What is the US interest in Ukraine?

[Stevicus]

This is understandable in a unipolar world. What the world was like after WW2. The world dominated by the US. Now Westerners are becoming a minority. Because China, India and other African and Asian countries are the overwheleming majority of the world population.
So the only way for the West to survive as "actor" of this multipolar world is to treat the EU as equal partner. Because we are all in the same boat.

I think that the US has been thinking far too much in terms of "east" and "west" and not enough on "north" and "south." Actually, we should probably do away with these directional euphemisms to describe what "we" are. I just remember something I heard in regards to the Nicaraguan Revolution and America's involvement with the embattled Somoza regime. The world is not divided into "East" and "West," but "North and South," as the most powerful nations in the world tended to be in the "North" which grew wealthy and powerful by exploiting the countries at more southerly latitudes.

I can understand the idea that the US and EU should be equal partners and that we have multiple shared geopolitical interests. Whether that puts us "all in the same boat" is another matter.

That seems to be one of the struggles within Europe, as they may all be in the same boat, but it's a small and crowded boat.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, but since you know and I trust that you actually know, but don't have the clearance you must be silenced. So as an operative of the deep state, I have reported you and we will take care of you. That is the real Truth.

I should know better than to engage with you. That is utterly pointless as even an exchanges of opinions, because you do that differently than me,

Blessed are those who thirst for justice, for they will be filled.
Matthew 5:6

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think that the US has been thinking far too much in terms of "east" and "west" and not enough on "north" and "south." Actually, we should probably do away with these directional euphemisms to describe what "we" are. I just remember something I heard in regards to the Nicaraguan Revolution and America's involvement with the embattled Somoza regime. The world is not divided into "East" and "West," but "North and South," as the most powerful nations in the world tended to be in the "North" which grew wealthy and powerful by exploiting the countries at more southerly latitudes.

I can understand the idea that the US and EU should be equal partners and that we have multiple shared geopolitical interests. Whether that puts us "all in the same boat" is another matter.

That seems to be one of the struggles within Europe, as they may all be in the same boat, but it's a small and crowded boat.

Yeah, we have more practice in that, but even the world is now getting to be a small and crowded boat and even the USA have to adjust to that.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think that the US has been thinking far too much in terms of "east" and "west" and not enough on "north" and "south." Actually, we should probably do away with these directional euphemisms to describe what "we" are. I just remember something I heard in regards to the Nicaraguan Revolution and America's involvement with the embattled Somoza regime. The world is not divided into "East" and "West," but "North and South," as the most powerful nations in the world tended to be in the "North" which grew wealthy and powerful by exploiting the countries at more southerly latitudes.

I can understand the idea that the US and EU should be equal partners and that we have multiple shared geopolitical interests. Whether that puts us "all in the same boat" is another matter.

That seems to be one of the struggles within Europe, as they may all be in the same boat, but it's a small and crowded boat.

The West is not a geographic term,...because it includes Oceania as well. It's a cultural, social, juridical, historical term.


This is absolutely important because we really are in the same boat, because there's a whole world out there, that wants to overwhelm and replace us, either willfully or unwillingly, it doesn't matter.
The Chinese model is very different than what we have been implementing in the West.

 

[Stevicus]

Yeah, we have more practice in that, but even the world is now getting to be a small and crowded boat and even the USA have to adjust to that.

The West is not a geographic term,...because it includes Oceania as well. It's a cultural, social, juridical, historical term.


This is absolutely important because we really are in the same boat, because there's a whole world out there, that wants to overwhelm and replace us, either willfully or unwillingly, it doesn't matter.
The Chinese model is very different than what we have been implementing in the West.

I should just point out here that, even if I may be situated far away from Europe, I'm still living close to an international border and not as isolated as you might think. So, even my view is not necessarily aligned with that of "Middle America," although I'm pretty well-versed in how that view is commonly expressed and propagated to the people.

My actual view is that the US should try to maintain good relations with the EU, but also concentrate on building better relations with Latin America. Our checkered past with that region of the world has created a great deal of resentment against America, and this can be a potential vulnerability and security weakness if we don't start working harder towards mending fences with our neighbors to the south. We need to "bring them into our boat," so to speak. However, US policy is so heavily Eurocentric that Latin America seems to be considered an afterthought or generally taken for granted, which I believe to be a mistake that could haunt us in the years to come.

 

[Estro Felino]

I should just point out here that, even if I may be situated far away from Europe, I'm still living close to an international border and not as isolated as you might think. So, even my view is not necessarily aligned with that of "Middle America," although I'm pretty well-versed in how that view is commonly expressed and propagated to the people.

My actual view is that the US should try to maintain good relations with the EU, but also concentrate on building better relations with Latin America. Our checkered past with that region of the world has created a great deal of resentment against America, and this can be a potential vulnerability and security weakness if we don't start working harder towards mending fences with our neighbors to the south. We need to "bring them into our boat," so to speak. However, US policy is so heavily Eurocentric that Latin America seems to be considered an afterthought or generally taken for granted, which I believe to be a mistake that could haunt us in the years to come.

The Americas are the West, as well. By the way... Italy and Spain are trying to recover these good relations with Latin America. Just think that 62% of Argentinians have Italian blood. The US should focus on the new continent, rather than wasting money on useless wars in the ME.

 

[lukethethird]

Why would this be the aim of defending a country Russia, itself, attacked? That literally makes no sense.

Russia was goaded into attacking, Putin was stupid enough to fall into a trap. The US wants Russia to get bogged down to the point where they are economically drained. They want a Yelsten type leader in Russia once again so they can have their way with him. Anything to weaken Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russia was goaded into attacking, Putin was stupid enough to fall into a trap. The US wants Russia to get bogged down to the point where they are economically drained. They want a Yelsten type leader in Russia once again so they can have their way with him. Anything to weaken Russia.

Bravissimo, exactly.
They want to replace Putin with a leader that gives them Gazprom. They will dismember the Russian Federation. Divide and conquer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Russia was goaded into attacking,

Nope. Russia has been meddling with Ukraine for years and annexing its territory. Nobody goaded them. I also find it hilarious that you claim to be "anti-war" and yet seem to think that it's not Russia's fault when THEY INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY AND START A WAR.

Putin was stupid enough to fall into a trap.

It wasn't a trap. Putin decided to invade.

The US wants Russia to get bogged down to the point where they are economically drained.

The US did not have any part in the decision to invade.

They want a Yelsten type leader in Russia once again so they can have their way with him. Anything to weaken Russia.

This is just baseless conspiracy nonsense.

Meanwhile, there is decades worth of evidence of Russia meddling with Ukraine, annexing Ukraine, and Putin talking about wanting to secure Ukrainian territory.

At this stage, you are just in denial.


And yet again you have completely avoided responding to, or even acknowledging, the facts I presented that demonstrate that you have presented a dishonest, biased view of Ukraine's recent history.

I can only assume you cannot answer for them.

So, here they are again. Another crash course on Ukraine's recent history with Russia:

1 - Lugansk and Donetsk only "declared their independence" after an extremely overt operation by Russia to install and fund Russian separatists in the region. They are effectively astro-turf organisations that exist entirely as a consequence of Russia. It is hardly surprising that these areas suddenly "totally democratically" elected to become unofficial parts of Russia following them being taken over by separatists armed and supported by Russia at Russia's orders.

Russian separatist forces in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Captured Russian troops 'in Ukraine by accident'

Russian soldiers captured in eastern Ukraine crossed the border "by accident", Russian sources say, as a key summit is held in Belarus.

www.bbc.co.uk

2 - Crimea was militarily invaded by Russia. See above. As Russia has repeatedly revealed in their own elections, any genuinely "democratic" component of any vote taking place under any Russian occupied territory is suspect, to say the least.

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Declaration of Independence of the Republic of Crimea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3 - There was no "coup" against Yanukovich. He was democratically elected, yes, but then proceeded to reject an EU trade agreement that had been in the works for years and instead adopt stronger economic ties with Russia at the urging of Russia - something that was apparently extremely unpopular with the people of Ukraine because it lead to mass protests against Yanukovich (combined with his criminal prosecution of the opposition leader at the time). In response, Yanukovich signed a slieu of anti-protest laws which directly lead to police killing several protesters. In consequence to the reaction, he fled to Russia.

Euromaidan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I will keep posting this until you acknowledge it.

 

[Kathryn]

So what do you think America should do to prioritise its own people that would necessarily require the end of supplying arms to Ukraine?

Heck if I know - that's not my circus and not my monkeys to be honest. I'm fine. My family is fine. I just think it's a shame that we're wasting tax dollars, and yes I do consider it a waste.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Heck if I know - that's not my circus and not my monkeys to be honest.

I love this turn of phrase and will immediately adopt it in my personal life.

I'm fine. My family is fine. I just think it's a shame that we're wasting tax dollars, and yes I do consider it a waste.

Why do you consider it a waste to prevent Ukraine being invaded by Russia?

 

[Kathryn]

I love this turn of phrase and will immediately adopt it in my personal life.


Why do you consider it a waste to prevent Ukraine being invaded by Russia?

I consider our moral umbrage to be quite selective.

 

[Kathryn]

I love this turn of phrase and will immediately adopt it in my personal life.

My dad used to say "I do not accept the care and feeding of this monkey" and we always knew exactly what he meant when he said that!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I consider our moral umbrage to be quite selective.

Of course it is. But that's not an excuse to not do a good thing when it's in your geopolitical interest. In this case, America's geopolitical interests happen to have aligned with an action that also happens to be the morally right thing to do.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I consider our moral umbrage to be quite selective.

Yeah, that is so of most humans and not unique to some special culture.

 

[Kathryn]

Of course it is. But that's not excuse to not do a good thing when it's in your geopolitical interest. In this case, America's geopolitical interests happen to have aligned with an action that also happens to be the morally right thing to do.

I am just so tired of moral umbrage stoked by our media. I don't see anyone in any powerful positions saying that we have geopolitical reasons for supporting Ukraine. I only see moral outrage regarding "a sovereign country being attacked by Russia." Oh, and how the Ukrainian people are suffering. Color me skeptical.

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah, that is so of most humans and not unique to some special culture.

Don't make it right.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Don't make it right.

Well, good luck with that one if you try to find an universal, objective standard for that.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, good luck with that one if you try to find an universal, objective standard for that.

I'm just trying to live a decent, trouble free life.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am just so tired of moral umbrage stoked by our media. I don't see anyone in any powerful positions saying that we have geopolitical reasons for supporting Ukraine. I only see moral outrage regarding "a sovereign country being attacked by Russia."

That's politics. If you want to wait around for a world leader to openly say "I am doing this thing for geopolitical reasons and not for any moral reasons" you're going to be waiting forever. Countries never do anything purely for altruism - they do things that benefit them. In this case, Ukraine being open to western trade and business is in America's geopolitical interest; the fact that this also benefits Ukraine is a bonus.

You don't have to think America are the good guys in order to still accept that the consequence of a given action - even if the intentions were not altruistic - are still preferable to the alternatives. A free Ukraine that is amenable to western business interests is a better global and moral outcome than Ukraine becoming a vassal state of Putin's far-right totalitarian empire.