Jesus are on the throne. So isn't it then possible that Jesus is an Avatar of God?

4. In what sense is God Jesus father? You haven't addressed that sufficiently yet.

5. Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’” Can the Son of God be worshipped?

6. John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’" I have heard alternative interpretations of this, but all those use mental gymnastics. He is bowing directly before Jesus and Jesus doesn't rebuke him when he calls him God.

There are various ways of viewing this. I would further ask you:

What are your foundational scriptures to base your interpretation on? And why do you use those as your foundation and not the ones which I quote to as the foundation for the interpretation of your foundational verse.

To me, the unitarian and Trinitarian view isn't sufficient to explain these verses in harmony. There are other views, such as God having many Avatars, which theses verses fit very well into.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Pictures makes the verses easy to digest.
It is milk because people do not know the elementary truths of Christ.
As the bible says:

1 Corinthians 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

yes, that is fine and the thumbnail is very creative.
No problem.
Your posts are already much nicer to read through with less distractions.
Thanks mate!

 

[MJFlores]

1. John 14:9: Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (I would say this does strengthen the case that Jesus is God. But not in the Trinitarian sense since the Son isn't the Father.)

Let us see the whole picture why the Lord Jesus Christ said
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"
Instead of reading one verse we are going to extend the whole message to verse 20

John 14:9-20 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

What did Jesus say?
Did Jesus say that if you see me, you see God - and it means Jesus is God?
Or did Jesus say - The Father is living in me.
The Father is the one speaking through him.
The Father is working in me.
The Father is the one performing the miracles.
That after Jesus is taken up to heaven - he will also be living in them as the Father is in him.

The statements of Jesus are not to be taken literally, because if we were
Part of his statements say: .....I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you
The apostles would be Gods also, particularly apostle Philip

Jesus is NOT GOD
Jesus has performed miraculous works.
But the Lord Jesus Christ said these are the works of the Father working in him.
...it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work

This proves that Jesus is a MAN approved by God through the miracles and wonders, they saw God performed in him.

Acts 2:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true.

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